Forfeit the game Before somebody else takes you out of the frame And puts your name to shame Cover up your face You can't run the race The pace is too fast You just won't last
Let us take a trip back in time, back to a time when Brood War was at its pinnacle, its zenith. Let us journey back to a time when Starcraft II had not yet shaken the foundations, back to a time when the match fixing scandal had not yet been revealed. This was the Golden Era of Brood War, a time when Starcraft championed the cause of ESPORTS, a time when being a progamer meant something more.
The date is October 10th, 2009.
A race is about to start.
Make no doubt; this race is to be arduous. It is not something for the faint of heart, nor for those lacking in stamina.
This race is a marathon.
At the starting line, twelve contestants line up, waiting for the signal. The fall leaves swirl around them, and the weather is starting to grow chilly.
The gun bangs.
The race is on.
This is Proleague.
As the sun begins to set overhead, the race begins. Starting on an even footing, the twelve runners jostle for position amongst themselves. A few of the contestants stumbled. A few others surgedforward, while others were content to bide their time in the middleof the pack. One last runner, despite his advanced age, continued running on.
Winter brings the fury of the storm. Snow and ice strike at the runners, but they will not be impeded. A few find strength from the cold, speeding past the opposition. The vastmajority of the contestants, however, are content to sticktogether for warmth. The leader holds his spot, still far ahead of the rest. The eldest struggles silently in the back, completed impeded by the frozen conditions.
The weather starts to warm. Icicles melt, and the birds begin chirping again as the players sprint onward. The dominant leader increases his lead to a ridiculous margin, while threeotherrunners try desperately to catch up. The middleofthepack plods on, still lacking the energy to pull ahead, and those in the rearofthepack pant desperately, seeking a reprieve.
Spring is now in full bloom. The weather violently changes: one day, the scorching sun may be beating down on the runners’ backs, and on others fierce rainstorms may flood the earth. The race is becoming desperate. Some contestantsstartsprinting, trying to push themselves to the front, yet they still cannot touch the dominant leader. Otherscouldnotkeepup the pace, and had to watch the forerunners dash off into the distance.Somefell, forced to their knees by outside forces. Far, far behind the rest, the elderly runner waited, gathering his strength.
Summertime. The race enters the desert, and even though valiantefforts are made by some, it is not enough. The twofrontrunners have lost their steam, yet they have amassed such a sizable advantage that they cannot be overtaken, even though their pursuersaretrying their hardest, using the last of their energy. Surprisingly, the old man of them all has found a second wind, and is speeding along the road, trying desperately to catch up. Yet it is not enough, for he cannot even catch up to the other twostragglers at this point.
And after nine long months, this race is winding down. Nine months of struggle, of ease. Of victory, of defeat. Of the original twelve runners, six have fallen by the wayside, and six are left, still vying for the prize, the joy of being the first to cross the finish line.
And now, it’s finally coming to the end.
On July 17th, we will find out who is the strongest, the fastest. We will learn who has the will, the drive, to become a champion.
And so we have it. The playoffs are upon us. MBCGame HERO and WeMade FOX. After the matches have concluded, only one team can continue the race. The Maginot lines of siege tanks have been drawn, and both sides ready their forces. Despite sometimes questionable coaching decisions from both teams this round, there can be no doubt that this is going to be a tough fight.
From looking at the list above, it can be inferred that WeMade has the deeper team. Between its 5-deep Terran lineup, annoying Zergs, and Pure FOX can strike from many different angles, and can easily field multiple choices for each team. However, on MBC’s side the Twin Tower Terrans stand strong, and can easily take on anybody on FOX. The real question tonight, then, is if Coach Ha can make the right choices, and if the players themselves will decide to play.
[02:47] <@flame[rica]> Who watched Light vs BaBy? [02:47] <@CJ_itw> :[ [02:47] <@flame[rica]> Recommend or no? [02:47] <@[WeMade]Milkis> i did [02:47] <@[WeMade]Milkis> no [02:47] <@motbob> no [02:47] <@[WeMade]Milkis> not recommended at all [02:47] <@boesthius> recommended RAPE [02:47] <@boesthius> but no
On July 16 2010 16:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Two terran based teams facing off in a bo7, the longest night of starcraft will commence.
