On July 21 2009 03:58 BisuBoi wrote: It's not about being a gentleman. The other game was a showmatch! Nothing on the line. Why in hell would Reach throw away an individual league tourney game to make up for a foreigner showmatch? And why would it be compelling evidence to say it's Reach's retirement match? What man do you know says he wants to end his career on a loss?
On July 21 2009 03:58 BisuBoi wrote: It's not about being a gentleman. The other game was a showmatch! Nothing on the line. Why in hell would Reach throw away an individual league tourney game to make up for a foreigner showmatch? And why would it be compelling evidence to say it's Reach's retirement match? What man do you know says he wants to end his career on a loss?
There's no way it was fixed, Reach probably did not put much time into practicing python of all maps for a game against tossgirl. He just decided he'd do a pretty standard island expand after reaver harrass not expecting her to get a fast starport. The only thing that was really bad was his shuttle control.
But assuming he did nothing with his reaver and still lost that shuttle earlier, had tossgirl not gone dropships he still probably would have won despite playing an awful game overall
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
This motivation that u r speaking off wasn't reflected in any ways in the game he played against tossgirl.
after reading tossgirls interview and reach's response, it makes u wonder if rigging games are a normal things in the pro-gaming scene in korea, let me put it this way:
tossgirl asked reach to play in a certain way to entertain the crowd, and thus rigging the game, reach didn't rig the game and opted to play fair, and now tossgirl well... kinda bitched about reach, and Reach almost immediate response to that is apologies? why the fuck would u apologize for playing a match fairly? sportsmanship outweighs personal promises no matter how u look at it, unless if reach felt bad for not rigging a game like he was supposed to.
On July 20 2009 23:51 JWD wrote: Reach badly needed this win to advance in SHL...his motivation to win the game was much, much stronger than any motivation to lose it.
This motivation that u r speaking off wasn't reflected in any ways in the game he played against tossgirl.
after reading tossgirls interview and reach's response, it makes u wonder if rigging games are a normal things in the pro-gaming scene in korea, let me put it this way:
tossgirl asked reach to play in a certain way to entertain the crowd, and thus rigging the game, reach didn't rig the game and opted to play fair, and now tossgirl well... kinda bitched about reach, and Reach almost immediate response to that is apologies? why the fuck would u apologize for playing a match fairly? sportsmanship outweighs personal promises no matter how u look at it, unless if reach felt bad for not rigging a game like he was supposed to.
she played well and he played bad? thats all it is. progamers will lose to eachother all the time in practice...dont know why its so hard for people to accept that she won
Oh and to those people who whine about all the tossgirl bashing is becuase shes a girl... well hell no i bet most people just say the stuff they do becuase shes REALLY REALLY BAD.
Yea she plays decently sometimes but so what ive seen players like Zergbong and frozean pull out some way better stuff than that and one is generally agreed to be shit while the other is considered medicore.
Tossgirl is obviously not the best player there and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, but she played a decent game against Reach, who apparently thought he could just walk through it.
She did many things right, including being very careful with her pushes, mine placements, turret positioning and unit composition.
On the other hand, Reach (carelessly) streamed units at her in the early-game, just expecting her to crumble.
One tiny detail that adds to the case against this match being rigged beforehand - look how nervous she was before the game (and during the game also. You could see how tense she got after she first pushed back Reach's carriers). She even forgot to put her earphones in. :D
Honestly, I was torn about this game. I mean, I love to see the Mantoss do well, but Tossgirl just really needed this win. It must really suck to be the one person every progamer is embarrassed to lose against.
Okay I watched the VOD (thanks Woody) and whatever it was that seemed fishy the first time I watched it didn't seem so suspicious this time around. Innocent until proven guilty, and I'll let someone else take the helm if they want to prove anything. Congrats on a game well played, Tossgirl.
I don't know where you guys are getting the idea of rigging or throwing away meaningful matches from. This tournament is KeSPA sponsored and has a large prize pool - there is no reason anyone would rig this match.
The game in question between Reach and Tossgirl was a showmatch in Germany for foreigners. Tossgirl and Reach came up with a plan beforehand to show an entertaining game with a lot of tricks for foreigners, and Reach backed off on the idea as the game started and ended up winning. The game had no meaning other than the foreigners' enjoyment at that time. There was no money, fame or rankings involved. There simply is no similarities between that situation and now.
From the Yellow interview it sounded like the ACE players haven't been able to practice very well lately, that could be the reason for his performance in this game.
If thinking it was rigged helps you sleep at night, whatever. I for one am getting so annoyed at every week there being a new "omg XXXX threw the match" conspiracy. You don't throw a match that can win you 40,000 against Tossgirl who everyone in the world will rag on you for losing to.
On July 21 2009 01:34 Nevuk wrote: Reach recently lost to tiny in a series. That's far worse, to me, than to lose to tossgirl. At this point, she's only being stigmatized for being female. Tossgirl is basically either at an average b-teamer level or just slightly above it. There are way worse players out there. Cat, for instance is like 0-5 in minor league. (I think he's neo.g.minam now.) Even very good players can lose to b-teamers in bo1 matches, and being in ACE guarantees that Reach might only have 50% of the practice time tossgirl does (she recently mentioned she's practicing 14 hours a day for this tournament, ACE members have 8 hours I think) and might not have as good practice partners. What terrans are on ace? Casy? Cloud? Ruby is there, but i don't think he's even done with basic yet. I LB tossgirl because I thought she'd be able to take one of the ACE players in this tournament. I do think that tossgirl would benefit from being on a team that actually participates in minor league, though.
Reach losing to Tossgirl isn't really what's upsetting me, it's just how Reach played so bad as compared to when he usually does, as though to throw away the game. Most, if not all his decision making was poor and bad.
You are really making Reach seem better than he actually is. He's been shaky for years, and has a negative score for 2009, definitely not a top-player.
There's no reason to think the game was set up - Tossgirl played what was probably the best game of her career, doing most things right and having quite good micro (only thing I really thought she was lacking was more scouting). Reach couldn't really get past her defenses (turret placement was good btw), but still managed to pressure her enough for people to claim she'd already lost about halfway through the game. But she managed to keep her calm and push to victory in a convincing manner. Seriously, she played a good game with solid TvP, and all people can do is call it rigged. Give her some credit for beating someone noone thought she would instead of just making lame excuses about it.
EPT
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