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[SPL] SK Telecom T1 vs eSTRO - Page 19

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5779 Posts
May 11 2010 14:55 GMT
#361
On May 11 2010 23:46 qrs wrote:
Besides, considering that he won the game, you theory-crafters will have a pretty hard time making the case that moving out was an objectively bad move.

So any time someone wins a game, every action they made was good? That's pretty retarded and I think you know it.
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
May 11 2010 15:03 GMT
#362
man them T1 zergs lately...
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
XIII
Profile Joined September 2005
483 Posts
May 11 2010 15:08 GMT
#363
On May 11 2010 23:46 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2010 23:10 Wings wrote:
On May 11 2010 22:33 Tekin wrote:
[image loading]
[image loading]
and Finally the face palm
[image loading]

Well what other reaction can u expect from the guy who has the longest TvZ streak in history

Oov cannot even comprehend the stupidity that is Fantasy... it's like making a math genius tutor your local druggie dropout

Nice screencaps, Tekin.

@ everyone bashing on Fantasy's TvZ: granted, it hasn't been looking good lately, but seriously, a little respect for the guy who (temporarily) revolutionized that match-up a year ago, not to mention won PL for his team by beating (Z)Jaedong in a TvZ, and came darn close to winning a Bo5 to take the OSL against that same Jaedong, who, in case you hadn't heard, has been known to play a decent game himself, from time to time. I'm not a Fantasy fan at all; in fact, he is one of the few players that I tend to root against, but respect his skills, even if he is in a bit of a slump these days.

Besides, considering that he won the game, you theory-crafters will have a pretty hard time making the case that moving out was an objectively bad move.


i think you give fantasy to much credit for things oov (metal tvz, valks) or boxer (pl final strat vs jd) thought up
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66366 Posts
May 11 2010 15:27 GMT
#364
fantasy won a TvZ in ace match.

Fuck yeah.
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66366 Posts
May 11 2010 15:32 GMT
#365
Actually, after reading the LR thread, the ace match win SUDDENLY SEEMS MORE EPIC LOL

FANTASY FTW
POGGERS
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
May 11 2010 15:40 GMT
#366
On May 11 2010 23:55 okum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2010 23:46 qrs wrote:
Besides, considering that he won the game, you theory-crafters will have a pretty hard time making the case that moving out was an objectively bad move.

So any time someone wins a game, every action they made was good? That's pretty retarded and I think you know it.

Let me put it this way: after Fantasy moved out, did Action have a chance to win the game, or even drag it out? If not, then on what basis do you call it a bad move?

If yes, then why didn't Action win the game? Did he also make a mistake? What more could he have done? He executed pretty well on the ling surround and he got into the main and I didn't see any horrible micro mistakes on Action's part: it still wasn't enough for him to win.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5779 Posts
May 11 2010 15:49 GMT
#367
On May 12 2010 00:40 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2010 23:55 okum wrote:
On May 11 2010 23:46 qrs wrote:
Besides, considering that he won the game, you theory-crafters will have a pretty hard time making the case that moving out was an objectively bad move.

So any time someone wins a game, every action they made was good? That's pretty retarded and I think you know it.

Let me put it this way: after Fantasy moved out, did Action have a chance to win the game, or even drag it out? If not, then on what basis do you call it a bad move?

If yes, then why didn't Action win the game? Did he also make a mistake? What more could he have done? He executed pretty well on the ling surround and he got into the main and I didn't see any horrible micro mistakes on Action's part: it still wasn't enough for him to win.

Did you even watch the game?

With three mining drones, Action would have had zero chance to win if fantasy had just macroed up behind his wall, secured his front, and pushed at a timing of his own choosing.

The way it turned out, fantasy barely survived the ling all-in. A split second's worth of firebat mismicro and the outcome would've been different.
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
May 11 2010 15:56 GMT
#368
We know that Action had 3 drones because we saw his base. Fantasy didn't know that. Had Action droned up instead, moving out would definitely have been the quickest way to end the game and prevent any chance of Action's coming back into it. Even if Action were going all in (which he was), Fantasy knew that with firebats, medics, SCVs and micro, he could hold it off.

