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On June 26 2007 12:45 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote:
i'm not talking about playing with vision, you stupid noob.
On June 26 2007 13:08 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote:
me: "on the contrary my dear watson, i believe that this particular line of logic is flawed because... this... and this... and this..."
Hahaha, some slight mis-self representation there.
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Calgary26004 Posts
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Chill is talking about when to build spire when you open lurkers, Code is talking about when to build spire when opening mutas thus the confusion.
Code you're at this stage of your starcraft lifespan when you think you know every counter and every build of the matchups you play and is so confident in what you know because you have not encountered anything new or lost in a long time to the people you play and you can write an essay on your own theorycrafting and have watched millions of replays. All your theorycrafting is good at all right down to the "you should time your defiler when he first attacks" or "try to cast swarm and put your lurkers near his tanks." That's all lovely stuff but you need to play terrans who rape you 10-0 before you can switch to lurkers so they can burst your little theorycraft bubble and you won't feel the need to attack someone as soon as they disagree with you. Right now you probably can make yourself feel like savior by muta switching to lurkers and killing your opponent with defilers every game but your mutas probably come out 2 minutes late and your defilers probably come out a year after your hive is up. Start playing people better than you
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
code is so in over his head it's hilarious
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So now does it mean there will be no replays between Chill and Code? 
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Chill does a lean mean hydralurk strat and defeats Code w/o getting a Spire, even tho Code goes SK Terran. Code then proceeds to rant about that 'having proved his point'.
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code you are so ridiculously wrong.
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rofl chiflutz, nice. Maybe for some more theorycraft, dropship harrassment as T? Then gain this thread is to help a Zerg, lately i have been experimenting with a build, but i probalby shouldnt mention it in here or chill will get me banned, i will PM him first and ask what he thinks.
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Hey code, chill and anyone else, this is a little off topic, but I'd really appreciate if you could tell me your build orders for Z v T.
I mean like, not just 12 hat, 11 pool, but, all the way down to getting 9 mutas and the time it should be.
Or atleast link me to where its at.
Thanks, please don't fight T_T
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Calgary26004 Posts
As I said I'll play him any time. I don't know how T is his offrace when he mentioned he picks T when they pick Z, but okay.
12 Hatch
11 Pool
@950 Hatch HP, transfer and clone 5 Drones.
Make 2 Zergligns (1 Larva)
Creep Colony
@300 minerals, (~15-16 supply) Hatch
Use discretion whether to morph Sunken.
16-17 Extractor
16-17 Overlord
@100 gas, Lair
Natural Extractor
Spire
Make Drones to 34 supply. (or 33, 35, depending...)
Make Overlords until 51 supply. (33/51.. 34/51.. 35/51)
Begin saving Larvae
Depending on your number of Sunken Colonies, you may expand now. That Hatchey will drop your supply to 33/51. 9*2+33 =51/51 * *ding ding* *
Otherwise just build a Hydra Den right before your Spire morphs so you drop to 33 supply.
Then the way I like to follow it up is:
Mutas pop
Expansion Hatchery
Hydra Den
Evolution Chamber
Lurkers
Carapace
Zergling Speed
Hatchery in main
and continue playing macro from 4 in-main Hatches while building only Drones from expansions. Eventually take a fourth gas when you go Hive. After Hive add another Evolution chamber and begin melee. Don't start going Ultras until he's survived the initial DefilerLurkerLing attack.
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Calgary26004 Posts
The time it should be? I have no idea. I don't really focus on time considering it's all relative. I remember reading 7 minutes or maybe it was 7:20. Anyways I'd go with that.
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if you go standard 3 hatch muta vs fast cc before academy make sure 9 mutas are out by 7:20, nowadays koreans skimp so much on sunkens they can get mutas before 7 minutes without sacrificing drones
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i just got a manner pm  i'm gonna stop talking now before i get kicked.
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I didn't want to create another topic for this, but what do the zergs here think about upgrading +1 attack for mutas right after you get a spire?
Would it be worth it only in zvz, in all matchups, or not worth it in any matchups? I bring this up because with the +1, they can kill workers and rines with one less muta, which seems like the upgrade pays for itself rather quickly.
