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On August 02 2013 02:21 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote:
Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies. What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge. Let me get this straight. You're recruiting players for the express purpose of giving those players to another team, whose captains you are appointing. If you were a single team, faithfully pursuing its own affairs, the scenario would be: "Well, we have a full roster. There's no point in recruiting more because our roster is more than complete. All of you might not get play time, so if you wanna leave/form your own team/look for another team that's fine." Instead you have a direct hand in the inception and organization (recruiting manpower and appointing leadership) of another team, and try to play it off as an organic, naturally occurring split? You're telling us plain as day that this is all part of your plan, and you expect us to think, "Oh he somehow came by way too many players for his team that already has a full roster, when every other team in the league is struggling to complete their roster or have any players left to draft." I don't think you're trying to be abusive, but I hope I've illustrated how unfair your proposition could appear to the other remaining teams.
No, the new players I'm recruiting from now on are going to Team Stealth Bunnies, not to whatever team Arca/Marine create. I don't know how you think an organic, naturally occurring split would happen otherwise. I didn't appoint Arca and Marine, I asked several members of the team if they would be willing to separate with some of the players to create a new team, and Arca and Marine responded. Sure I have a hand in the split, but just because it's a controlled split doesn't mean it's bad in some way.
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On August 02 2013 05:23 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:21 EchOne wrote:On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote:
Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies. What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge. Let me get this straight. You're recruiting players for the express purpose of giving those players to another team, whose captains you are appointing. If you were a single team, faithfully pursuing its own affairs, the scenario would be: "Well, we have a full roster. There's no point in recruiting more because our roster is more than complete. All of you might not get play time, so if you wanna leave/form your own team/look for another team that's fine." Instead you have a direct hand in the inception and organization (recruiting manpower and appointing leadership) of another team, and try to play it off as an organic, naturally occurring split? You're telling us plain as day that this is all part of your plan, and you expect us to think, "Oh he somehow came by way too many players for his team that already has a full roster, when every other team in the league is struggling to complete their roster or have any players left to draft." I don't think you're trying to be abusive, but I hope I've illustrated how unfair your proposition could appear to the other remaining teams. No, the new players I'm recruiting from now on are going to Team Stealth Bunnies, not to whatever team Arca/Marine create. I don't know how you think an organic, naturally occurring split would happen otherwise. I didn't appoint Arca and Marine, I asked several members of the team if they would be willing to separate with some of the players to create a new team, and Arca and Marine responded. Sure I have a hand in the split, but just because it's a controlled split doesn't mean it's bad in some way.
They're still being recruited under the assumption that your 2-team plan is undermanned. If you didn't project the creation of another team, your current roster would be more than sufficient.
To give an example of a natural split: At the end of DRTL1, GaoXi and I decided we wanted to play on our own team. We talked to absolutely no one on our original team, requested none of their players, and simply left and independently recruited people to form Team Courage.
Anyways I just wanted to make the situation clear.
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Why are you people even bothering, its already obvious what hes doing, and its also obvious that the powers that be don't give a shit.
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I just want to play with my courageous friends, but they don't want to:[
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I want to play with tonight, but I love Courage too much to possibly join any other team. <3
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Give DeSPA arca and themarine oh benevolent one! They can ACTUALLY be in a different team with players you didn't sign-on cos of skill or association. Was losing that bad that you have too create this plan b too help?
Theres no garanutee the team will even last the season. At least with despa were closeknit and FOCUSED enough not too disband, noshow or worse cheat(leak lineups..etc).
All i really see is greedy captain birdie not sharing the new talent with his league-mates cos of what? Huh?
Fuck..... 3 more players my ass...... 11 is plenty for a team. 7 is barely one. Think.
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On August 02 2013 06:58 Sentenal wrote:
Why are you people even bothering, its already obvious what hes doing, and its also obvious that the powers that be don't give a shit.
If you actually think Birdie is trying to create and make another team for the express purpose of rigging it so he can pick up an extra win or two in a D Ranks League that has no prize whatsoever you are absolutely out of your mind and overdosing on conspiracy theories. Not to mention I play in this league, on a DIFFERENT team than sB.
Guys, this a fucking D Ranks league. It that exists for the purpose of having fun, giving players an incentive to improve, and to provide a place to get a little experience playing under pressure and in the limelight. The fact that we are even discussing something as off the wall absurd as a captain trying to cheat in such an indirect way as making a new team for some free wins is beyond retarded. Ignoring the fact that I would confidently lay down 10k on the fact that Birdie has zero intentions of cheating, I will go one step further and say EVEN if he was doing this expressly to cheat it really doesn't matter.
Who. Gives. A. Flying. Fuck.
Just practice and beat their ass. Jury rigging can't help you win the finals.
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Canada11350 Posts
Well if there are any sneaky shenanigans, I'll be sure to let you all know. I just joined the Stealth Bunnies.
Fear my not so good Protoss!
