• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:58
CEST 03:58
KST 10:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202547RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 616 users

[MSL Spoiler] - Page 2

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
July 11 2009 17:21 GMT
#21
On July 12 2009 01:55 Frits wrote:
Meh, I think zero is way better than calm right now.

this kid is going nuts in ZvP =pp
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
ActualSteve
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States627 Posts
July 11 2009 17:21 GMT
#22
I liked the Flash game.
Birthday ruined.
You are now breathing manually.
loupouk
Profile Joined May 2003
France105 Posts
July 11 2009 17:22 GMT
#23
In fact i'm rooting for Effot, Jaedong Calm and Zero... it's so hard to make a choise... they are all playing so well. Calm stategic play is very entertaining. I just hope that it doesn't end with a zvsz final.
stafu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia1196 Posts
July 11 2009 17:23 GMT
#24
I've been a fan of and following Calm for a while now, I really love watching the way he plays. That said, I'm still a little apprehensive about how he's going to go in individual leagues, given the huge amount of talent he's up against, but he definitely has a shot and I'd be glad to see him win. He's pretty underrated IMO.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
July 11 2009 17:23 GMT
#25
On July 12 2009 02:21 ActualSteve wrote:
I liked the Flash game.
Birthday ruined.


his birthday was on Sunday, the game was on Monday
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-11 17:27:08
July 11 2009 17:23 GMT
#26
On July 12 2009 01:28 joohyunee wrote:
He might be only #7 in the PR right now, but from what I've seen from him recently, he's a strong Dark Horse to win this MSL. Not many people know this, but (Z)Calm is the zerg with the 2nd most wins behind (Z)Jaedong in the Proleague with ~40 wins. (he's just been shaded by Jaedong's domination) Since June, he is 10-3, taking down (T)Flash (FlaSh has admitted that he's scared to play against Calm, according to the commentators), (T)Mind, (T)Sea, and (Z)ZerO. It's not so much the record that leads me to believe he can take this OSL, though; it's his playstyle.

What characterizes Calm's play? I can think of Ballsy aggression and creative builds. But it's more a combination of the two, working together to create his greatest weapon: unpredictability (hint: ballsy builds). I believe Calm's strongest trait is that he forces open openings in the opponent's play. I don't think he has Flash's style of "I know what the other guy's going to do just by feeling it out" and try to abuse a hole in the opponent's play; Calm is different.

He literally rips apart openings in his opponents through 1) Ballsy builds (told you!) 2) clever mindgame tactics that abuse the opponents' scouting 3) aggression with balls of steel. he attacks where the opponent is most uncomfortable at an uncomfortable timing, thereby disrupting the opponent's timing/overall plan for the game.


I see what you did there.

Calm definitely has ballsy builds, creative aggression, and uncomfortably uncomfortable timing in uncomfortable situations, but I just don't see the raw skill needed to win quite yet. Calm looks like a perennial Top 8 finisher, but builds will only get you so far, against incredible talents like JD, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash, and EffOrt, I see Calm coming just short this year.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
July 11 2009 17:34 GMT
#27
I used to really think Calm was bad but he's improved substantially. I'll guarantee he won't win the MSL tho.
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-11 17:41:58
July 11 2009 17:39 GMT
#28
(Z)Calm is like his teammate (P)Kal. He's in the top 6 of his race, but he's not the best. Also, he seems to fly under the radar in a similar fashion to (P)Kal. I have to be honest, I haven't watched many of his games, I prefer to the unheeded aggression of (Z)Kwanro.


Also, it seems like we could be reaching a golden age for zerg players.
mog87
Profile Joined October 2008
United States1586 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-11 17:49:37
July 11 2009 17:43 GMT
#29
On July 12 2009 02:00 Fontong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2009 01:44 mog87 wrote:
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote:
Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.

He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.

also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said

edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did


I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.

But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.

Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.

Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)

Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.

Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.

Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.



Lol, so flash gets rushed for his style a few times and all of a sudden he sucks? Please. Did you watch the games or just look at the results. Flash is still better than effort and fantasy, Im not even gonna use the game between Flash and effort as supporing evidence because that was just beyond dumb, Im still rather upset effort didnt defend that thus causing a chain of events which leads to jd vs zero in ro8, but I digress Flash is stronger than Fanatsy in every matchup except TvP, which is close but fantasy has alot more pinache and is definitely more exciting. Effort is damn good but hes definitely not better than Flash yet.

edit: Wow If zero wins he probably fights Flash in ro8? Jesus how lame is that.
Tonyy
Profile Joined December 2007
United States86 Posts
July 11 2009 17:47 GMT
#30
Calm will not win MSL
Is there life guards at the spawning pool?
Leath
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Canada1724 Posts
July 11 2009 17:49 GMT
#31
Inter.Calm + Hwasin WCG finals = Throwing games

So, I dont like Calm
Hope Effort will manhandle him.
http://www.kongregate.com/?referrer=Sagess
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-11 19:16:40
July 11 2009 18:52 GMT
#32
On July 12 2009 02:43 mog87 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2009 02:00 Fontong wrote:
On July 12 2009 01:44 mog87 wrote:
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote:
Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.

He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.

also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said

edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did


I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.

But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.

Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.

Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)

Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.

Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.

Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.



Lol, so flash gets rushed for his style a few times and all of a sudden he sucks? Please. Did you watch the games or just look at the results. Flash is still better than effort and fantasy, Im not even gonna use the game between Flash and effort as supporing evidence because that was just beyond dumb, Im still rather upset effort didnt defend that thus causing a chain of events which leads to jd vs zero in ro8, but I digress Flash is stronger than Fanatsy in every matchup except TvP, which is close but fantasy has alot more pinache and is definitely more exciting. Effort is damn good but hes definitely not better than Flash yet.

edit: Wow If zero wins he probably fights Flash in ro8? Jesus how lame is that.