You do realise that MBC only have two terrans on their roster - light and sea. The rest are mediocre zergs and protoss
I really do wonder what the stats are on all of this. My hypothesis is that any matchup involving a terran player on average results in a longer game than matchups not involving a terran player.
On July 16 2010 16:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Two terran based teams facing off in a bo7, the longest night of starcraft will commence.
You do realise that MBC only have two terrans on their roster - light and sea. The rest are mediocre zergs and protoss
I really do wonder what the stats are on all of this. My hypothesis is that any matchup involving a terran player on average results in a longer game than matchups not involving a terran player.
It's not really a hypothesis... TvT and TvP tend to be the longest matchups, with TvZ probably being about the same on average as ZvP, then PvP, then ZvZ is the shortest...
But for a Terran-lover like me, the fact that there are 6 good Terrans on these teams, who will all probably get play time, is very exciting.
I don't see MBC doing much to be honest. WeMade has insane depth, with Shine, Baby, Roro, Midas, Mind, Pure, Nada. Even if they don't get the most favorable matchups, I think WeMade has a much better lineup than MBC's Sea/Light anchored team with a bunch of scrubs like Hyun and Jaehoon.
On July 16 2010 16:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Two terran based teams facing off in a bo7, the longest night of starcraft will commence.
At least we don't have CANATA playing. That would just be terrible. He'd play a 2 hour long TvT that would bore every player so much that the next games will consist of only cheese.
On July 17 2010 09:56 serenidite wrote: omg <3 that banner is boss! i hope wemades epic terran line can sweep this up how amazing would it be if baby mind and nada won 3 in a row <3
I'm only OK wit NaDA winning but in the end it should be 4:1 :>. Yes I'm such an ignorant fanboy with no common sense !
Even though I still think MBC has a pitiful team after Sea and Light, I fear for FOX. Baby is slumping hard, and I'm thinking if a seventh set is needed, FOX will put all their chips on RorO.
HYPE HYPE HYPE. MBC going to take it, Sea Sea Sea Sea (gonna destroy) baby baby. (Yes I just said sang that) (Damn, Coach Ha is intense...) (LOL JAEHOON ;-; )
Jaehoon decides that after revealing his carriers, the best course of action is to reverse course and go kill some vultures killing a pylon while Mind is massing gollies
Jaehoon's army continues to dance around the lower half of the map, unable to engage Mind's mech army head-on quite yet, but keeping the expo at 6 safe.
On July 17 2010 13:23 flamewheel wrote: By the way, happy birthday moopie and thanks for LRing~
tyty
Jaehoon pushing on Mind's nat again, with goons/zealots and carrier cover.
Mind holding off the ground army, but loses a lot of goliaths. Jaehoon reinforces with a new ground army and this time advances to the highground by 9.
Mind loses his last tank by 9, and is forced to retreat his goliaths.
Mind's main is now attacked by carriers, Mind losing factories, but finally pushes the carriers back with his goliaths (which took their time getting up that ramp).
This is a losing battle for mind at this point, he is trying to hold on to his nat with everything he's got.
Another expo for mind goes up at 12, but I'm not sure he'll survive long enough for it to matter.
finally expo starts at bottom corner for jaehoon. mind muttering something under his breath. jaehoon currently not mining. 2 zealots scout the corner finally! minds main/natural falling!
On July 17 2010 13:40 Roffles wrote: Can't believe Jaehoon won a game. I'm just speechless.
To take off my fanboy glasses for a moment, it doesn't take much to beat Mind with carriers. When Jaehoon 2-killed Kal and Shuttle in straight-up games, that was a speechless moment.
On July 17 2010 13:40 Roffles wrote: Can't believe Jaehoon won a game. I'm just speechless.
Well, this time the map was really what made him win. that narrow choke at the mineral only expo is something they probably need to fix since it makes it impossible to defend against carriers. The map now has a 67% winrate in PvT. Mind just played a lot better but lost anyway.
On July 17 2010 13:40 Roffles wrote: Can't believe Jaehoon won a game. I'm just speechless.
Well, this time the map was really what made him win. that narrow choke at the mineral only expo is something they probably need to fix since it makes it impossible to defend against carriers. The map now has a 67% winrate in PvT. Mind just played a lot better but lost anyway.
