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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
As a side question, who would you want to come back to dominance? (or maintain in the case of Bisu) I'm not really qualified to answer my first question as I started watching the pro scene on the tail end of Savior's reign while Nada was still doing well. So I've seen the end of one and the beginning of another. For my second question, I'd like to see Boxer. He's always been my favorite in any match. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
Before the OSL curse was broken by nada there was never an OSL reign, the same goes for after too! Only the MSL can be dominated. | ||
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:07 oshibori_probe wrote: too my knowledge only BIsu, Nada, and Savior have consecutive league wins. Before the OSL curse was broken by nada there was never an OSL reign, the same goes for after too! Only the MSL can be dominated. oov? | ||
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chobopeon
United States7342 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:04 Phyre wrote: Many progamers have had a period of complete dominance, most recently Bisu and Savior before him. I'm curious though if you had to pick one of these eras of domiace who's was the best? Define "best" however you want to interpret. As a side question, who would you want to come back to dominance? (or maintain in the case of Bisu) I'm not really qualified to answer my first question as I started watching the pro scene on the tail end of Savior's reign while Nada was still doing well. So I've seen the end of one and the beginning of another. For my second question, I'd like to see Boxer. He's always been my favorite in any match. i'd like to see someone answer something other than boxer. if you do, what makes you think i wont cut you? | ||
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dementus
Singapore1151 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Column/oovrecord.jpg) | ||
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ii.blitzkrieg
Canada1122 Posts
edit: sorry forgot to post my candidate, I would have to agree and I was going to put that picture of oov up lol. I'm pretty sure he had the highest winning rates in his period of dominance than any other player, but not 100% on that. | ||
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:07 oshibori_probe wrote: too my knowledge only BIsu, Nada, and Savior have consecutive league wins. Before the OSL curse was broken by nada there was never an OSL reign, the same goes for after too! Only the MSL can be dominated. Really? Wow, I was under the impression that players like Oov, Reach, July, etc. all had these time periods where they were Savior-like. | ||
GTR
51462 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
he went 27-0 tvz at the start of his career. a streak this long will never ever happen again | ||
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miNi
Korea (South)2010 Posts
oov and july's reign were very savior-like i didn't follow progaming before that i think oov's was even worse than savior's | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
let's not forget he was the best player on earth and virtually unbeatable for two solid years | ||
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koryano321
United States309 Posts
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Giyom by a mile let's not forget he was the best player on earth and virtually unbeatable for two solid years Agreed. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
way back when is when anything was possible, and ppl only really dominate MSL after MSL. It seems that the OSL usually is just a tad bit better. Also werent the maps when oov had that big streak vs z, T >>> Z? I mean damn, if ure playing 815 and cultivation period, zerg is fucked. edit: I know oov is great and all, but I never knew he actually dominated the MSL. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Giyom by a mile let's not forget he was the best player on earth and virtually unbeatable for two solid years good one ^^ I guess op could rephrase the question to "modern era" like they do for baseball after the color barrier was broken, or when the mound was lowered. I for one, am not qualified to give a well informed answer  | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On July 28 2007 01:02 oshibori_probe wrote: How many starleagues did Giyom win? OSL/MSL wasnt realy around in that time. He did win the first OSL ever if you dont count the Korean open as OSL. But that was around the end of his reign. To answer the original question I dont realy want any of the old people making comebacks. However I would like to see Much, Iris or Free dominating  | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On July 28 2007 01:02 oshibori_probe wrote: How many starleagues did Giyom win? one | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:09 dementus wrote: thats an awesome record. I have only been watchin progaming for a little over half a year so I can't really say. sAviOr's play was very entertaining though during his osl run. edit On July 28 2007 00:07 oshibori_probe wrote: too my knowledge only BIsu, Nada, and Savior have consecutive league wins. Before the OSL curse was broken by nada there was never an OSL reign, the same goes for after too! Only the MSL can be dominated. both oOv and Boxer had consecutive league wins. oOv had 3msls in a row and Boxer had back to back OSL wins | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
savior's was my favorite | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
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estebannam
United States187 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:09 dementus wrote: | ||
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Evilmonkey.