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Calgary26004 Posts
In ZvT you could easily justify it - it's a very cheap upgrade and Marines and SCVs have very low health meaning you'd be able to snipe them much more effectively. The main problem is the time. What are the chances you're going to still be Muta harassing 5 minutes later? Not very high. Are you ever going to make more Mutas? Probably not. So, it's marginal but I'd never get it.
In ZvP it's pretty useless. Same problem as ZvP; by the time the upgrade is done the Mutas have served their purpose and you're not going to make them anymore. Carapace is more useful, but obviously only when playing against Corsairs. I'd never get it.
ZvZ is always Carapace first. I can't really think of a situation when this wouldn't be the case. Maybe if you always were engaging him and therefore you were fighting with <10 Mutas always. But how likely is that? No. Get Carapace.
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my third hatch comes when i have 14 drones. 13 works too but i notice 14 gives me so much more minerals later on. i make 4 lings but sometimes 6. 1 chases scv, 1 goes behind opponent's natural mineral field to see when they expand. 2 go halfway up ramp to see how many marines they have to see if they are doing 1 barrack or 2 barrack build order, then i have them wait outside base to see when they rush.
if my 4-6 lings manage to kill scv, i like postponing first creep colony by a lot.
3 hatch i put in the middle of nowhere in my base, and when i plop spire down, i put it on the edge of the 3rd hatch's creep. i put my den in normal place. this makes terran scan spire late sometimes and not enough turrets are up, or they are messy.
i actually agree with what chill says for the bo, except when i start getting into more than a few minutes into the game, i prefer to have a build in mind, but not set in stone with numbers.
for every ~8 drones i have, i have 1 hatchery. half full mineral patch = ~1 hatchery. full mineral patch = 2 hatcheries. main and nat both full of drones = 4 hatcheries. you can see drones very fast by selecting them all and looking at the icons.
when muta harassing, minerals tends to build up pretty fast. that's when to take expo(s) and get lurk upgr, and start caraspace upgr. if terran is containing and you are using mutas to force him to stop containing, i get 1 extra hatch in base and go for lurker upgrade to use up minerals while i'm waiting to take expos. when mutas clear out containment, i get 1 expo, in addition to my 3 hatches. if terran went fast expo, i either take 2 expos instead, or i go 1 expo fast hive.
the way i manage my econ is to have roughly as many drones as the terran has scvs (based on how many bases he has, i assume he has roughly 2 scvs per mineral), but even if i have same number of drones to his scvs, my drones do better because they are all mining their own mineral patch instead of like the scvs that are two scvs per mineral. also, my drones get more gas cause i have more expos. then i estimate 1 hatchery for every 8 drones, so normally if terran is one base terran, i'll have like, 3 bases of ~10 drones each, and 5 hatcheries. if terran has natural, i either have 4 bases of half full minerals patches, or 3 bases with main full, and 2 others half full. then i stop making drones for the most part and focus on army.
hatcheries in main and natural stop making drone first. expo hatcheries stop making drones later.
when i pretty much stop making drones, i go lurk/ling/muta for terran's first attack. then for his second attack, i'll hopefully have swarm up.
take it as you will =P
EDIT: oops, i mean, make 4-6 lings at 14 drones, not 3rd hatch. haha.
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On June 27 2007 15:59 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote:
if my 4-6 lings manage to kill scv, i like postponing first creep colony by a lot.
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i would have to respectfully disagree due to the fact that ytour first sunken is to prevent more scv from scouting your m ain while you tech, not to hold off marines(unless of course your bunker rushed or any other kind of rush)
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or you can just you know, put two lings on your ramp
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Chill's advice is the advice you should listen to. Code's is a bit flawed...but I just wanted to add something about the +1 muta upgrade. Obviously the chances of you still muta harassing 5 minutes later is very very low. But it certainly is possible that you will be using your mutas with lurker/ling support for map control. Whether it will make any difference is debateable. Besides if you choose to use guardians later they will do an extra 2 damage each..yay
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On June 28 2007 01:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
or you can just you know, put two lings on your ramp
code claim to have a certain spot where he puts all of his lings, so sunken kills second scout.....
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EPT