Well I mean I didn't watch the whole game but did you see that sexy moment where Jaehoon predicted Mind's unsiege and absolutely crushed his push?
That was hot. That's all I saw of the game. But it was hot.
Hive going up for Shine. tyson still on 2 bases with his 3rd going up. Tyson trying to inflict some damage with his zealots at shine's nat but they're not doing too much
Greater Spire for shine. So far he has only been making lings and scourge.
Defiler out. Han moves a large group of zealots to 6.5 to defend against the incoming ling/defiler threat.
Lings catch the zealots off guard and take almost all of them out. Hand with some bad storms that didn't do too much. The expo at 6.5 is now undefended except for some cannons.
I'm actually not sure that han's so far behind. Shine has been spending a shitload of gas on scourge, and he keeps suiciding lings left and right. now han has 5 bases almost secured. but we'll see what these defilers can make happen
Han has 4 reavers outside his nat, but he he is losing 6 oclock now, he knows what time it is.
Han GGs.
Han failed at pretty much everything he tried in this game. DT harass, +1 speed zealot timing, defending his expo with zealots, mass sairs (twice). He pretty much lost this game to lings and scourge.
On July 17 2010 14:04 Avidkeystamper wrote: Today's PO Games are certainly pretty good. Although the ones so far feels more like appetizers. Is there a main course?
Considering both teams are saving their aces so far?
On July 17 2010 14:02 Saracen wrote: Really sick game by Shine. I loved his opening. And he handled the mass sairs really well, without any hydras. Very impressive.
On July 17 2010 14:02 Saracen wrote: Really sick game by Shine. I loved his opening. And he handled the mass sairs really well, without any hydras. Very impressive.
idk why but i lol'd
I would like to stress that hero should be the one known for only making hydras in PvZ (all he ever does, maybe a couple lurkers). Shine's been practicing. Hooray!
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
definitely unrelated he doesnt get bashed nearly enough for his level of play
So that was bad zvp? and am I blind or isnt his zvz consistent?
Ah well... Fanboyism is blinding me here, but imma call him inconsistent since he can play good in all matchups. (muta all ins vs t isnt auto win... right ? )
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
huh? People love much uglier players like Iris or July. I thought it was just Bisu/Stork fanboys back from Ever osl
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
Jaedong has used pure mutas before and nobody hated him for it.
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
On the contrary, I really respected Shine for knocking out so many good opponents. Then I actually started watching his games and his style got figured out, and I'm no longer impressed. Good attempt at psychoanalysis, though.
Edit: But that doesn't take away from the fact that he totally outclassed Han this game. Maybe he's good now.
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
Jaedong has used pure mutas before and nobody hated him for it.
Because no one can micro two groups of mutas like JD
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
Jaedong has used pure mutas before and nobody hated him for it.
Not when Shine uses either all-in hydra bust or 20 minute all muta games.
Pusan attempts to add a cannon up on the cliff. ure takes it out while its warping though.
Zealots in Pusan's base from the proxy gate. Pusan has no units to defend with, kills the zealot with probes (4 kills on it), but another zealot is already there.
On July 17 2010 14:13 Aesop wrote: I think Shine-bashing is just something that's en vogue and completely unrelated to his level of play.
People don't like him just because he's not the... best looking progamer out there. I've seen posts where people would complain about his appearance than his gameplay. Yep, the masses can be totally reasonable sometimes.
Little bitches bash shine because he eliminated beloved protosses Stork and Bisu in the same OSL. There was virtually no shine hate before that OSL.
Jaedong has used pure mutas before and nobody hated him for it.
Not when Shine uses either all-in hydra bust or 20 minute all muta games.
All-in hydras were unheard of before Shine did it? I've seen the same build over and over in 2009.
On July 17 2010 14:20 newvsoldschool wrote: All-in hydras were unheard of before Shine did it? I've seen the same build over and over in 2009.
The games people hate Shine for weren't even all-in hydras. He has a reputation for all-ins but the games where he eliminated the big favourites he was playing standard 5 hatch
On July 17 2010 14:18 Turbovolver wrote: I just feel the need to speak up as someone who likes Shine and has a raging boner for Stork. *Blames all the Bisu fans*
personally i don't give a damn about toss players and i still think shine's a sucka
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Bisu looooooooooooooooooololol. Also O-ops I think BrownBear was being facetious >.>
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Movie? Bisu? Really?