United States1628 Posts
On July 28 2007 01:28 oshibori_probe wrote: However, boxer was left behind when macro counted. If left behind means 3 more OSL finals appearences -_-. | ||
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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micronesia
United States24690 Posts
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GTR
51462 Posts
I believe no one ever at all has done that before, except maybe NaDa, but that was ages ago, and for an extremely short period. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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SiZ.FaNtAsY
Korea (South)1497 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:09 dementus wrote: qft | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33399 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3424 Posts
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dementus
Singapore1151 Posts
boxer's reign was definitely beneficial as his entertaining, creative, and innovative play drew many fans to the e-sports scene. his amazing plays demonstrated to everyone how entertaining watching a mere computer game could be. it was also during this period that his rivalry with yellow was the most intense, so this spiced up e-sports. games were definitely exciting to watch, kinda like an 'el classico' (real madrid vs barca, huge rivalry in spanish football in case non-soccer fans are reading this) of progaming if you will. i didn't watch progaming around the time when nada emerged, but i can imagine it must've been amazing when a wunderkind appeared on the scene and started consistently beating boxer, and other established pros (he beat chrh in a televised game as an amateur too). the combination of giant killing, and the rise of a talented, young star definitely drew even more interest to the game. i also feel nada's strength in macro also paved the way for oov's later success, as the game slowly moved away from micro intensive play. of course, we all know he grew up, endured and overcame a few slumps to become arguably the most successful bw progamer of all time. the iloveoov, july, ipxzerg streaks were spectacular, because of how they came out of nowhere and more or less smashed everyone (oov's disgusting 27-0 tvz debut run, and how savior went to 4 more msl finals after winning uzoo certainly come to mind). i still go with iloveoov though, because the stats during his reign were disgusting. progamers were getting overwhelmed by sheer macro, and i think it's safe to say iloveoov's run had a huge part to play in how the modern game has leaned towards macro. i also can't imagine someone suddenly appearing on the scene and raping it up the way he did again, although savior was pretty close to that. also note, he won 3 msls and 1 osl in 2003-2004, the period of his dominance. this run had human drama (overcoming his master in the ever osl final), and was a demonstration of brute force (3 consecutive msl wins), too. as such, i feel oov's run was the 'best' one, if you were to go by statistics, and intangibles. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
although nada's was amazing as well.. | ||
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taktak
91 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
Even if the numbers dont show a iloveoovesque dominance, It was humilliation in most games. He just played with Goliath drops TvP. Valkiries TvZ. He dominated with everything. He could be losing a TvZ and came back by using dropships alone. Even if he didnt won as much as others like iloveoov, savior or nada, his wins and comeback totally made his opponents look like newbies at the game. | ||
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Pads
England3228 Posts
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LibertyTerran
Vietnam711 Posts
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
On July 28 2007 04:03 IntoTheWow wrote: Are you kidding me? Boxer. Even if the numbers dont show a iloveoovesque dominance, It was humilliation in most games. He just played with Goliath drops TvP. Valkiries TvZ. He dominated with everything. He could be losing a TvZ and came back by using dropships alone. Even if he didnt won as much as others like iloveoov, savior or nada, his wins and comeback totally made his opponents look like newbies at the game. This type of question can be misleading in that it is asking for the most dominant reign of a player. The game has evolved quite a bit from its beginnings, so each time period closer to the present in which a player played is more and more difficult. Nowadays, there are so many good pros that it is a tossup to see who will be in the finals of a league. Everyone is much more evenly matched than boxer's or giyom's day. Now this brings in the arguement, is someone who is pretty dominant in the current age, such as savior (a few months ago really), more worthy of the title of strongest than Nada or Boxer, who's styles were parts of the major evolutions of the game. Would you have to go to a middle ground, such as iloveoov, who dominated not all that long ago when competition was getting very strong, yet still showed amazing results. I think the best answer can be done by statistics showing best winning percentage of any of these players over the course of their reign. People will try to dispute the statistics and prove somehow that their favorite is was the strongest, yet pretty much any other way of looking at it becomes more opinion and conjecture than fact and truth. | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