My point is that fantasy's fate was in his hands the whole time, even after he moved out. It's not fair to blame a player for strategical stupidity if he chooses to rely on his micro and doesn't mismicro. The proof of the pudding is in the eating: his decision was fine.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
iamahydralisk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States813 Posts
May 11 2010 16:07 GMT
#369
His decision wasn't fine because it damn near lost him a game that he had 100% won otherwise.
"well if youre looking for long term, go safe, if you expect it to end either way, go risky. wow. just like sc2" - friend of mine when I asked him which girl to pick
dtnmang
Profile Joined April 2010
Vietnam752 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-11 16:17:19
May 11 2010 16:16 GMT
#370
Please, we watch this game to see oov's reaction, from being totally horrified to utterly relieved and eventually facepalming, not to see Fantasy's gimmicky TvZ.
I wonder what will happen in the SK team house tonight. oov taking fantasy to a ride on his bus maybe?
KT Roflster - the lulziest team of Proleague.
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
May 11 2010 16:23 GMT
#371
Hmmm and SKT pulls through.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
BreakerD
Profile Joined March 2010
United States159 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-11 16:32:55
May 11 2010 16:30 GMT
#372
On May 12 2010 00:56 qrs wrote:
We know that Action had 3 drones because we saw his base. Fantasy didn't know that. Had Action droned up instead, moving out would definitely have been the quickest way to end the game and prevent any chance of Action's coming back into it. Even if Action were going all in (which he was), Fantasy knew that with firebats, medics, SCVs and micro, he could hold it off.

My point is that fantasy's fate was in his hands the whole time, even after he moved out. It's not fair to blame a player for strategical stupidity if he chooses to rely on his micro and doesn't mismicro. The proof of the pudding is in the eating: his decision was fine.


Fantasy didnt make a bad decision either, who would've thought action would've done another all in rush with the zerglings. Even when he put down his second rax because he knew a early rush was coming it wasnt luck from his part. IMO fantasy expected action to build a couple of sukens to prolong the game. Had fantasy macro and expanded I think it would've been gg for him. This game is just like baxter and really(???) during msl or osl where baxter ling rushed and failed and went for another ling rush and won against the terran player who was exanding to his natural catching him off guard. No one really said much to the terran player. Plus i think oov was stressed because fantasy didnt go repair his rax which was a bad play from fantasy
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
May 11 2010 16:31 GMT
#373
On May 12 2010 00:27 konadora wrote:
fantasy won a TvZ in ace match.

Fuck yeah.


u gotta watch the game first lmao
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66366 Posts
May 11 2010 16:42 GMT
#374
On May 12 2010 01:31 alffla wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2010 00:27 konadora wrote:
fantasy won a TvZ in ace match.

Fuck yeah.


u gotta watch the game first lmao

lol just watched it, fantasy's action was understandable though.

he saw only 6 lings, so he might have thought Action was going some one-base play or something. Action played well here by hiding his lings, and Fantasy was a bit too greedy and overly daring for pushing out without medics and/or bats, which would have been a sure-win situation.

Other than that, it played out "normally", if you know what I mean (no that was not a joke at Fantasy's terrible (?) TvZ).

Besides, Action went 4 pool because he knew Fantasy would pull out something weird again, but alas, great SCV block and choice by Fantasy to go BSB.
POGGERS
Hazard
Profile Joined September 2009
Norway594 Posts
May 11 2010 16:47 GMT
#375
Saw Fantasy's game live and thought that he would wait for ~1 medic and MOVE out but he almost lost that game. You all saw OOV's facial expression about Fanta's decision to move out without medic - it was a huuuge mistake.
Nice SCV wall but he has to play safer - he isn't Flash to be that cocky about his skill.
"Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk Cafe! He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
SturmAddict
Profile Joined October 2009
Malaysia176 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-11 17:25:38
May 11 2010 17:23 GMT
#376
Firstly we have two things you can do
1) Move out and attack zerg
2) Camp for medics, then push

Now lets go on the foreigners mindset, play as safe as possible. get a medic and push. There was two things the zerg could have done

1) it might have been a 5/6 pool and he droned up
2) he kept on building zerglings
Because fantasy didnt know which one is it, idd say 50:50 for either of this to happen.

