EPTThere is no moral scale of the league, stop trying to paint it that way. It's just rude to whoever you're calling evil for no reason.
[SPL] STX Soul VS KT Rolster - Page 6
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
There is no moral scale of the league, stop trying to paint it that way. It's just rude to whoever you're calling evil for no reason. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 17 2012 20:45 malignant wrote: But Snape is + Show Spoiler + a good guy working undercover... + Show Spoiler + BUT SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 20:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how Mustaju is arguing fervently that his team is worse. KT won back to back titles, guys, they're the evil dynasty. Though I think people are taking it too far with "forced their own players to retire" and "They do nothing but buy players!!!" stuff. Unfortunately, that's what buying players means - your own rookies and old guard get less playtime. While I was a bit exaggerating for dramatic effect, I do feel my points are valid. Also, despite me arguing that we are the underdog, I still think we can win.  | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
For instance, Reach didn't "suddenly" retire. He's as old as old guard gets. Stop painting them as some diabolical organization. If you're saying you're the underdog, you're saying you're worse. That's what an underdog is. It doesn't matter if you "think" they can win. You're implicitly saying they have less chance of winning. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 20:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: I cannot possibly fathom how you guys associate evil and good with teams of koreans who play videogames. There is no moral scale of the league, stop trying to paint it that way. It's just rude to whoever you're calling evil for no reason. Take it one step further and you can argue there is no morality at all. Good and Evil are terms used to describe positive and negative things in every kind of context, and sports is no exception. Is it oversimplified and nonsensical in a universal scale? Yes. I'd still argue that it holds as much validity to assign these judgements to teams as it does to cheer for the players in the first place. Both are emotional responses representing value systems, and I sincerely believe that 2 teams having better funding than the others created a worse environment for Proleague. According to my own judgement, my responses are within acceptable parametres regarding the emotional premise of the argument itself. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 17 2012 20:55 mustaju wrote: Take it one step further and you can argue there is no morality at all. Good and Evil are terms used to describe positive and negative things in every kind of context, and sports is no exception. Is it oversimplified and nonsensical in a universal scale? Yes. I'd still argue that it holds as much validity to assign these judgements to teams as it does to cheer for the players in the first place. Both are emotional responses representing value systems, and I sincerely believe that 2 teams having better funding than the others created a worse environment for Proleague. According to my own judgement, my responses are within acceptable parametres regarding the emotional premise of the argument itself. This is so convoluted. Do you actually believe KT is evil, honestly? Like I usually brush off the "X team is evil! Y Team is heroes!" as just jovial taunting on the forums but this thread devolved into some intentionally brandishing chat that comes across as ridiculous to me. I mean I've called SKT evil plenty of times but they're not actually evil, that'd be dumb. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: This is so convoluted. Do you actually believe KT is evil, honestly? On a universal scale? Of course not. That would be stupid. Noone honestly compares Bisu to Pol Pot. In the context of Proleague? Sure I could. Doesn't seem far fetched at all for me to claim that KT has influenced Proleague in a negative way. I don't think KT is evil myself, but I see how one can make the argument. I do however believe that if you had to pick an evil side and a good side from a STX-KT match, KT has a lot more negative things associated with it. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
There's lots of dumb, irrelevant crap people come up with but there's no "Evil in context" thing. It's "I like this team more so I root for them and taunt the other team" not "here is a list of things I hate about this team and why they are evil without context". Like, I'm totally cool with "I don't like KT because they've won the last two championships and I'd like to see my team/another team do it." This is how KT fans were two years ago, and it's how I feel in plenty of other sports I watch. But none of this stuff is evil. If it is then every team is evil because they all have the same goal in mind. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you make the argument then you're dumb. How many players who got dumped from folded teams did STX pick up? Oh, what's that, your team wanted to trade EVERYONE for underperforming last season? What callous monsters! There's lots of dumb, irrelevant crap people come up with but there's no "Evil in context" thing. It's "I like this team more so I root for them and taunt the other team" not "here is a list of things I hate about this team and why they are evil without context". How do you really justify differentiating the two? I see no substantive difference, only different degrees of emotional investment. As far as the trade argument goes, I never justified or endorsed that. Fortunately, it never came to that and I feel the team is better for it. Also, the team manager expressly stated they would only do player-for-player trades, which I think is a bit better than imbalancing proleague when only money affects trades. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