Funny how you include no Wemade players in your response.
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Bisu looooooooooooooooooololol. Also O-ops I think BrownBear was being facetious >.>
I refuse to believe that. That game never ever happened. EVER!
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
Just shows you're a bad poster for posting without knowing shit, because NaDa has been doing well in proleague, and you don't know a damn thing about the future of BW.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
NaDa > HiyA and Turn in his recent standard matches. NaDa's playing decently, but he's probably not ready for Light and Sea just yet.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
lol? Why do you even post?
I'm hoping NaDa will play and win to prove me wrong.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
Just shows you're a bad poster for posting without knowing shit, because NaDa has been doing well in proleague, and you don't know a damn thing about the future of BW.
Just shows you haven't been reading my posts in the last 2 years or so.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Movie? Bisu? Really?
Funny how you include no Wemade players in your response.
On July 17 2010 14:31 ssj114 wrote: Just shows how bad NaDa has become that they're not using him. Sad times. Not to mention Starcraft 1 will die once Starcraft 2 comes out. Why Blizzard why.
On July 17 2010 14:24 BrownBear wrote: Pusan has been shamed in front of the world for being the fucking cheesy noob that he is.
This is why you do not cheese in the playoffs. You beat your opponenent straight up, like the man you are.
It's the playoffs asshat. People do what they need to win. It's the occasional game like this that keep BW interesting. And just who do you think Pusan has a decent chance of beating straight up anyway?
Movie? Bisu? Really?
Funny how you include no Wemade players in your response.
OH SH!T THEY'RE PLAYING AGAINST WEMADE
Stop trolling.
The point is that Pusan hasn't been known for his consistency against current A-class players for the past what, year and a half. Sure he could beat them here and there, but this is the playoffs and every game counts. If he, or the coach thinks, that he has a better chance of winning cheesing on a cheesable map, than so be it.
And you may want to watch your use of the world "troll" and its variation.
Lurkers kill some reinforcements--a few marines and a tank--while Sea isn't looking. Still though, RorO in a lot of trouble as Sea is all up in his base.
Roro with hold lurkers between the player's bases, takes out a tank and marine that were coming to enforce. Roro moves out on the offensive now that defilers are out. lings and swarm take out a tank and force the marines and vessels back.
Honestly if I was in Roro's position I would have gg'd a long time ago, but I guess it's looked down upon for some reason to gg before you've lost your whole army.
Midas with a m&m/tank/valk build. Loses 1 valk to scourge.
Saint massing lurker/ling.
Midas moving out now. Saint sent his forces around, might sandwich him. no, saint goes on the offensive toward's midas's base. Midas pushing on Saint's base. Looking bad for Saint.
On July 17 2010 15:26 Sadistx wrote: MBC proving yet again that besides Sea and Light, they have no reliable players.
Saint tried to hydra-allin, and failed miserably
it wasn't just that; it was also the horribly placed morphing lurkers and the pathetic backstab attempt. he might have been able to hold off midas's push in time for defilers if he'd had more lurkers sooner.
Light attempting a bunker rush. Baby defneding with scvs. Good micro from baby wins the battle! Baby with a CC ready puts him ahead now econ wise (if he can use the cc).
Wraiths incoming. Baby is so far behind w/o scouting info, but if he can just hold off Light's attempts to capitalize on his tech advantage then Baby will be ahead.
Light following up with wraiths. They have the potential for terrible terrible damage; it's unlikely that Baby will be thinking about getting an armory any time soon with his floundering economy.
Wemade's making me nervous... With a huge lineup they can go for a PvT sniper or hope BaBy doesn't screw up twice. Or NaDa prepared for a long TvT game for the ace.
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
Sorry, but that's not cheese. Light saw a chance to do damage in the early game and pushed his advantage forward. If he chose to expand he would have lost his upper hand.
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
Sorry, but that's not cheese. Light saw a chance to do damage in the early game and pushed his advantage forward. If he chose to expand he would have lost his upper hand.
rax before supply depot, pulling 4-5 scvs and throwing down a bunker is not cheese you'd have to pull every single one of your scvs+ folat your CC to be a bit cheesy, but still
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
Sorry, but that's not cheese. Light saw a chance to do damage in the early game and pushed his advantage forward. If he chose to expand he would have lost his upper hand.