So foreigners mindset = play safe. get medics and push
In situation one 50%, the zerg would scout it, place sunkens, and macro up. he will quite a few drones and wont really mind putting down sunkens. Terran is in an advantage, but he still have a 5-10% chance to lose. Sav*** vs Fbh was one of the games where rush--> macro could get someone into the game. and no. neither is C
So chances of terran losing is 0.5*0.75 =~3.75% chance to lose
#Recall, he didnt know if its a 4 or 5 or 6 pool cuz he has no scouting scv

In situation two, zerg massed lings. Unless he gets a large flank on an attack, the zerg will lose
Chances of terran losing = 0.00001%~

So chances of losing with foreigner play = 3.75% + 0.00001% ~ 3.75% chance to lose


Now lets take the korean players view
What if 1) happened. There is no bloody way the zerg could have had enough lings to defend against rines from 2 rax. Insta-win. The timing was s.t there was no way the zerg has his nat up AND enough drones to get sunkens in his nat. He might be forced to sunk his main, but that would do nothing against rines. Chances of losing = 0.00001%

what if 2) happened. Zerg mass lings with 3 drones mining. It will annihilate the rines (which is the only way not to die to it), but all Fantasy had to do was pull back to the choke with medics and firebats, block with SCV's, and win as stim+range is finishing which will be the doom to zerg.
There is no bloody way the terran can lose this. Unless he lost both his barracks =< but Fantasy clearly was waiting for a second firebat before lifting. Then his 20 scv economy kicks in versus 3 drones.
Chances of losing = 0.00001% plus fans are happy, commentators can scream on, and he can get revenge on his coach. ezpz

Chances of losing with the korean mind set = 0.00001+0.000001% ~ 0%

0% losing chance is better then a 1%+ losing chance

On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
May 11 2010 17:29 GMT
#377
This is a very suprising result. Two SKT zerg wins kept this from being a sweep or a beat down and Fantasy continues to be the only decent player on the team.
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-11 19:05:40
May 11 2010 19:05 GMT
#378
On May 12 2010 02:23 SturmAddict wrote:
Firstly we have two things you can do
1) Move out and attack zerg
2) Camp for medics, then push

Now lets go on the foreigners mindset, play as safe as possible. get a medic and push. There was two things the zerg could have done

1) it might have been a 5/6 pool and he droned up
2) he kept on building zerglings
Because fantasy didnt know which one is it, idd say 50:50 for either of this to happen.

So foreigners mindset = play safe. get medics and push
In situation one 50%, the zerg would scout it, place sunkens, and macro up. he will quite a few drones and wont really mind putting down sunkens. Terran is in an advantage, but he still have a 5-10% chance to lose. Sav*** vs Fbh was one of the games where rush--> macro could get someone into the game. and no. neither is C
So chances of terran losing is 0.5*0.75 =~3.75% chance to lose
#Recall, he didnt know if its a 4 or 5 or 6 pool cuz he has no scouting scv

In situation two, zerg massed lings. Unless he gets a large flank on an attack, the zerg will lose
Chances of terran losing = 0.00001%~

So chances of losing with foreigner play = 3.75% + 0.00001% ~ 3.75% chance to lose


Now lets take the korean players view
What if 1) happened. There is no bloody way the zerg could have had enough lings to defend against rines from 2 rax. Insta-win. The timing was s.t there was no way the zerg has his nat up AND enough drones to get sunkens in his nat. He might be forced to sunk his main, but that would do nothing against rines. Chances of losing = 0.00001%

what if 2) happened. Zerg mass lings with 3 drones mining. It will annihilate the rines (which is the only way not to die to it), but all Fantasy had to do was pull back to the choke with medics and firebats, block with SCV's, and win as stim+range is finishing which will be the doom to zerg.
There is no bloody way the terran can lose this. Unless he lost both his barracks =< but Fantasy clearly was waiting for a second firebat before lifting. Then his 20 scv economy kicks in versus 3 drones.
Chances of losing = 0.00001% plus fans are happy, commentators can scream on, and he can get revenge on his coach. ezpz

Chances of losing with the korean mind set = 0.00001+0.000001% ~ 0%

0% losing chance is better then a 1%+ losing chance



I suppose that makes Oov a foreigner who knows less than you. lol
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
SturmAddict
Profile Joined October 2009
Malaysia176 Posts
May 11 2010 19:18 GMT
#379
Nah . it wasnt the nature of how fantasy attacked with his rines which worried oov

It was how late fantasy pulled SCV's and lifted his rax.

Fantasy made sure the choke was guarded with his 2 medics and firebats to make bloody sure the second firebat comes out which will do so much for him. The game was over when fantasy had firebats and medics.

All in all, it was excellent play on fantasy's behalf, making a very deep decision which probably most foreigners and old-school korean players will never understand.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
May 11 2010 19:22 GMT
#380
Roflcopter! Ya, Fantasy did the right thing for sure. XD
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
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