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Raidern
Brazil3811 Posts
even today you get the feeling that if he really wanted he'd be kicking anyone's ass | ||
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Musli
Poland5130 Posts
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.dragoon
United States749 Posts
On July 28 2007 04:28 RivetHead wrote: This type of question can be misleading in that it is asking for the most dominant reign of a player. The game has evolved quite a bit from its beginnings, so each time period closer to the present in which a player played is more and more difficult. Nowadays, there are so many good pros that it is a tossup to see who will be in the finals of a league. Everyone is much more evenly matched than boxer's or giyom's day. Now this brings in the arguement, is someone who is pretty dominant in the current age, such as savior (a few months ago really), more worthy of the title of strongest than Nada or Boxer, who's styles were parts of the major evolutions of the game. Would you have to go to a middle ground, such as iloveoov, who dominated not all that long ago when competition was getting very strong, yet still showed amazing results. I think the best answer can be done by statistics showing best winning percentage of any of these players over the course of their reign. People will try to dispute the statistics and prove somehow that their favorite is was the strongest, yet pretty much any other way of looking at it becomes more opinion and conjecture than fact and truth. That's a very good post, points which I'd like to add to myself. Also take into consideration of this so-called group of reigning champs - Boxer, Nada, OOv, July, Savior, and notice just how many are terran. I'd like to suggest that those who champion the rise of one particular race and/or reverse the terrible fortune of that race should be given special notice. For example, Boxer's play really put terran on the map, July's ascension reversed the abysmal zvt precedence, and Savior's reign solidified it post-JulyZerg. Those who simply follow in the footsteps of their figurehead and those who spearhead new ways to tackle the problem are on totally different levels. As for Bisu though, his PvZ and PvT phenomenal, and he has shown in the past for having a pulse for exceptional PvP (although he lost all of his recent proleague matches, among them vP Anytime and vZ intercalm). It really is still wait and see for Bisu. At his current situation he's on fire, but across-the-board dominating he is not. | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
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.dragoon
United States749 Posts
On July 28 2007 05:32 Musli wrote: I know that some players had awesome stats and were dominating on pro scene, but for me while dominating you have to be spectacular. I've never found oov, sAviOr or Bisu spectacular. Ofc they have awesome skill but it wasnt something that driven audience crazy like July's muta micro and agressiveness, Boxer m&m micro and tactical comebacks or even NaDa tornado style in his prime, complete terran destroyer annihilating everyone on his way, with awesome micro, 350 APM macro and multitasking. It was really like tornado (game starts, NaDa moves, opponent GGs) ;> You gotta be kidding, what about Savior's watershed defense? OOv's army appearing out of thin air? Bisu's vZ in dominating fashion, a never-before-seen sight? | ||
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fbs
United Kingdom2476 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
It seemed like no one can beat him. IMO he looked more invincible then Savior in his prime. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Saviors dominance was breathtaking but way too short. Giyom back then was the single force to reckon with. Bisu might be the next one.. | ||
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
1: Blatant fanboyism 2: The incredibly funny, original and stylish ways he could crush even the mightiest opponents. And, something that hasn't been mentioned yet, the way he totally clowned foreigners like Blackman and Elky in the WCG's. Sure the WCG doesn't mean much, compared to the Korean leagues, but I'm sure nobody here can show me a game as funny as boxer vs blackman, with [pG]Korn giving the most biased commentary ever and in the end just going '....wow'. No progamer has spawned things like that =) Pure entertainment. Boxer's games could make your jaw drop because they'd show you things you'd never even considered possible. I remember watching his game vs terranteacher, and literally shouting WHAT THE FUCK when he suddenly, out of thin air, pulled the lockdown on all of his BC's. | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
the emperor was most charismatic giyom was legendary i personally like boxer best though...we all have a hero inside of us | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
23-7 TvT(more than half of those losses came from having to play against Nada every time) 14-2 TvZ 12-1 TvP A somewhat large portion of this forum thought he was a TvT specialist since he pretty much made Nada disappear, but a screenshot showed that it was his only matchup below 80% in MSL. His OGN TvZ record was also somewhere around 21-1 at that time, leading many people to act like his match vs JulyZerg was a foregone conclusion until it happened. iloveoov also dominated the MBC Team League by himself, beating the entire other team 4-0 every other match. Often you would see someone like Nada taking out two of the boxer team's top players by himself and putting it into a losing position, only to have oov come out and win the next 4 games in a row. Does anyone know his MTL record back in the day? | ||