Early bunker rush is all in. He followed it up with wraiths cause he would have lost a macro game after that opening.
I know we've had our differences during the course of the season(s), but I would like you to know that I've placed you back on my anti-team, so abuse my fantasy team like you used to.
Yours truly, A GM who had you on the anti when you were on fire and removed you when you went cold
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
Sorry, but that's not cheese. Light saw a chance to do damage in the early game and pushed his advantage forward. If he chose to expand he would have lost his upper hand.
rax before supply depot, pulling 4-5 scvs and throwing down a bunker is not cheese you'd have to pull every single one of your scvs+ folat your CC to be a bit cheesy, but still
Light only pulled that many SCVs when he scouted that Baby was going 14cc. Of course he's going to go all-in once he sees that. If Light had intended to allin from the start, he would have BBS'd.
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
Sorry, but that's not cheese. Light saw a chance to do damage in the early game and pushed his advantage forward. If he chose to expand he would have lost his upper hand.
Early bunker rush is all in. He followed it up with wraiths cause he would have lost a macro game after that opening.
As expected, Light vT is cheese or lose.
It's really hard to view that as cheese when he pretty much had BaBy by the balls. Light definitely didn't look like he planned for the all-in/cheese or however you call it. People's idea of a non-cheese game is to expand, where some would beg to differ (and that would have most likely been the wrong choice).
On July 17 2010 16:00 Wala.Revolution wrote: Can someone tell what happened with trolling? I missed it. (in detail)
Baby is sent out for ace. Light stands up and walks toward the stage, but then he starts walking back as Hyun stands up, high fives the team, and proceeds to face Baby in Ace.
On July 17 2010 16:00 Wala.Revolution wrote: Can someone tell what happened with trolling? I missed it. (in detail)
Nothing of note. Light just got up as if he were the ace player, and as he walked over to the booth, Hyun got up and the two high fived and Hyun was the ace.
2nd rax for baby - first 6 lings out, chasing baby's scouting scv - well 5 break out to head towards baby's base - baby sees the lings approach with another scouting scv but the lings stop for a bit bunker going down at baby's nat still not done - lings hesitate for a second - they go around the nat mineral line!
Seriously though, kinda anticlimactic for an ace match especially since SKY/CJ didn't even get there. I'm a bit disappointed but MBC coach looking pretty smart right now O_O Papa Bear FTW!
That wasn't even a snipe strategy. That was just Baby being cheesy then greedy while Hyun just played smart. Baby should have just realized he's the better player and played straight.
Oh jesus, you have a 15 year old kid who just got eliminated in both leagues and is in some kind of slump, and then you let him play the sixth game plus ace. That's asking for it. Give this poor kid a break.
On July 17 2010 15:47 moopie wrote: Baby GGs. Cheese saves MBC. Time for an ace match.
Who cheesed?
Light? bunker rush?
No, bunker rush is perfectly reasonable as a follow-up to 8rax which isn't considered cheese. It's especially applicable in the 14cc vs 8rax situation. Furthermore, 8rax is often hailed as comparable to 9pool for zerg which means both are standard openings. It was BO loss, not cheese.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
Oh my god, you obviously didn't read all of the debates after Flash vs Effort.
Baby was incredibly greedy after his failed proxy rax. Hyun saw this and pumped lings and attacked. That is not cheese, that is reaction. Learn how Starcraft works before dismissing players' strategies as cheese.
Even if Hyun hadn't ended it right there, his mutas were coming out soon and Baby wouldn't have been prepared due to the mining time he lost from his defending SCVs.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
? How on earth is that cheese? It's a natural response to failed 8rax proxy into fast expand above all else. Even if Baby had by some miracle held that off, he'd have had to deal with mutas (as the spire was almost finished).
I hope MBC gives some shout outs to Hyungjoon in the interview! I feel like MBC really bloomed during the HJ series, (although thats probably cuz of the show)
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
On July 17 2010 16:15 teamsolid wrote: I still fail to understand why Terrans don't wall off in front of their expo better. Would easily prevent ling runbys, etc.
