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On February 23 2012 19:01 Ryo wrote:
Guemchi has joined ACE.
Wait... when? O.O
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On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^.
The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC?
No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki.
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On February 23 2012 19:01 Ryo wrote:
Guemchi has joined ACE.
That's serious news! I'm glad I popped back into this thread.
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On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki.
Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed.
On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax.
The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame.
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On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame.
Flash said that build works 90% of the time the first time he used it. How can that just be luck then?
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On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame.
You can sugar coat it all you want, it was not a metagame mind-game. Bisu messed up his wall, SK saw that and punished him for it, there is absolutely nothing metagame/mindgame about it. If it was so 'meta/mindgame' then do you think SK would have gone for the bust if Bisu used the pylon as part of his wall? No, that would be idiotic to try and bust that
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On February 24 2012 01:17 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. Flash said that build works 90% of the time the first time he used it. How can that just be luck then?
That might be more Flash than the build being good :D
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On February 24 2012 01:17 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. Flash said that build works 90% of the time the first time he used it. How can that just be luck then?
Some things get lost in translation..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313329¤tpage=14
[04:21] <@nalho> A - but 95% it would work if it wasnt scouted
He waited until he had 3 marines before he attacked so if it was scouted earlier, Best would have had some time to prepare.
Furthermore, Best had his buildings clumped (which is stated in the interview too) so we may have seen a different game if the buildings were spread out a lil more and range finished.
But having said that, I don't know how useful it would have been for Best to scout the mid barracks at the point he sent his probe (which was at a point where his cybernetics was almost finished and Flash was making his 3rd marine).
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On February 24 2012 07:33 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. You can sugar coat it all you want, it was not a metagame mind-game. Bisu messed up his wall, SK saw that and punished him for it, there is absolutely nothing metagame/mindgame about it. If it was so 'meta/mindgame' then do you think SK would have gone for the bust if Bisu used the pylon as part of his wall? No, that would be idiotic to try and bust that
Wasn't it too early to gauge the strength of Bisu's wall when SK placed the hatchery at 3 o'clock? He may have adapted the build for speedlings after observing the wall-in and lack of second cannon, but it seems clear SK always had aggression/all-in/cheese in mind by putting down that expansion towards the toss base.
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On February 24 2012 10:53 Jragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 07:33 Dakkas wrote:On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. You can sugar coat it all you want, it was not a metagame mind-game. Bisu messed up his wall, SK saw that and punished him for it, there is absolutely nothing metagame/mindgame about it. If it was so 'meta/mindgame' then do you think SK would have gone for the bust if Bisu used the pylon as part of his wall? No, that would be idiotic to try and bust that Wasn't it too early to gauge the strength of Bisu's wall when SK placed the hatchery at 3 o'clock? He may have adapted the build for speedlings after observing the wall-in and lack of second cannon, but it seems clear SK always had aggression/all-in/cheese in mind by putting down that expansion towards the toss base.
All that meant is that he was intending to do an aggressive early game
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United States7639 Posts
On February 24 2012 10:53 Jragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 07:33 Dakkas wrote:On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. You can sugar coat it all you want, it was not a metagame mind-game. Bisu messed up his wall, SK saw that and punished him for it, there is absolutely nothing metagame/mindgame about it. If it was so 'meta/mindgame' then do you think SK would have gone for the bust if Bisu used the pylon as part of his wall? No, that would be idiotic to try and bust that Wasn't it too early to gauge the strength of Bisu's wall when SK placed the hatchery at 3 o'clock? He may have adapted the build for speedlings after observing the wall-in and lack of second cannon, but it seems clear SK always had aggression/all-in/cheese in mind by putting down that expansion towards the toss base.
Indeed it was. His overlord had yet to reach Bisu's natural before he planted down the 3rd hatch. On the other hand, SK would probably still have gone for the ling attack, even if Bisu had built the in line pylon, as it takes 2 zealots to block the choke off, and Bisu only had 1 with no probe support. So the pylon was actually somewhat of a non-factor. Bisu was fooled into thinking SK was going for a macro game instead of an aggressive early attack and didn't think he'd need to immediately block the choke off with probes or build extra cannons. Still, it makes one wonder, why on earth would you even come out on a map like Ground Zero if you don't know how to make the standard FFE wall for it? :|
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Aggressive hatch placement in ZvP is never about going for a ling runby. It's usually done for some sort of hydra build, either early game or mid-game. speedling rush is almost always a response to protoss having holes in his defense. It doesn't work as a build because the protoss can easily prevent it through good scouting or 2 cannons or probe block.
Soulkey's build isn't some sort of new ZvP play or jedi mind trick. He saw an opportunity for a quick win and went for it. Happens all the time.
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United States11393 Posts
On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame.
It takes advantage of the fact that Best always waits till he makes core before scouting.
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This season is all cheese and no substance.
It gets tiresome.
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On February 24 2012 13:17 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:41 Musou wrote:On February 23 2012 23:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 23 2012 22:15 Sawamura wrote:
Well no point making all the pointless rage at kiett because she is the one who created the LR thread and design so she is the boss . Nonetheless, it may be a little bias because of her rage at people recommending the game where bisu lost and the other two games which were not . Still I can't bite the hand that feeds me right ? ^_^. The only bias was the results of that poll, so put your snarky comments elsewhere. T1 fan or not, can you objectively say that is a good game of Starcraft? Is that a game that you would want friends to watch? A game to introduce people to the world of SC? No, it's not. The poll was a result was simply the result of mass-hatred and disdain towards one player, not because the game was good. Now because you call me out for being a fanboy, I'll like to point out that I greatly disliked the game where Bisu cannon-rushed Wooki. Cannon rushing is pure cheese. What SK did was a high level mindgame. Would I recommend it for introducing someone to BW? Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand the subtleties of the game. Would I recommend it to friends who enjoy strategy? Absolutely. It was a brilliant play. Similarly, I would recommend the Flash vs Jaedong game where Flash rolled over JD with 5 marines, a medic, and a firebat, because he hit a specific timing exploiting JD's greed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend the Flash vs Best game where Flash 7raxed into bunker rushing, because that was basically luck that Best's probe walked right past the forward rax. The majority of the people who voted on the poll were probably simply Bisu anti-fans, but personally I recommended it because it was a unique build which exploited the current metagame. It takes advantage of the fact that Best always waits till he makes core before scouting.
Man Flash is just too smart...He rarely plays a macro game vs Stork and Best,he usually goes for some early aggression/cheese and wins outright or gets nice advantage... At the moment Fantasy seems like the only person who can beat him.
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During the last year Flash proved he can beat Best in any way.
Now he just wants to get the longest winning streak and/or win all his proleague games. That's why he uses every chance to win the game.
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On February 24 2012 13:24 Lightwip wrote:
This season is all cheese and no substance.
It gets tiresome.
There wasn't a single cheese in this series. You can say the decision-making in this series has been very suspect. But they weren't cheeses.
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EPT