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Daveed
United States236 Posts
but I also love Oov | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On July 28 2007 08:51 iamke55 wrote: As of now everything you may want to know can be answered: http://teamliquid.net/tlpd[..] Does anyone know his MTL record back in the day? | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
Savior for displaying unparalleled dominance with zerg. Oov for crushing the scene with the most disgusting progaming stats ever. Nada for his grand slam & more. | ||
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dementus
Singapore1151 Posts
note that i assumed that these players were 'dominant' during the period where they had consecutive finals appearances. 1st iloveoov (09/04/03 to 08/29/04), 3 msl finals appearances in a row. 84 wins - 30 losses (73.68%) overall career: 213 wins - 128 losses (62.46%) 2nd boxer (03/01/01 to 04/14/02), 3 osl finals appearances in a row, 1 msl finals appearance. 42 wins - 19 losses (68.85%) overall career: 233 wins - 179 losses (56.55%) 3rd savior (04/21/05 to 03/03/07), 5 msl finals appearances in a row. 90 wins - 44 losses (67.16%) overall career: 134 wins - 78 losses (63.21%) 4th nada (04/18/02 to 07/19/03), 4 msl finals appearances in a row. 97 wins - 52 losses (65.10%) overall career: 324 wins - 202 losses (61.60%) edit: of course, itw has a point when he mentions that whether or not the wins during these periods were spectacular tourism bus rides should be a factor in considering how 'great' these players were at their peak, but if we consider intangibles such as this, we'll never agree on an answer. going by statistics alone, it would seem iloveoov was the beastliest of them all. also, since i used different time norms for each player's dominance, this could very well be terribly inaccurate. it'd be nice if someone more knowledgeable than me in progaming history drew up these stats, but for a set time norm, like say 6 months or 12 months. | ||
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phr4n7ik
Canada10 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On July 28 2007 02:17 GTR-2-Go wrote: OK, to be honest, you can't really say anyone, ANYONE has dominated or "reigned" BW. To "reign" Korean e-Sports, you have to a) Productively do extremely good all the time in both OSL's and MSL's and b) Good in proleagues I believe no one ever at all has done that before, except maybe NaDa, but that was ages ago, and for an extremely short period. Savior fits this bill perfectly He won 3 MSLs before reaching the finals for the fourth, won the OSL, owned Superfights, and was a complete monster in the Proleague. Imo, although Oov's dominance was pretty scary, no one was more ferocious than the Maestro himself | ||
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
On July 28 2007 02:17 GTR-2-Go wrote: OK, to be honest, you can't really say anyone, ANYONE has dominated or "reigned" BW. To "reign" Korean e-Sports, you have to a) Productively do extremely good all the time in both OSL's and MSL's and b) Good in proleagues I believe no one ever at all has done that before, except maybe NaDa, but that was ages ago, and for an extremely short period. Unless you count reign as the number one ranked Kespa player. You might not be on top of both leagues, but if you are the number one ranked player for more than a month you more or less have a reign. To dominate you don't have to be undefeated, you just have to be the winningest player at the time. Although I do understand the point you are making. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On July 28 2007 05:44 .dragoon wrote: You gotta be kidding, what about Savior's watershed defense? OOv's army appearing out of thin air? Bisu's vZ in dominating fashion, a never-before-seen sight? | ||
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Savior, Oov, Nada... | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
That's my guess atleast. That, or they don't remember it as clearly. While it's certainly admirable and he's forever remembered as a legend, and is still an amazing player today obviously, if people saw Savior / Nada / Boxer attending WCG, they'd see Boxer as the most likely to lose a game, or games out of those three. He did / does a lot for the game, and he's certainly an honorable mention. | ||
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ScoutWBF
Germany605 Posts
Oov still is my favorite Player because he always was kind of sympathic to me. I like his play style and I hope he will be at the Top again soon. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:09 dementus wrote: this would scare the shit out of people | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On July 28 2007 19:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Kinda surprised nobody has mentioned Boxer really (at least I didnt see it). As a "devil's advocate" I would like to throw that name out. He may not have had consecutive big titles but he certainly held the KESPA #1 rank for nearly a record time I believe? His TvZ was considered fairly dominant and his TvT was near the tops. Is it because his TvP was so weak nobody considers him? BoxeR held kespa #1 rank for 17 consecutive months, IIRC. Longest reign. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Anyways I'm pretty biased because I really love terran, after that I'd say savior. I never really followed progaming in boxer's reign, my interest started around the time his reign ended sadly, so I can't really have an opinion on that. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:09 dementus wrote: G fucking G | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Oov then Savior. Boxer is very debatable too, but then so is Giyom. If you guys thought Savior antis were bad, I remember how much hate Oov got for raping everyone early on. LOL People hated him cuz he won too much. He's only a shadow of himself atm. ~_~ | ||