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Beating them isn't the issue. You yourself seemed to think a single person running two teams was an "absolute, hard no way in hell." But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true". Well, we actually have standards and principles as to what rules are conductive for fair competitive play that we stand on, and DRTL no longer meets them. But thanks for calling me retarded and out of my mind. That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
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On August 02 2013 03:06 art_of_turtle wrote:
Despa is probably on the bare minimum amount of players to compete this time around, but if we can get Miss.Click, and tonight, and if Draw takes me up on my bet if I win captains tourny he would coach Despa, there could be some balance.
I doubt Click will just walk away from TAKK to join rejoin DeSPA O.o It might be more noble of her to join a team with lesser players, but it's her team and no reason except for nobility to walk away.
On August 02 2013 08:35 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 06:58 Sentenal wrote:
Why are you people even bothering, its already obvious what hes doing, and its also obvious that the powers that be don't give a shit. If you actually think Birdie is trying to create and make another team for the express purpose of rigging it so he can pick up an extra win or two in a D Ranks League that has no prize whatsoever you are absolutely out of your mind and overdosing on conspiracy theories. Not to mention I play in this league, on a DIFFERENT team than sB. Guys, this a fucking D Ranks league. It that exists for the purpose of having fun, giving players an incentive to improve, and to provide a place to get a little experience playing under pressure and in the limelight. The fact that we are even discussing something as off the wall absurd as a captain trying to cheat in such an indirect way as making a new team for some free wins is beyond retarded. Ignoring the fact that I would confidently lay down 10k on the fact that Birdie has zero intentions of cheating, I will go one step further and say EVEN if he was doing this expressly to cheat it really doesn't matter. Who. Gives. A. Flying. Fuck. Just practice and beat their ass. Jury rigging can't help you win the finals.
Eh, this logic can always be interpreted different ways... One way is the way you see it, there's no prize for winning other than bragging rights so just shut up and play. But another way is yes, there's no prize for winning, so why play at all and/or make any effort to make the league legitimately organized if one can simply just play amongst their friends?
In my opinion, I think the ideal choice would be to yes, make the split, but if Echo/Sentenal will be okay with the fact that Birdie will absolutely take no part in the split team in drafts, lineups, etc, that Courage will play in DRTL. I'm not saying this to insult Birdie's trust or say Courage should absolutely play, but we should end up with a compromise so that everyone can play. From Courage's point of view, if Stealth Bunnies do have 11 players and don't draft anymore, there will be several players that will only be able to play about 1-3 times the entire season, if every player is rotated, so the split should be understandable. From Stealth Bunnies/Birdie's point of view, Courage, and other teams/players, it can only be natural that the people might expect some type of cheating/foul play over those that they don't really know personally well.
I just think a compromise can always be in order to have everyone play. Again, I'm not bashing on Birdie for purposely doing this to piss off Courage or bashing on Courage on being too sensitive about the situation, I just think it's best to see this from both point of views and make a solution instead of arguing whether or not this person is right or wrong.
Edit: Yay, my 1000th post.
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if league is for fun, and people deliberately rig league, that makes the league less fun for everyone else. so yes, you should give a shit
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Why cant we just move ahead with our possibly paranoid suspicions [I have them as well] and do our best to ascertain whether games are being thrown as the season goes ahead? Its possible games can be thrown even before this, we always sort of tacitly have to rely on not only the honour of the players involved, but the potential for random observers to analyze and spot gamethrowing when it does occur.
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D rank players make mistakes that would be incredibly obvious throws on their own though.... How to tell difference if someone forgot to make scvs or rally them?
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On August 02 2013 10:34 rauk wrote:
D rank players make mistakes that would be incredibly obvious throws on their own though.... How to tell difference if someone forgot to make scvs or rally them?
Exactly, as evidenced by Kai/gorg's game in DRIT, players throw games in hilarious fashion half the time. Also, see Arca vs nagisama in Game 5. Huge economic/army lead all thrown away, highlighted by the sexy double EMP whiff.
![[image loading]](http://templesiege.com/images/naguuuusmall.gif)
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No one on the other team will have a reason to cheat other than Birdie asking them to. The new recruits do not know Birdie; why would they decide to lose so that he can win? The only cheating which could take place seems to be Arca/TheMarine throwing their games or sharing lineups with Birdie, which they have no incentive to do. Arca and Marine are not going to cheat so that they can lose.
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On August 02 2013 08:58 Sentenal wrote:
But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true".
That was posted with minimal thought and in agitation. It was a dumb statement.
On August 02 2013 08:58 Sentenal wrote:
Beating them isn't the issue. You yourself seemed to think a single person running two teams was an "absolute, hard no way in hell." But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true". Well, we actually have standards and principles as to what rules are conductive for fair competitive play that we stand on, and DRTL no longer meets them. But thanks for calling me retarded and out of my mind. That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
First, I did not call you retarded. I do think you are being ridiculous in this situation, but just because I think you are being unreasonable in this situation does not, by extension, mean that I think that you are ridiculous/dumb/retarded or any other negative adjective overall. Whenever I talk to you, I always feel like I have to tip-toe very heavily or sugarcoat what I am saying to avoid offending you, as to me it seems you find insult very easily in things that are said.