Flash has always been getting rushed because his style is too greedy.

You can't say "OMG he got cheesed a bunch of times it doesn't count!!!!" becuase cheesing flash has always been a huge weakness of his. He just doesn't have the monster game he used to in order to back it up

Yes I did watch the games, Flash needs to be more like Jaedong. Jaedong is so strong against cheese. Flash isn't S class anymore. He isn't better than effort or fantasy and hasn't been winning more than effort or fantasy.

Edit: actually what the fuck are you saying, kwanro was brilliant in his game. he just outplayed flash. flash even scouted the early extractor. that was completely flash's fault. you would think that he would have learned about 2 hatch builds by now, but apparently he didnt.

Flash's record in past months is actually WORSE than both of those players.

If Flash was nearly as good as he used to be we wouldn't even be having his conversation. If you are even needing to argue that flash is still on the same level as Jaedong or Bisu you are obviously wrong already. There is a reason that Flash is lower on PR than both effort and fantasy -- they are playing better than he is right now.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
July 11 2009 19:35 GMT
#33
Flash is the current king of TvT. But he's only a cut above the other best TvT players... not enough that they can't catch up. Clearly S-class.

In both non-mirrors, he loses almost every game he plays against players who're powerful in the matchup, and wins almost every game against players who aren't. This is (to me) a form of A-class play.

I'd allow an S-class player one weak matchup, but not two. By his performance over the past few months, Flash is no longer S-class.
My strategy is to fork people.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 11 2009 19:40 GMT
#34
Calm was always known for using weird builds. The thing is, he just isn't at the level where Jaedong and Effort are at. Not to mention, if Calm meets Jaedong or Effort he will get massacred.
o3.power91
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bahrain5288 Posts
July 11 2009 19:58 GMT
#35
On July 12 2009 02:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2009 01:34 TwoStep wrote:
I wouldn't mind Calm winning the MSL. Who would he play in the Ro8 assuming the higher seeds win? Flash or Bisu, I think.


MSL Round of 8 brackets (predictions)

(Z)Jaedong vs (T)Canata

(Z)EffOrt vs (Z)Calm

(Z)ZerO vs (Z)Kwanro

(P)Bisu vs (T)Iris

IF IF IF those players advance who already did win first game.

too.. much... zerg...
mog87
Profile Joined October 2008
United States1586 Posts
July 11 2009 20:04 GMT
#36
Lol comparison for past few months I.E since proleague started back up.

Fantasy TvP 11-2 (Losses to Pure and Bisu)
Flash TvP 12-5 (Losses to Shuttle (in a bo3), Stork, Kal, Jangbi, and Backho)

Fantasy TvZ (note he barely plays it) 6-5 (3x Loses to Big Dong, Hogil, and Calm
Flash TvZ 8-6 ( other than the 4 recent loses (JD, Yarnc, Kwanro, Calm) the other 2 were vs effort on HBR and Oversky on Battle Royale lol)

Flash TvT 11-2 (Currently on 10 game streak) Loses to Hiya and Skyhigh.
Fantasy TvT 6-3 ( Loses to Flash, Lomo, and Skyhigh)

In summary, Flash hasnt beaten a good protoss in quite awhile and has lost to every dragon hes played recently. Fantasy's TvZ record is definitely not strong enough to make a case over Flash, neither is his TvT.

In short I could careless about what one arbitrarily thinks is a S-class player, but looking at the facts you cant make a case for Fantasy being better at Flash other than at TvP, which is by far Fantasy's best MU, and the matchup he plays the most, clearly there is a reason why SKT1 sends him out hoping to get a match vs Toss. So if Flash isnt S-Class then no terran is.

Also about Jaedong being anti cheeseble, Light just "cheesed" him, and Skyhigh makes a fool out him with his cheeses,(yes I know JD beats him straight up), the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure. But If you wanna talk anti cheese Zero, recently would be a better example stopping multiple cheeses from gogo and Skyhigh.

o3.power91
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bahrain5288 Posts
July 11 2009 20:10 GMT
#37
On July 12 2009 05:04 mog87 wrote:
the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure.

I still believe any player other than Jaedong would've lost to that

I tried the same cheese on my next PvZ on Heartbreak Ridge. I barely won and never tried it again though
mog87
Profile Joined October 2008
United States1586 Posts
July 11 2009 20:11 GMT
#38
On July 12 2009 04:40 koreasilver wrote:
Calm was always known for using weird builds. The thing is, he just isn't at the level where Jaedong and Effort are at. Not to mention, if Calm meets Jaedong or Effort he will get massacred.


Calm can beat Effort probably, JD is the pillar of ZvZ, everyone else is fallible. Upper Lvl ZvZers like Effort,Zero, Calm can all beat each other, Its pretty hard to call out a favorite.
ambit!ous1
Profile Joined September 2007
United States3662 Posts
July 11 2009 20:12 GMT
#39
Calm is a very smart player indeed

Go Calm!

Bisu[Shield] / ♔ SoYeon
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
July 11 2009 20:16 GMT
#40
Calm looks amazing. If there's a zerg player who I want to take the MSL, it's Calm.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 2m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 228
RuFF_SC2 161
Livibee 123
Ketroc 36
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 62
Icarus 3
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1128
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K815
Coldzera 332
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox631
Other Games
summit1g14078
tarik_tv9597
Day[9].tv887
JimRising 559
C9.Mang0199
ViBE174
Maynarde155
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1861
BasetradeTV40
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 61
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 20
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4168
Other Games
• Scarra1655
• Day9tv887
• Shiphtur270
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
8h 2m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.