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tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
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On July 17 2010 16:21 Iplaythings wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2010 16:18 Valentine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with. Do you play Starcraft? So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Mutalisks. Look 'em up. What was Baby going to do to hold them off at such an early point in the game? And he had to protect two bases, no less.
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On July 17 2010 16:21 Iplaythings wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2010 16:18 Valentine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with. Do you play Starcraft? So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Actually if Baby actually scouted, Hyun would stop pumping lings...
That's how you are supposed to play that build, it's a yarnc style 2hat mutaling with speed and lair gotten relatively quickly, it transitions smoothly into 2hat muta unless you suicide all your lings, but to be fair, all the games I saw on match point with this build(Kwanro vs Light, Effort vs Flash) had the zerg player winning with just the lings and a pure ling follow up. I'm sure its not a complete all in at the ling part, it transitions to a 2hat muta.
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On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote:
tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
tvz has always been a fucking joke
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On July 17 2010 16:24 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote:
tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though tvz has always been a fucking joke
wat.
You must be joking.
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On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail.
That's what cheese is? So if you scout 12hatch ZvZ with your 9pool you are cheesing by attacking? He is giving you a timing where he has late ass lings that you can exploit, is he not? If you are seriously telling me 9pool is cheese in ZvZ I'm not even going to bother replying. Cheese is not situational. If you are cheesing you are doing some gimmicky play in the early game. 9pool is not cheese if the other person happens to go overpool ZvZ, so how does it suddenly turn in to a "cheese" depending on their build?
And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so.
Well seeing as I disagree with your horrible definition above I don't find punishing someone because they are behind cheesy. If he doesn't fucking have units to defend you are not cheesing by going for an aggressive build instead of 3hatch for example. 3 hatch would just give baby more time to get back on his feet. The longer HyuN waits the less time he has to exploit that timing, which I said before is in no way cheese.
gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it.
Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did.
Was still cheese they won with.
Really? This goes back to 9pool vs 12hatch ZvZ.
hurr derp he doesnt have zerglings, I do. I guess my build is suddenly cheese cause i know i can do damage now.
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On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
A cheese is only cheese when you planned it from the beginning. Both Light and Hyun reacted to BaBy's greedy build and punished him for it. Pusan's game was clearly cheese, but not Light's nor Hyun.
There was a discussion back then when 14cc was considered cheese. Really, such a build is risky especially nowadays.
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oh my god hyun what a baller
baby going 0-2?
SOMEONE GET THE KID HIS RAINBOW SOCKS PLEASE
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On July 17 2010 16:24 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:21 Iplaythings wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2010 16:18 Valentine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with. Do you play Starcraft? So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that? Actually if Baby actually scouted, Hyun would stop pumping lings... That's how you are supposed to play that build, it's a yarnc style 2hat mutaling with speed and lair gotten relatively quickly, it transitions smoothly into 2hat muta unless you suicide all your lings, but to be fair, all the games I saw on match point with this build(Kwanro vs Light, Effort vs Flash) had the zerg player winning with just the lings and a pure ling follow up. I'm sure its not a complete all in at the ling part, it transitions to a 2hat muta. but yarnc is all about mutaling busts...
+ Show Spoiler +
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The fact is that Baby would've at least 9 times out of 10 in that scenario. Notice he realized Hyun was pumping mass lings too. That's why it's not cheese since Baby saw it coming and still had such a low chance of winning.
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Okay, on second thought, I'm a little pissed at WeMade for wasting Shine's and Pure's excellent efforts. Curses!!!
It's also disturbing how some people in this thread seem to know absolutely nothing about starcraft, or logic.
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On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Even by your own definition this wasn't cheese. Baby was behind after his failed attempt at real cheese, and even if he managed to hold the speedlings with very little damage, he would have been in a dangerous situation when the mutas showed up. Had he managed to stay alive at that point, Hyun could very likely still transition out if he didn't decide to go all-in.
Furthermore, Baby actually scouted the 2hatch lair and the early zerglings (hence the bunker).
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On July 17 2010 16:21 Iplaythings wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2010 16:18 Valentine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with. Do you play Starcraft? So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Hold it off with what? It wasn't even that many lings. Baby had like 3 marines. Maybe on a different map you can hold it off, but not on match point. I don't think Hyun was originally planning to win off of that either, just to try to reduce marine count/cause some chaos. In total it was like 12 lings or so, which isn't that many.
As much as play like pisses me off on iccup, it's not really that easy to just "hold it off" I consider it cheesy, but not really cheese, but it's something you need to deal with =/
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Baby overhyped GG. MBC why couldn't you play like this last week. fml
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baby is in a slump. play nada instead!!
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On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail.
Did you even watch the game? Baby did scout the 2hatch ling and still lost. Your logic makes no sense.
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Angry fans make thread dramas, yay!
It was an entertaining set of matches, overall more enjoyable than the SKT1 vs CJ set (largely due to + Show Spoiler +). Because Baby just suffered a loss, I didn't like Wemade's coach's decision to put him back on the spot... should have been Nada!!
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On July 17 2010 16:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 16:12 Grobyc wrote:On July 17 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:09 moopie wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 Iplaythings wrote:On July 17 2010 16:08 flamewheel wrote:On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote:
MBCheese imo Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy? That was light That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted. Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though) That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously? Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it". My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail.And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
By that definition (bolded), switching to Battlecruisers in the 50th minute in a TvT could be considered cheese.
Actual cheese must be part of a cheese build, imo. That is, cheese is a specific build that you go into a game with that would fail if scouted, and would fail if successfully repelled. An all-in-ish counter to greedy play in the middle of the game is not cheese. If anything deserves a pejorative label here, it's the greedy play.
Edit: Swarmed by ninjas. It's what I get for starting my reply, going out for a smoke, then coming back in to finish it.
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It's always sad when a team needs 1 more game to win and the ace lets them down x2.
So very sad .
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On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote:
tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/174/trollface.png)