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I-Emerge
United States435 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:27 koryano321 wrote: oov is one of the scarriest 15 month long streaks you have ever seen. comon a winning percentage of like 78%? even savior never reached that but meh, gaming scene is diff than it was back than. julyzerg also had like a 12 month reigning era but yeah.... how could you forget those people? I loved July's era. I would like to see him reign again. I entered this seen during his time and didn't really get to see oov but wow! Ovv was crazy... I think I have to see some of his videos from the beginning of his career. ---I-Emerge | ||
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ChezGod
United States590 Posts
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
But if we want to talk about who we think was the best in our eyes at the time, this is totally different. For me, it's July, hands down. I found him more terrifying during his post Oov smashing days than any other player before or after. He broke ZvP. Stats be damned, no one ever ran in ZvP like he did. No one! | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
too bad yellow never had a reign well he did have one as the best and most powerful zerg player but constaly got shoved into 2nd in the leagues next to boxer or some random terran back in the day | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
On July 28 2007 19:45 Last Romantic wrote: BoxeR held kespa #1 rank for 17 consecutive months, IIRC. Longest reign. haha dam savior ruined his but right now savior has been ranked 1 in kespa for 7 months in a row this hole year haha always by like 500 points to | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On July 28 2007 19:01 Cambium wrote: THree names popped out of my head: Savior, Oov, Nada... no one else should really be considered for "best reign" maybe boxer or grrr... or if "reign" is only like 3 months then you can pick any random starleague winner like july/xellos/bisu/nalra etc. | ||
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Gryffindor_us
United States5606 Posts
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Sadist
United States7242 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On July 29 2007 00:16 Gryffindor_us wrote: I should stay out of this thread I think =_=. NADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA | ||
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
It was said at the time during his reign(even by the commentators) that if you allowed nada to get any base past his natural then there was no way to win...thats just wtf good It was mainly on LT that they were referring to. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
Boxer, oov, stork, and bisu have all had their respective reigns (I now am better informed thanks to you guys), bisu's reign is stil continuing. However im going to do my usual radical thought proceses and predict a bisu slump. I guess there have been some periods of domination, but they usually end pretty sadly. | ||
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1tym
Korea (South)2425 Posts
However it wasn't until 1999 when I've watched the progamer's open final between Freemura's and [B&G]TheBoy that I became really interested in it. I've witnessed emergence of every top gamers in Starcraft pro-gaming scene, Ssamjang, Freemura, [GG99]slayer, Skelton (although he never dominated), BBoGul (Now a commentator at OSL,[z-zone]Byun, [B_Blade]LeadeR (Commentator at OSL), Grrrr, IntotheRain, Boxer, Garimto, Nada, July, Oov, Savior, Bisu etc... Now going by statistics alone, it's safe to say that Oov's was the most impressive one, but as someone who experienced and seen every every top gamers reign I have to say that Boxer's domination period was the most glorious one. No one had impressed the fans like Boxer did, No other gamer had the popularity he had and no other gamer excited the audiences like he did. Starcraft owes a lot to Boxer as he really contributed to the scene more than anyone else did, as he attracted countless audiences, he has shown that same sort of excitement that can be felt at watching sport can be experienced watching StarCraft match... well the list goes on and on So yeah.. I am going with Boxer. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 28 2007 00:07 oshibori_probe wrote: too my knowledge only BIsu, Nada, and Savior have consecutive league wins. Before the OSL curse was broken by nada there was never an OSL reign, the same goes for after too! Only the MSL can be dominated. Only player to ever win two OSLs in a row = BoxeR. All hail. Oh and Oov has consecutive wins. | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