I saw the resources in the playback. Baby didn't have enough to build the wall fast enough.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
I will quote this to hopefully tell you that it was (or at least, should be) standard reaction to put enormous pressure and most likely, win.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Yes please answer that I feel like reading some humor.
tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Mutalisks. Look 'em up. What was Baby going to do to hold them off at such an early point in the game? And he had to protect two bases, no less.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Actually if Baby actually scouted, Hyun would stop pumping lings...
That's how you are supposed to play that build, it's a yarnc style 2hat mutaling with speed and lair gotten relatively quickly, it transitions smoothly into 2hat muta unless you suicide all your lings, but to be fair, all the games I saw on match point with this build(Kwanro vs Light, Effort vs Flash) had the zerg player winning with just the lings and a pure ling follow up. I'm sure its not a complete all in at the ling part, it transitions to a 2hat muta.
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail.
That's what cheese is? So if you scout 12hatch ZvZ with your 9pool you are cheesing by attacking? He is giving you a timing where he has late ass lings that you can exploit, is he not? If you are seriously telling me 9pool is cheese in ZvZ I'm not even going to bother replying. Cheese is not situational. If you are cheesing you are doing some gimmicky play in the early game. 9pool is not cheese if the other person happens to go overpool ZvZ, so how does it suddenly turn in to a "cheese" depending on their build?
And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so.
Well seeing as I disagree with your horrible definition above I don't find punishing someone because they are behind cheesy. If he doesn't fucking have units to defend you are not cheesing by going for an aggressive build instead of 3hatch for example. 3 hatch would just give baby more time to get back on his feet. The longer HyuN waits the less time he has to exploit that timing, which I said before is in no way cheese.
gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Really? This goes back to 9pool vs 12hatch ZvZ.
hurr derp he doesnt have zerglings, I do. I guess my build is suddenly cheese cause i know i can do damage now.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
A cheese is only cheese when you planned it from the beginning. Both Light and Hyun reacted to BaBy's greedy build and punished him for it. Pusan's game was clearly cheese, but not Light's nor Hyun.
There was a discussion back then when 14cc was considered cheese. Really, such a build is risky especially nowadays.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Actually if Baby actually scouted, Hyun would stop pumping lings...
That's how you are supposed to play that build, it's a yarnc style 2hat mutaling with speed and lair gotten relatively quickly, it transitions smoothly into 2hat muta unless you suicide all your lings, but to be fair, all the games I saw on match point with this build(Kwanro vs Light, Effort vs Flash) had the zerg player winning with just the lings and a pure ling follow up. I'm sure its not a complete all in at the ling part, it transitions to a 2hat muta.
The fact is that Baby would've at least 9 times out of 10 in that scenario. Notice he realized Hyun was pumping mass lings too. That's why it's not cheese since Baby saw it coming and still had such a low chance of winning.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Even by your own definition this wasn't cheese. Baby was behind after his failed attempt at real cheese, and even if he managed to hold the speedlings with very little damage, he would have been in a dangerous situation when the mutas showed up. Had he managed to stay alive at that point, Hyun could very likely still transition out if he didn't decide to go all-in.
Furthermore, Baby actually scouted the 2hatch lair and the early zerglings (hence the bunker).
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
Do you play Starcraft?
So Hyun wouldve been totally fine if Baby held it off? Do I really have to answer that?
Hold it off with what? It wasn't even that many lings. Baby had like 3 marines. Maybe on a different map you can hold it off, but not on match point. I don't think Hyun was originally planning to win off of that either, just to try to reduce marine count/cause some chaos. In total it was like 12 lings or so, which isn't that many.
As much as play like pisses me off on iccup, it's not really that easy to just "hold it off" I consider it cheesy, but not really cheese, but it's something you need to deal with =/
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail.
Did you even watch the game? Baby did scout the 2hatch ling and still lost. Your logic makes no sense.
On July 17 2010 16:07 Iplaythings wrote: MBCheese imo
Wasn't Baby the one who tried to proxy?
That was light
That was light in the last game. This game baby attempted a proxy rax that was scouted.
Oh well, still 2 hatch ling is cheese, 8rax or not. (You guys should feel guilty for not watching skyhigh vs fantasy though)
That 2hatch ling was cheese? seriously?
Okay, first of all, it was a ling heavy 2hatch muta. Mutas were coming. Second of all, Baby tried to cheese and hyun scouted it, so baby was quite far behind no matter way. Anything would have been strong. Third of all, Baby tried to EXPO after that, he had barely anything. Hyun simply made units and went "oh he's trying to be greedy now? guess I'll punish him for it".
