tl;dr translation from Horang2's video, linked here. I don't remember mention of 2 gate, but there's quire on liquipedia on how that goes. If anything, I ask you to click on the video to watch it (which supports horang2)
Protoss vs Protoss Builds and what they're weak against:
Opening - Gate Zeal Core < Gate Core
Robo 3 Gate < 1 gate robo 2 gate ob reaver / 1 gate nexus 3 gate 21 "Two" (rangeless 2nd gateway at 21/25) < fast DT 1 gate nexus 3 gate < Fast DT, Shuttle Reaver Fast DT < Robo 3 Gate 2 ob, against everything else its ok.
1 gate robo 2 gate shuttle reaver < Fast DT, Shuttle Ob Reaver 1 gate robo 2 gate shuttle ob reaver < Safest. 1 gate robo 2 gate ob reaver < THE build to do these days. (no shuttle but can defend, get a nexus). Can defend against Robo 3 Gate If you expand, you can die to 3 gate (if you dont expand, then you can hold at the ramp) 1 gate 4 dragoon ob reaver < If you don't expect shuttle reaver, best build 1 gate robo 2 gate 2 obs reaver < really rich build. weak against aggressive builds (shuttle reaver, 3 gate) Speed Shuttle: If your micro is good (confident), use it. behind/loses against: 1 gate nexus 3 gate, fast DT
3 gate: Bad on maps with ramp (at lower levels, good at contain) Gets countered by really fast DT. If your opponent tries to do 1 gate robo 2 gate ob reavers, go kill his expansion
However, since I was not prepared I might have said few things that weren't necessarily correct on the explanations. Apologies in advance, and please do correct me if I'm wrong on any of the points.
Thank you so much! This is very intersting and it s the first time i see all the builds vs each other
edit: by the way I agree with your point about translation that s why back in the days in WGT all translations were free and pointed to the original link, only text was added/translated.
Can anyone link a how is the exact build for Fast DT? I've seen the 2 gate DT build from liquipedia but a friend of mine told me that people are playing 1 gate dt fast expand. Is it true? Any link for that build? Thanks!
well fast DT, you can 1 gate cyber maybe some goon(s) then cita=>archive and you get forge and pylon @nat to cannon it in time for if your opponent was making DT (probably before making nexus), details depending on game, your cannons can then also defend if he went goon obs etc
On September 04 2017 07:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote: well fast DT, you can 1 gate cyber maybe some goon(s) then cita=>archive and you get forge and pylon @nat to cannon it in time for if your opponent was making DT (probably before making nexus), details depending on game, your cannons can then also defend if he went goon obs etc
I like this build ^^ it's pretty much what I use 80% of the time
On September 04 2017 06:23 lgn! wrote: Can anyone link a how is the exact build for Fast DT? I've seen the 2 gate DT build from liquipedia but a friend of mine told me that people are playing 1 gate dt fast expand. Is it true? Any link for that build? Thanks!
The build order depends a lot on how quickly your opponent scouts you and if they leave your base with the scouting probe. Basically you want to get a zealot and to build ur citadel after your core asap without your opponent seeing it. You want at least 2-3 dragoons with ur zealot to hold ur ramp and and you should try to get your third pylon at ur natural so you can cannon it.
Something useful to know is that the build time for the gateway and templar archives is the same, so if you throw them down at the same time, your second gateway will finish just in time to make 2 dts. You basically use that money to get a forge quicker instead of a gateway for 1 gate dt expand. Its very important that you try to get your third pylon at ur natural as you will have a period after your 1 or 2 dt where you have no unit production while you save for the nexus + cannons, so you dont want to invest your money into the 4th pylon too early.
In my experience 1 gate dt is less auto win than 2 gate dt vs slow detection builds as you will more often than not have to defend with the dt, giving them time to get detection (you should still have an advantage though with the expo). 1 gate is more economical though and you get faster tech. its also better vs your opponent's dts, especially if they went 2 gate dts.
Out of curiosity, how does the 5 zeal FE (w/ cannons) stack up against these other builds? I first saw the build on liquipedia and have been practicing it a bit.
I'm also not sure precisely how to counter the 5zeal FE build... Would 4 gate goon potentially be able to bust the front and kill the expo? I've thought about maybe trying a DT drop or something but a cannon in the main would seemingly nullify that. Maybe 1 gate robo into reaver drop to hamper their econ? Or would an alternate approach of double expanding (considering the passive stance forced by all the cannons) be a more wise counter?
if you want to bust a early nexus with a stronger push, proxy it, so a proxy robo/gate(s) asap to get reaver and goons there earlier, maybe you can do smtg with adding proxy gates for zeals even earlier
Good goon control completely nullifies the 5 zeal opening, even a 2 gate when you face anyone above B+ level, proxy reaver is instawin. DT drop is probably the worst as it is usually the most expected and as you said 1/2 cannons in the main will counter it, and give huge army advantage to ur opponent.
