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On June 23 2010 15:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:29 danl9rm wrote:Ah, I remember the good ol' days when coaches wouldn't even allow their zergs to play the dong. I hope they don't wizen up again  The only point I was trying to make originally was that getting to the top is hard, but staying on top is almost impossible. Flash fans were quick to note his success, but the longevity isn't there, yet. Jaedong has been around, and has proven himself time and again. That's all I was sayin. I can see where you're coming from, but I think the haters are being just as quick to note Flash's failures as the fanboys are to note his successes (this was true with Jaedong as well).
I usually read these boards and hope that Jaedong and Flash don't read the Korean boards that look similar to ours, expecting them to play perfectly every single day, match, even. They really do have to steel their minds against this stuff. Some players never come off a slump, and their fickle fans don't lessen the pain.
It's OK when they lose. When else are they going to reinvent their strategies? While they're winning? Nah...
(i.e. I think it would have been silly for flash to change his TvT style when he was on that 20+ win streak)
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On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please .
Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors.
Please.
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On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please.
i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different .
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and yes theyango , i played tvt a lot , and i love this match up .
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Lol, this is like Ruby v.s. Flash all over again.
Flash raping in non-ace and then the other Terran suddenly makes Flash look like lower tier player in ACE.
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On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different .
Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects
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9071 Posts
On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects
Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz
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On June 23 2010 15:56 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz
But what about being best at it? For example, take Flash v Midas. He can just set up a bunker and hold off aggression even when he had no marines initially. If in ZvZ, your opponent gets lings into your base before you start making any, you're dead. No chance for a comeback. There's a way bigger defender's advantage in TvT than ZvZ, allowing the better player, the one with more skill, to win in the end.
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On June 23 2010 15:56 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz
He actually isn't. 47% and 3-7 in last 10.
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What he means is that ZvZ is harder to be dominating at.
Because of it's low econ its more subtle in nature. He's not saying its HARDER or its more Complex.
ZvZ is more like a balancing act and very easy to drop. It's very low econ and losing 2 units can cost you the game. So 80% is very significant...
TvT and PvP are generally longer, more complex, and very tedious (especially TvT)... and therefor a big skill gap is going to help you more and more. You might even say there is more room for error because those 2 SVC's don't matter as much as those 2 drones.
It's not that his argument is 100% gold but its certainly valid... people seem to want to either be "YES thats correct" or "NO you're totally wrong". I would agree that ZvZ is harder to maintain a very high win rate at than TvT, given equal skill of players.
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On June 23 2010 16:01 TwoStep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:56 disciple wrote:On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz But what about being best at it? For example, take Flash v Midas. He can just set up a bunker and hold off aggression even when he had no marines initially. If in ZvZ, your opponent gets lings into your base before you start making any, you're dead. No chance for a comeback. There's a way bigger defender's advantage in TvT than ZvZ, allowing the better player, the one with more skill, to win in the end.
thank you
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On June 23 2010 16:03 cursor wrote:
What he means is that ZvZ is harder to be dominating at.
Because of it's low econ its more subtle in nature. He's not saying its HARDER or its more Complex.
ZvZ is more like a balancing act and very easy to drop. It's very low econ and losing 2 units can cost you the game. So 80% is very significant...
TvT and PvP are generally longer, more complex, and very tedious (especially TvT)... and therefor a big skill gap is going to help you more and more. You might even say there is more room for error because those 2 SVC's don't matter as much as those 2 drones.
It's not that his argument is 100% gold but its certainly valid... people seem to want to either be "YES thats correct" or "NO you're totally wrong". I would agree that ZvZ is harder to maintain a very high win rate at than TvT, given equal skill of players.
and re thank you .
maybe im not alone after all =( .
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9071 Posts
On June 23 2010 16:03 InTheFade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:56 disciple wrote:On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz He actually isn't. 47% and 3-7 in last 10.
Im not being serious. Still, zvz is Blizzards biggest failure with BW
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On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects
You're missing the point. ZvZ is harder in the sense that it's difficult to win consistently because games can be decided in the matter of a few seconds. One poorly microed ling battle and it can be gg. One poorly executed muta control vs. scourge and it can be gg. Then there's also the luck factor that comes from build orders. If one player goes 4 pool or 9 pool against an opponent going 12 hatch, he is almost guaranteed a win most of the time if he sent his lings in the right direction.
Due to all these factors, it's not uncommon for even mediocre/bad zergs to beat good zergs. In the mirror matchups, it's more "easy" for good players to consistently beat weaker players because even if they make a few small mistakes, they can still overcome the opponent in the long run through their superior mechanics and control.
EDIT: It seems like a bunch of people have already explained this point, so this post is a bit redundant.
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ZvZ and PvP are quite different from the other matchups, to my eye - defender's advantage is minimal --> aggressive micro-oriented play. In no other matchup is taking your natural a risky play. That's pretty damn unforgiving, and gives you drastically less room to prove your superiority over the other player.
The other matchups have much greater defender's advantage, and therefore afford the stronger player more opportunities to make a comeback --> easier for a stronger player to win over a lesser player.
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it's cuz he came out and said he wants 60 wins, if he didn't jinx himself he'd be regular flash.
LEE YOUNG HO FIGHTING
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Yeah I agree, ZvZ and PvP have the least defender's advantage. Good PvP players are always great to watch. Bisu's and Stork's used to be so eye boggling. :| Hope they come back soonish.
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Flash haters are having a field day I see. Good for them, they deserve it because when MSL and OSL start the tears are going to start flowing again.
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I don't get it, flash will get eliminated in his first round by a mediocre terran.
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On June 23 2010 16:08 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 16:03 InTheFade wrote:On June 23 2010 15:56 disciple wrote:On June 23 2010 15:54 arb wrote:On June 23 2010 15:44 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:42 ShadeR wrote:On June 23 2010 15:32 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:16 TheYango wrote:On June 23 2010 15:13 vaMpYr wrote:On June 23 2010 15:05 Antiochus wrote:
I wonder what the record is for most consecutive ace match losses. beautiful =) bye bye flash . see you in hell . Says the STX fan. While both teams are in free-fall, at least KT can GET to ace matches. On June 23 2010 15:15 vaMpYr wrote:
dont compare JvZ and gagFvT please .
JvZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gagFvT from far and easy . So you respond to a comparison with a fanboyism. Ok. Come back when you feel like actually responding to the point of my post. ok no problem . im really curious how you can possibly argue that flash'stvt is better than jaedong's zvz . let's not forget that zvz is maybe the hardest match up in terms of skills and multitasking , its also maybe the hardest match up in terms of psychology . and the lucky things ? ( bo and micro ) tvt is strategic and macro , so being the best at it is easier . the competition is really harder in zvz . 80% in one of the hardest match up is maybe the crasiest record in SC history . im not here to argue that jaedong is a better player than flash , but i cant let you saying craps like this . i will never say something like " jaedong's macro > flash's macro " . it would be dumb . personaly im not far of thinking of it . but to maintain it would be really stupid from me . if you think flash's tvt is better , keep it for you please . Please don't be an ass and try to argue that ZvZ is more complex than the other mirrors. Please. i didnt said zvz is more complex , i said being the best at it is harder . its different . Yeah i really dont think its harder, TvT and even PvP require soooo much more than ZvZ in soo many different aspects Exactly. Hyuk is good at zvz He actually isn't. 47% and 3-7 in last 10. Im not being serious. Still, zvz is Blizzards biggest failure with BW
zvz failure? you obviously have bad taste or just dont like ther race in general
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EPT