For instance on your last point, "only money" no only affects every action in every sport, but it is the only important factor in all of the actions. The baseline for ALL of them is managing how much money you're allowed to spend (whether it's self enforced or league enforced). KT isn't evil, STX isn't good. They're companies sponsoring a fun little niche league of little consequence. Until they start flagrantly supporting bad things or people who do bad things, then it's a moot point. | ||
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KenNage
Chile885 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
You be offtopic'ing | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:41 Iplaythings wrote: You be offtopic'ing Welcome to an LR thread before the game, there's no topic because there's nothing live yet. We're discussing the two teams, albeit in a roundabout philosophical way. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't, I think it's dumb trying to black and white every move made by every team. For instance on your last point, "only money" no only affects every action in every sport, but it is the only important factor in all of the actions. The baseline for ALL of them is managing how much money you're allowed to spend (whether it's self enforced or league enforced). KT isn't evil, STX isn't good. They're companies sponsoring a fun little niche league of little consequence. Until they start flagrantly supporting bad things or people who do bad things, then it's a moot point. In my opinion, you are overvalueing the importance of money, but seeing as you support KT, I'm not all that surprised. While money is important, there are also other considerations, and my value system system places greater emphasis on balanced leagues and long term team loyalty than "Cash makes right." Call it Idealism vs. Pragmatism. KT can be seen as evil, STX can be seen as good, morality just works that way thanks to subjectivism. Extremes are stupid, but it is that way. In this context, we bring forward artificial extremes, and seeing as we are mostly strongly emotionally invested in this niche scene, we form strong value judgements that can be simplified in more everyday words. I am emotionally invested, so I follow suit, and express my sympathies and antipathy in common archetypes such as good and evil in metaphors such as STX= Rocky, KT= Drago. See it as sort of a mental exercise as opposed to how seriously you are apparently taking this analysis of traits. Or dismiss it altogether, I don't care. I'm just arguing for the fun of it. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On January 17 2012 18:21 Sawamura wrote: Why is kt the bad guy  we were supposed to be rocky and stx is suppose to be the draco ..Yeah rocky is the underdog and drago the baller russian who can chew steel. You should be happy. I hope stx can win this :D | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:53 mustaju wrote: In my opinion, you are overvalueing the importance of money, but seeing as you support KT, I'm not all that surprised. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm out of here. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:41 Iplaythings wrote: TwoToneTerran and mustaju should just both agree that this match is awesome and that SKT1 is the bad guys. I think we're agreed on that point, isn't that right, TTT? | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On January 17 2012 21:59 mustaju wrote: I think we're agreed on that point, isn't that right, TTT? To call SKT evil is to hate Boxer. You're killing e-sports | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51706 Posts
whats this TTT is bailing on an argument? now i've seen everything. no mustaju KT is not evil, they are just winning, if you want to look at it from a moral standpoint ask KT being evil and STX being good or whatever be my guest, but it accomplishes nothing other than to negatively affect KT fans which in itself bad. negativity breeds negativity. this also applies to SKT fans or any other team fans but, SKT fans they love being treated that way, at least most of them do( I don't want to over generalize).. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On January 17 2012 22:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: whats this TTT is bailing on an argument? now i've seen everything. no mustaju KT is not evil, they are just winning, if you want to look at it from a moral standpoint ask KT being evil and STX being good or whatever be my guest, but it accomplishes nothing other than to negatively affect KT fans which in itself bad. negativity breeds negativity. this also applies to SKT fans or any other team fans but, SKT fans they love being treated that way. On January 17 2012 21:09 mustaju wrote: (...)I don't think KT is evil myself, but I see how one can make the argument. (...) | ||
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