Let me offer you two explanations:
A)sB has 11 players, and some of them would like more play time. Birdie, being their friend/teammate, wants to help out and so offers to captain a team. Most players in DRTL don't like this idea, and as such Birdie decides the best resolution is to have separate teams/roster/captain. However, he is still friends with the guys that are going to split off, and thus is happy to spend some helping his buddies find players, a perfectly normal reaction
B)Birdie decides he wants to cheat (despite ZERO evidence to indicate he would do so). He decides the best way to cheat would be to split his squad into two (with some of his better players going to the new squad?), so that the "B" squad can throw some of the games vs the A squad, to help the A squad make the playoffs.
You really think option B is more a realistic possibility than option A? I just don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion and would ask:
1) What evidence do you have to think Birdie would cheat?
2) If cheating were his goal, why would he put several of sB's key players on his B squad dividing the talent in two?
3) The majority (5+) of the players on the so called "sB B" would be new recruits with no previous association with Birdie. Why would they have any interest in conspiring to such cheating?
That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
I'm fairly professional, and quite reasonable, in how I conduct this league. I'm not sure you would find many who disagree. That said, I'm pretty tired of lame drama. It ruins leagues, ruins the community, and is generally cancerous, unpleasant, and a pain in the ass. I put a significant amount of time and effort into these leagues, and don't really have much patience for drama. Reasonable discussion is one thing, but we do not have that here. We have unfounded accusations.
Occam's Razor, and common sense, give no reason to indicate that Birdie is trying to cheat. Until someone gives me a reasonable argument, essentially consisting of answers to the three questions I posed earlier I don't really want to hear any more of the issue because all we have so far is "we think Birdie is trying to cheat".
On July 31 2013 02:39 t0ssboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 01:38 Sentenal wrote:On July 31 2013 01:20 L_Master wrote:On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote:
Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him. Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK. We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation. Stop being butthurt for 1 minute and listen. Arca/Me are going to captain the other team seperatly without birdie's guidance/commands/help.Jesus Christ,i'd have an easier time winning an argument against a brick wall than winning it against you.
I have it there from marine, and I also have Birdie personally telling me the same thing. That is, this new team is NOT sB "B" being run by Birdie. It's a new team, with primarily new recruits, run by different people.
Birdie, nor Arca/Marine, have given me ANY reason whatsoever to think I should doubt their word. They have never shown a hint of being untrustworthy.
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I'll also put this one more way. If I ruled against players from sB being allowed to split off and start a new team with a new roster, I would be setting a precedent I think is very bad, and it is this:
RP (Random Player) joins a team he is recruited into. His captain goes gung-ho on recruiting and the team becomes too big. RP decides it sucks that he doesn't get to play anymore and wants to start his own team. By ruling against the new team started by sB players, I'm saying that players can never leave their own team. As such RP is now perma-fucked by association with the team he initially joined.
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GOTTA STOP DAT RECROOTING.
And eh, like I said, I think it's pointless now to even bother arguing whether this is right or that is right. Either we go with the one we got right now, or we set a compromise to let everyone play.
But as I wanna say again, really, Birdie's goal to field more D-/D players couldn't be any more bullshit than what it is. During DRTL 4, him and TheMarine played 7 out of 8 weeks during the DRTL 4 season. icedraco and Arca played more than any other player except for the two the played 7 times, two players who are in the D+/C- range. Yes, he didn't play 3 players out of his 12-man roster, so what's to say he won't have inactives again this season, even with his supposed 11 going on 14?
If his 14 is split in two, it goes to 7 (Right? Because 14 divided by 2 is 7). However, even with more than 7 players, several teams had a hard time getting their games in on time or not getting it in at all. What would we do in the situation where Stealth Bunnies A team starts to have more than two players go inactive? Simply give more players to Stealth Bunnies A because they decided to split for the good of the league? That would just monopolize the free agents to Stealth Bunnies, leaving no other players for smaller teams.
Birdie had 12 players, yet fielded 9 last DRTL. I'm pretty sure if his players had legitimate complaints about not playing, he would've fielded himself and TheMarine lesser amount of times and fielded others instead. Birdie says he has 11 players... How different is that from his 12-man roster? Only one difference.
I dunno, now that I see it, unless you have a total of 20 players and planning on dividing 10 each, I don't see a good way of splitting up your team in a way where you can absolutely minimize the chances of walkovers/games not being played. I'm not against or for the split, I'm just saying lets actually think about it before going headfirst and setting up a ton of postponements and making a mess like last DRTL.
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QUESTIONS NEED THAT NEED TO BE ADRESSED PLEASE!!
- what about this draft situation? when will official draft take place?
-So the format is lineup 4 playersa/maps + decide ace player on the spot if necessary correct?
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EPT