My definition of cheese: You exploit a timing which the opponent gives you, if you get scouted youre most likely gonna fail. And most importantly, tell me how a 2hatch muta ling heavy play isnt fucking cheese. Ever seen someone play out standard after it unless doing damage? No? Who wouldve thought so. The korean definition is more accurate; "Strategic play". Hyun mightve planned something out, but no matter how you turn it, 2 hatch mutaling is motherfucking cheese, gonna tell me that what nony did to idra in the finals wasnt cheese? He just knew the opening and how to counter it. Now get off it, not denying that it's right thing Hyun did. Was still cheese they won with.
By that definition (bolded), switching to Battlecruisers in the 50th minute in a TvT could be considered cheese.
Actual cheese must be part of a cheese build, imo. That is, cheese is a specific build that you go into a game with that would fail if scouted, and would fail if successfully repelled. An all-in-ish counter to greedy play in the middle of the game is not cheese. If anything deserves a pejorative label here, it's the greedy play.
Edit: Swarmed by ninjas. It's what I get for starting my reply, going out for a smoke, then coming back in to finish it.
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
coach: "hyun, just do the same stuff as effort vs flash in game 5." hyun: "but its a known strategy, probably got analyzed and hard countered by now." coach: "if flash couldnt stop it, nobody can. ever."
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
well in calm and kwanro's current form they'd get wrecked but... effort and zero i would give them .. a 40+% chance of taking a bo5
lol. NO P has a chance vs jaedong . that would be like asking what Z aside from jd has a chance vs Flash
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
well in calm and kwanro's current form they'd get wrecked but... effort and zero i would give them .. a 40+% chance of taking a bo5
lol. NO P has a chance vs jaedong . that would be like asking what Z aside from jd has a chance vs Flash
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
kwanro knocked light out of out nate msl 3-0 :p
i would rate stork 50% against jaedong... and i think they are about even atm anyways
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
Exactly, no Zerg can win a ZvT for shit these days.I have to say its more than just the player atm
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
kwanro knocked light out of out nate msl 3-0 :p
i would rate stork 50% against jaedong... and i think they are about even atm anyways
yeah but those days are gone last time they played light mauled him
id probably rate bisu 50% against jd atm, maybe a bit lower if they are both playing at their peak. stork is definitely good, but i wouldnt rate him as high as bisu
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
imo bring yarnc back
i'd say that effort/calm/kwanro/zero have a good shot at taking down light :/
a good shot being what %? i dont think id rate any of them except maybe zero on a good streak above 25%
what % would you rate protosses apart from bisu taking down jaedong ?
kwanro knocked light out of out nate msl 3-0 :p
i would rate stork 50% against jaedong... and i think they are about even atm anyways
yeah but those days are gone last time they played light mauled him
id probably rate bisu 50% against jd atm, maybe a bit lower if they are both playing at their peak. stork is definitely good, but i wouldnt rate him as high as bisu
Pikachu will have his return next season of individual leagues and proleague.
Wemade needs Baby to step up. He is a central pillar and the ace for that team. I was banking on him not going 0-2 for them to beat MBC... I mean, the roster WeMade fielded is pretty good. Stronger than the MBC line up on paper... a bit.
Lets not let a BaBy front page of TL article and on-the-power-rank make us forget that BaBy's career win rate is under 51%. His only winning matchup is against Zerg, and that after having a nice 9 game run that ended with beating Flash, he has followed up by losing 11 of his last 12 games.
BaBy is an entertaining player to root for since he was like a chibi-progamer a few years ago, and is still only 15 years old, but don't let that skew the fact that he is a good gamer, but not quite great (doesn't mean he wont be, he's still 15 after all). His past wins were due to him sniping big names, but now he is the one getting sniped after he has to step up to a leader role in the lineup.
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
Seriously what the fuck is this. We so casually say "X doesn't have good ZvT" but right now who the fuck DOES have good ZvT other than Jaedong Action and (somewhat) Effort?
action will still get raped by the top terran players, effort usually too
the only person id back to win a zvt against someone like light is jaedong, the same way as the only protoss id back to beat a top zerg is bisu
The OP has a mistake. The zerg who played for Wemade in the third set is clearly not Shine. I don't know who it was, but Shine doesn't play a careful management style, with a fast hive and abusive mobility. Shine just masses mutalisks or hydralisks. I know he was playing Han, and Han could make MVP look like Flash, but still.