On July 29 2007 02:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Having witnessed all of them, I'd have to say Nada's was the most impressive It was said at the time during his reign(even by the commentators) that if you allowed nada to get any base past his natural then there was no way to win...thats just wtf good It was mainly on LT that they were referring to.Yea, I have watched so many reps of Nadas on LT and when his macro kicks in he was just unbeatable. Against protoss he went tornado terran at their ass, owning everything up in a matter of minutes after moving out. I think NaDa and Oov are close in terms of dominance. Surely Oov has a stellar record (especially TvZ) but NaDa has definately been more consistant in the long run. I would say Nada is the most accomplished and "best" SC player of all times, all in all. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13008 Posts
Suffice to say my vote goes to Boxer. He was so good during his prime, I remember him embarassing zergs with wraiths and medic+optic flare drops. Classic. | ||
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
One comment on Bisu though. While he's certainly on a hot streak I just don't see him in the same light as Savior during his era. I remember comments like "Birds fly, dogs die, people fuck, and Savior wins" and "You can't cheese Savior, Savior will eat your soul." It just didn't seem to occur to people that Savior could lose and he was always the safe bet. Bisu doesn't seem quite as unstoppable and untouchable as Savior or like many of the other greats you guys are mentioning like Oov, Nada, Boxer, etc. | ||
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Gokey
United States2722 Posts
On July 29 2007 08:09 Phyre wrote: Wow, really nice to see the replies to this. It's like a little history lesson on the world of SC that I missed before I started following the pro scene. Almost makes me feel nostalgic for things I didn't witness. One comment on Bisu though. While he's certainly on a hot streak I just don't see him in the same light as Savior during his era. I remember comments like "Birds fly, dogs die, people fuck, and Savior wins" and "You can't cheese Savior, Savior will eat your soul." It just didn't seem to occur to people that Savior could lose and he was always the safe bet. Bisu doesn't seem quite as unstoppable and untouchable as Savior or like many of the other greats you guys are mentioning like Oov, Nada, Boxer, etc. yeah, bisu does not nearly have the "unstoppable" aura that savior and oov had... in fact, no protoss has ever had something like that | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
I welcome anyone to prove me wrong. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On July 29 2007 08:14 Gokey wrote: yeah, bisu does not nearly have the "unstoppable" aura that savior and oov had... in fact, no protoss has ever had something like that it might just be a matter of time o_o hmmm | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I feel like a traitor now. | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On July 29 2007 08:38 JensOfSweden wrote: True, the dominant races has always been Terran and Zerg. I guess the PvZ matchup is a great struggle for most tosses to be honest and this is a big reason why a toss hasn't been more dominant. I welcome anyone to prove me wrong. actually it's really mostly just terran (boxer, nada, oov).... and then savior although you could count giyom for protoss but that was mostly before the progaming scene developed zergs have had just as much trouble zvt as tosses have had pvz in championship matches really | ||
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Pressure
7326 Posts
On July 28 2007 01:32 estebannam wrote: | ||
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HypersonicEspo
United States74 Posts
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fig_newbie
749 Posts
On July 29 2007 08:14 Gokey wrote: yeah, bisu does not nearly have the "unstoppable" aura that savior and oov had... in fact, no protoss has ever had something like that I'd say Grrr was as close as an unstoppable protoss as you can get | ||
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TehKris
Norway322 Posts
On July 29 2007 06:10 1tym wrote: I have been a witness to starcraft progaming scene since 1998 when Ssamjang was dominating.. However it wasn't until 1999 when I've watched the progamer's open final between Freemura's and [B&G]TheBoy that I became really interested in it. I've witnessed emergence of every top gamers in Starcraft pro-gaming scene, Ssamjang, Freemura, [GG99]slayer, Skelton (although he never dominated), BBoGul (Now a commentator at OSL,[z-zone]Byun, [B_Blade]LeadeR (Commentator at OSL), Grrrr, IntotheRain, Boxer, Garimto, Nada, July, Oov, Savior, Bisu etc... Now going by statistics alone, it's safe to say that Oov's was the most impressive one, but as someone who experienced and seen every every top gamers reign I have to say that Boxer's domination period was the most glorious one. No one had impressed the fans like Boxer did, No other gamer had the popularity he had and no other gamer excited the audiences like he did. Starcraft owes a lot to Boxer as he really contributed to the scene more than anyone else did, as he attracted countless audiences, he has shown that same sort of excitement that can be felt at watching sport can be experienced watching StarCraft match... well the list goes on and on So yeah.. I am going with Boxer. Then I have a question for you. As we know, the Norwegian player Slayer won 2-1 vs I_Love_Star in 2000 KBK (basicly the biggest Tournament that year), but I have also seen I_Love_star was in the finals in 1999. What happened to this player? | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