Wow, this is really useful, thanks a lot! And a little qusestion - does anyone have some build order for all this 1 gate robo 2 gate... openings? I've found on liquipedia something called 3 gate, but honestly this seems sub-optimal, as works in waves of having to many and to little minerals.
the order in which you do certain things is the core part, assuming that if you build a gate you keep producing units out of it which is not necessarily the case, the details are up to you tbh have you tried 1 gate robo 2 gate? it's just, 1 gate, make goons and range, add a robo when you have enough money, then add a gate, then produce what you want from these 2 gates and robo (so do you want ob first, or reaver, or even shuttle, up to you and you can try and gauge your opponent to decide) lets say you see a lot of goons and opponent trying to be aggressive with them, maybe go reaver first and get an expansion then maybe add another reaver and shuttle to damage him trying to expo after ; you will need enough goons so more gates~~ etc dont recommand trying to play a super strict BO with numbers for timing of each thing, shouldnt need it, just keep an eye on everything dont get supply blocked, keep making probes unless you want to speed smtg up, try not to get smtg too early and you can't afford to make use of it~~ 3 gates if you do it rly early, you will probably sacrifice some probe producing time, you could avoid that by making your gates not so fast, but then it will ofc not strike as hard as early, its rather a risky poker thing you can even 4 gate all in and sometimes you get lucky win against better player^^
Every time I play Python, I get 2 gated. Proxy or in-base, + manner pylon. Is it really worth going 1 gate on smaller maps? I feel like I'm asking myself to be god or get lucky in scouting. Would be cool to see replays and talk about dealing with all the cheesier openings.
On September 06 2017 02:32 playa wrote: Every time I play Python, I get 2 gated. Proxy or in-base, + manner pylon. Is it really worth going 1 gate on smaller maps? I feel like I'm asking myself to be god or get lucky in scouting. Would be cool to see replays and talk about dealing with all the cheesier openings.
May want to throw in a shield battery near the ramp, and add some probes, because they're "ranged" and can attack from behind.
On September 05 2017 17:25 InDi wrote: Good goon control completely nullifies the 5 zeal opening, even a 2 gate when you face anyone above B+ level, proxy reaver is instawin. DT drop is probably the worst as it is usually the most expected and as you said 1/2 cannons in the main will counter it, and give huge army advantage to ur opponent.
I don't agree with this, if you 5 zealot fe and are able to scout your opponents build when he moves out you can properly counter any sort of all in
On September 06 2017 02:32 playa wrote: Every time I play Python, I get 2 gated. Proxy or in-base, + manner pylon. Is it really worth going 1 gate on smaller maps? I feel like I'm asking myself to be god or get lucky in scouting. Would be cool to see replays and talk about dealing with all the cheesier openings.
May want to throw in a shield battery near the ramp, and add some probes, because they're "ranged" and can attack from behind.
I've made that work once. I always scout it last, and even when I try to scout middle of map, I still somehow miss it. I don't know what I'm doing. I just know it's wrong.
On September 06 2017 02:32 playa wrote: Every time I play Python, I get 2 gated. Proxy or in-base, + manner pylon. Is it really worth going 1 gate on smaller maps? I feel like I'm asking myself to be god or get lucky in scouting. Would be cool to see replays and talk about dealing with all the cheesier openings.
May want to throw in a shield battery near the ramp, and add some probes, because they're "ranged" and can attack from behind.
I've made that work once. I always scout it last, and even when I try to scout middle of map, I still somehow miss it. I don't know what I'm doing. I just know it's wrong.
not sure about two gate in the middle, but as to the 2 gate in their main, there's enow time for you to produce the second zealot and block the ramp right before their zealots arrive. The idea with SB is that you position your first pylon in such a way, that you can place the SB within its range and your ramp-zealots won't have to move to refresh shields. You also bring in 1-2 probes to place them behind your zealots, because their rays reach your opponent's zealots. So that he has 2 zealots fighting your 2 plus 1-2 probes plus the SB, and the frst dragoon is on the way.It is still possible to fight off with dragoon micro and probe micro, if they broke through, although, from what I've played, it's very tough.