On July 18 2010 05:57 tree.hugger wrote: The OP has a mistake. The zerg who played for Wemade in the third set is clearly not Shine. I don't know who it was, but Shine doesn't play a careful management style, with a fast hive and abusive mobility. Shine just masses mutalisks or hydralisks. I know he was playing Han, and Han could make MVP look like Flash, but still.
On July 18 2010 01:51 ZlaSHeR wrote: Lets not let a BaBy front page of TL article and on-the-power-rank make us forget that BaBy's career win rate is under 51%. His only winning matchup is against Zerg, and that after having a nice 9 game run that ended with beating Flash, he has followed up by losing 11 of his last 12 games.
BaBy is an entertaining player to root for since he was like a chibi-progamer a few years ago, and is still only 15 years old, but don't let that skew the fact that he is a good gamer, but not quite great (doesn't mean he wont be, he's still 15 after all). His past wins were due to him sniping big names, but now he is the one getting sniped after he has to step up to a leader role in the lineup.
Nah dude, Baby lost his lucky rainbow socks. That's all there is to it.
Wow, that was a fantastic series! Even though Wemade lost, it was still awesome to watch. Basically every game other than game 2 I was on the edge of my seat. Jaehoon's fast carriers, Pure's counter-proxy-gateway into base trade, Roro hanging on by the skin of his teeth vs Sea, Midas defending the hydra contain and pushing straight through Shine, and both bunker rushes were all super fun to watch! So much for the endless TvT we were all worried about.
Going into game seven all I could think was Please don't try to bunker rush. Everyone could see something like that coming after he was just rushed in the previous game. It was -just- like game 4 of the MSL after the power outage.
Oh well, can't wait for Set 2! I'm really hoping to see Wemade bounce back. Everyone but Mind and Baby played really well, so it should be a great Set. There's a decent chance we may even see Nada....
On July 18 2010 05:57 tree.hugger wrote: The OP has a mistake. The zerg who played for Wemade in the third set is clearly not Shine. I don't know who it was, but Shine doesn't play a careful management style, with a fast hive and abusive mobility. Shine just masses mutalisks or hydralisks. I know he was playing Han, and Han could make MVP look like Flash, but still.
Wow, what a bad night for baby... But props for Hyun for scouting before going for 12 hatch.
Also hyun used the fact that you can't really wall of properly your nat with just a supply depot and bunker as you can always run around the minerals. Exactly what Effort did to Flash in OSL game 5.
On July 18 2010 05:57 tree.hugger wrote: The OP has a mistake. The zerg who played for Wemade in the third set is clearly not Shine. I don't know who it was, but Shine doesn't play a careful management style, with a fast hive and abusive mobility. Shine just masses mutalisks or hydralisks. I know he was playing Han, and Han could make MVP look like Flash, but still.
On July 17 2010 16:23 JohnColtrane wrote: tvz is turning into a fucking joke. roro didnt play bad at all and sea did nothing special at all and still raped him. im glad to see some toss like snow and stats giving it to zergs in pvz though
I agree. Sea just plays the same way every time these days and there doesn't seem to be anyway to stop him (unless you have JDs skills anyway).. I think the Wemade coach is crazy to send a zerg out on Grand line though- it's a terran macro paradise.
At the start of the month he was... then Jaedong absolutely brutalized him, and shattered his confidence.
It seems WeMade has finally realized that RoRo is a terrible ace player (although a decent player otherwise, if you take out all his ace losses he's above 50%), but instead of replacing RoRo with either Shine or Midas, they're replacing him with a severely slumping Baby. Either Baby needs a win to get his confidence back soon, or WeMade needs to stop failing with their ace picks -.-
Of course, once BaBy regains his form (which he will, it's only a matter of time. Kid's 15, give him a break, he's still got at least a good 3 years in him), WeMade will probably switch back to RoRo...
EPT
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Sea, 
Pusan, 
HyuN, ![[image loading]](/staff/flamewheel/SPL_LR/Lineups.jpg)
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