On July 29 2007 10:32 Locked wrote: actually it's really mostly just terran (boxer, nada, oov).... and then savior although you could count giyom for protoss but that was mostly before the progaming scene developed zergs have had just as much trouble zvt as tosses have had pvz in championship matches really Well, actually I count July as a dominant force as well, maybe I'm wrong though. And I think clearly ZvT is "easier" than PvZ, because otherwise there is no reason why a toss wouldn't have been more dominant. But yea I agree that many zergs struggle in ZvT as well, especially in important games where even a really good zerg user can be demolished by a mediocre terran. Just look at many of the great tosses; great PvT (this is common), great PvP (often), so-and-so PvZ. PvZ is definately holding them back. | ||
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phr4n7ik
Canada10 Posts
On July 28 2007 10:27 Carnac wrote: the fact that a player who wins an OSL almost always gets thrown out of the tournament early in the next season (i.e. in group phase) has been titled OSL curse thats not like throwing them as in if they are winning all their matches the OSL jsut kicks them out?!?! or is it just a common coincidence that people have named. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 29 2007 14:20 phr4n7ik wrote: thats not like throwing them as in if they are winning all their matches the OSL jsut kicks them out?!?! or is it just a common coincidence that people have named. OSL is an established, professional competition, they don't arbitrarily decide to remove players from the tournament  but yeah its been a pretty constant thing throughout OSL history | ||
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Koldblooded
United States661 Posts
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
Zergs, though, are getting more and more gay. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I walk in the streets, I say starcraft. Many people know boxer. Not so many knows even rA, not to mention bisu or w/e oov... What boxer did to BW is like Jordan did to Basketball, there really is no comparison. | ||
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vstar
Korea (South)693 Posts
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
On July 29 2007 16:13 evanthebouncy! wrote: Boxer by a long shot. I walk in the streets, I say starcraft. Many people know boxer. Not so many knows even rA, not to mention bisu or w/e oov... What boxer did to BW is like Jordan did to Basketball, there really is no comparison. If by streets you mean U.S. East, then yes. But, if you say Bisu, thousands of protoss players will answer back. ;P | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On July 29 2007 15:53 Scorpion wrote: PvZ is becoming more and more accessible. Zergs, though, are getting more and more gay. plz explain how zergs are getting more gay. | ||
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Gokey
United States2722 Posts
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
On July 29 2007 16:34 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: plz explain how zergs are getting more gay. Go on Iccup and find out. ;( | ||
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Pressure
7326 Posts
COME ON GUYS ITS HIM(stats) OR BOXER(sheer glorious play) | ||
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Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
On July 29 2007 18:09 Pressure wrote: COME ON GUYS ITS HIM(stats) OR BOXER(sheer glorious play) How about both? :D | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On July 29 2007 16:13 evanthebouncy! wrote: Boxer by a long shot. I walk in the streets, I say starcraft. Many people know boxer. Not so many knows even rA, not to mention bisu or w/e oov... What boxer did to BW is like Jordan did to Basketball, there really is no comparison. Too bad that wasn't the freakin question. Just because boxer is the most famous doesn't mean he was the most dominate. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On July 29 2007 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Too bad that wasn't the freakin question. Just because boxer is the most famous doesn't mean he was the most dominate. It wasn't the question? Thread's name is ' who reign was most dominate ' Boxer's reign made starcraft. Nobody else's reign can say ' Hey I molded the future of starcraft not only through my gameplay, but through my actions outside the game ' Nobody. If we focus on in-game domination it's between Oov and Nada. Nada has just conquered more [3osl] so we can give him the title of ' most dominant ' overall but Oov probably gets the title of ' most dominating ' for his reign. This is a very simple question I don't know why it has taken so many pages. The only real interesting thing is the old history that oldschool sc watchers have said. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On July 29 2007 13:56 JensOfSweden wrote: Well, actually I count July as a dominant force as well, maybe I'm wrong though. And I think clearly ZvT is "easier" than PvZ, because otherwise there is no reason why a toss wouldn't have been more dominant. But yea I agree that many zergs struggle in ZvT as well, especially in important games where even a really good zerg user can be demolished by a mediocre terran. Just look at many of the great tosses; great PvT (this is common), great PvP (often), so-and-so PvZ. PvZ is definately holding them back. Statistics say otherwise. People are so used to terrans owning the crap out of zergs that it almost seems unnatural when zergs take the win. I know most people's gut feelings' tell them otherwise, but statistically speaking, zergs have a harder time against terrans than tosses do against zergs. Stats say so for the year 2005, 2006 and whaddya know? 2007. Why do you think no zerg managed to win a major tournament until 2005? Take a looks at the results of all ZvT, PvZ, TvP BO5 and you will see how horribly lopsided ZvT has been during all these years. Or try looking up the stats of what you thought were a "zerg-friendly map" like Arcadia only to find out that terrans actually are ahead. Protoss killing maps like Mercury are notorious but are actually pretty decent balance-wise when compared to zerg killing maps like Ragnarok. Then why did no protoss dominated like Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior did? Don't include July here because Nal_Ra has been just as good. July kept his Kespa number 1 ranking because the nobody dominated the starcraft scene in 2005, Nal_Ra had way stiffer competition. The answer is that Savior is actually the first non-terran to dominate the progaming scene and that's why people were in awe. He is a freak of nature in the terran-dominant starcraft scene. Watch Xellos vs Yellow OSL finals 4 years ago. Terrans haven't changed all the much since then, but zergs have evolved by leaps and bounds. Maybe Bisu will follow his steps, who knows? Wait for the protoss monster that'll kill all competition, but please for god's sake stop crying PvZ imba!!! because it's getting old. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13008 Posts
Savior took it a step further with his late game management and now zergs like Jaedong and GGplay are profiting. | ||
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NHi.GoMDoRi
Canada51 Posts
I'd say Boxer's reign. I can honestly say he isn't my favourite player, but he does have distinct qualities that make him a model candidate. If the word "reign" is defined by: "to be larger in number, quantity, power, status or importance" Its gotta be Boxer. His winning ratio may not be the highest, the number of OSLs and MSLs won may not be highest either, but his authority and importance to pro-gaming is undeniably remarkable. You guys already know his accomplishments, how he handpicked oov, .. etc, etc whatever so no need to restate the obvious, but for myself, authority/importance/status matters most, and Boxer is unsurpassed in that area as of yet. | ||
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RebelHeart
New Zealand722 Posts
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Sudyn
United States744 Posts
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SpArK
Canada33 Posts
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cravy
United States525 Posts
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X_LiNe
France89 Posts
When you're talking about eras, for me it's like comparing pele and ronaldhino. The level is not the same, technicaly ronaldhino > pele eaf, but pele is still the king, cuz he was soooooooooo good compared to the players of his time. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
As a side question, who would you want to come back to dominance? Not dominance, but another starleague title for boxer would be awesome from start to finish. Just imagine a bo5 final, 5th game and boxer pulls out a legendary micro stunt and wins the set. Pow! Everyone screams, cries, faints, the emperor pushs his fist up in the air and somehow all girls in the first row get pregnant. | ||
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NHi.GoMDoRi
Canada51 Posts
On July 30 2007 03:44 Jayson X wrote: Not dominance, but another starleague title for boxer would be awesome from start to finish. Just imagine a bo5 final, 5th game and boxer pulls out a legendary micro stunt and wins the set. Pow! Everyone screams, cries, faints, the emperor pushs his fist up in the air and somehow all girls in the first row get pregnant. ROFL i just pictured it | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
On July 30 2007 03:44 Jayson X wrote: Not dominance, but another starleague title for boxer would be awesome from start to finish. Just imagine a bo5 final, 5th game and boxer pulls out a legendary micro stunt and wins the set. Pow! Everyone screams, cries, faints, the emperor pushs his fist up in the air and somehow all girls in the first row get pregnant. Lol that cracked me up :p I'm pretty sure that is also what happens with all present women when Mantoss enters the room. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
or u could just explain :D:D:D lololol then ican learn how to fight protoss on iccup -.- | ||
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vhallee
899 Posts
On July 29 2007 06:10 1tym wrote: No one had impressed the fans like Boxer did, No other gamer had the popularity he had and no other gamer excited the audiences like he did. Starcraft owes a lot to Boxer as he really contributed to the scene more than anyone else did, as he attracted countless audiences, he has shown that same sort of excitement that can be felt at watching sport can be experienced watching StarCraft match... well the list goes on and on boxer redefined starcraft, his era meant GLORY, but oov was just brute force, pure ownage. so boxer is the pick for the coolest reign and oov gets the best reign from the stats point of view. | ||
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