On September 05 2017 17:25 InDi wrote: Good goon control completely nullifies the 5 zeal opening, even a 2 gate when you face anyone above B+ level, proxy reaver is instawin. DT drop is probably the worst as it is usually the most expected and as you said 1/2 cannons in the main will counter it, and give huge army advantage to ur opponent.
I don't agree with this, if you 5 zealot fe and are able to scout your opponents build when he moves out you can properly counter any sort of all in
Which allin am I talking about? 2 gate goons? Proxy robo? I precisely said that I think this BO is not so good because it gets countered by pure micro out of standard openings.
Once there are 6 goons vs any good P player you have no much options left, ur range will be way later than his, and he can focus fire cannons, move in kill cannon, move back, you can only use zeals to gain time, I am thinking about FS here, not sure if its more feasible on other maps where the choke is different.
Again, if he can secure a set of goons at ur door, you can't deny his proxy robo, he doesn't even need to hide it, and just casually walk the 1st reaver to ur face.
In my experience this is what happens when I do this opening, and what I do against it as well.
How do you counter this kind of aggression with 5Zealot FE Castle?
If I can scout 2g proxy reaver I will cut probes very early once my natural is up and 6-7 gate goon all in on 2 base (no 2ND gas) my economy won't be as good as it could be on 2 base but I'll be able to mine more minerals than my opponent, out producing him in goon count by 3 or 4 once the reaver is shooting my cannons (goon range is also timed to finish just before the reaver hits). I'll often try to buy as much time as I can so I can get a full round of goons out but it's more than likely that he has already tried to take my natural down if his timing is correct. I've won and lost like this to players who I considered good, it ultimately comes down to scouting and micro but if u can hold it and counter push off 7 gates it's an easy win or at least u can deny his natural and fend off reaver harrass and continue probe production until ur economy is alot better.
If I can scout 4 gate all in I will add a 4th cannon, the 4th cannon is enough damage output to hold off the chokes on fs especially if you have a few zealots to buffer. i then get my robo and 1+ wps once i know im safe then cut probes once I'm fully saturated on 2b and 1+ wps reaver push him once it's ready, again I have been busted by 4 gate all ins but most of the time i blame myself for not scouting it or having poor reaction time with my zealots when the initial goons try to focus down cannons, you're right it is a good counter to 5zeal fe but it can still be countered on fs and other small natural choke maps
I'll admit that you're right for the most part that 5 zealot fe has alot of flaws and if you can deny scouting and leave the 5 zealot fe player in the dark, chances are the proxy reaver all in will work, the odd time it works even when I know it's coming and I've performed my build correctly but I do believe with good micro it can be countered
On September 07 2017 06:11 castleeMg wrote: If I can scout 2g proxy reaver I will cut probes very early once my natural is up and 6-7 gate goon all in on 2 base (no 2ND gas) my economy won't be as good as it could be on 2 base but I'll be able to mine more minerals than my opponent, out producing him in goon count by 3 or 4 once the reaver is shooting my cannons (goon range is also timed to finish just before the reaver hits). I'll often try to buy as much time as I can so I can get a full round of goons out but it's more than likely that he has already tried to take my natural down if his timing is correct. I've won and lost like this to players who I considered good, it ultimately comes down to scouting and micro but if u can hold it and counter push off 7 gates it's an easy win or at least u can deny his natural and fend off reaver harrass and continue probe production until ur economy is alot better.
If I can scout 4 gate all in I will add a 4th cannon, the 4th cannon is enough damage output to hold off the chokes on fs especially if you have a few zealots to buffer. i then get my robo and 1+ wps once i know im safe then cut probes once I'm fully saturated on 2b and 1+ wps reaver push him once it's ready, again I have been busted by 4 gate all ins but most of the time i blame myself for not scouting it or having poor reaction time with my zealots when the initial goons try to focus down cannons, you're right it is a good counter to 5zeal fe but it can still be countered on fs and other small natural choke maps
I'll admit that you're right for the most part that 5 zealot fe has alot of flaws and if you can deny scouting and leave the 5 zealot fe player in the dark, chances are the proxy reaver all in will work, the odd time it works even when I know it's coming and I've performed my build correctly but I do believe with good micro it can be countered
Cool answer, as you guessed already I'm not a big fan of 5zeals FE but I do it from time to time. I can see that you have thought about the best approach in this kind of situations, I tend to keep producing probes so that limited my chances for sure. Interesting points, will try it out next time I face this!
Most of these articles have example games with either VOD or replay linked.
So the builds that the OP is talking about are the same we have in the link? One Gateway Cybernetic Core Variations Two Gateway Reaver Two Gateway Dark Templar Three Gateway Robotics
Are those the same? I was thinking that maybe they have changed now.
EPT
