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Canada2480 Posts
Hi all,
I've only been watching bigger tournaments in the last 3 years and I'd like to pick the brains of community members who are following daily streams and other tournaments more closely.
It seems like ZvT has changed a lot in the past 3-4 months and recently Zergs are doing quite well even, after struggling for years. Here are my questions
1) Why did 5 Rax +1 quit completely dominating the matchup?
I'm aware that Flash mentionned that he was feeling like zergs were adapting to the build and that is part of the reason he developped 1-1-1 in the last year (that and 1-1-1 being easier on the hands is the extend of my knowledge). Even now that 1-1-1 seems to have fallen out of fashion, players going 5 rax +1 don't seem to be having as much success with it as they used to. My question is: What exactly was the adaptation that zerg players brought to the table against the build? I notice that when Terrans go out on the map to hunt the third they get crunched by mutaling quite often nowadays. Did zergs find some build order refinements that beat that timing? What happened exactly?
2) Why did Terrans abruptly stop to mech switch
Mech switch dominated the matchup for a good 5 years span (if not more) is my impression but it seems like in between 2 ASLs every Terran went back to doing SK terran (with BCs). What brought about such a sudden change? I figure this has to do with terrans not being able to dominate the midgame as much as they used to with 5 rax +1 so maybe the answer to the first question answers this one too.
3) What's up with the BCs
I don't really get the BC strat. I feel like the BCs are rarely very cost efficient, especially when considering you could be making vessels instead. I get that BCs don't require much APM to work with compared to vessels but can someone explain to me the strong case for building BCs?
Thank you everyone.
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2) Why did Terrans abruptly stop to mech switch
I believe Zergs started getting really good at abusing the slowness of mech switch. It takes good conditions to do, and I noticed a lot of zergs abusing that moment perfectly. I noticed zergs getting really good at multi-pronged drops/pushes. I believe 2h is also a great way to keep terran locked down, and kinda came back in favor when i noticed mech going away. I'm not sure if those are related but a trend i noticed. it seems unlikely to effect one another to me tho.
3) What's up with the BCs
BCs are good at many things. One, as you mentioned, they take 1 action to go do damage. This requires a billion commands for zerg to handle correctly. They soak scourge. Scourge are 75gas to build 2, but you need 6 to hit a +0 upgrade BC to kill it. Since BCs one shot them, you typically need more than 6 built. They cause Zerg to spend >225 gas which is zerg's biggest problem late game is spending gas efficiently.
Zergs have been handling this by using plague more on them, building hydras to counter, etc. It requires a lot of decision making as well as it guaranteed drains gas.
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Zergs just don't get their thirds as fast anymore to defend vs the m&m.
Terrans don't go mech switch much anymore because most maps that were used in the last 2 ASLs are not very good for it.
The point of the BC's is mainly to create a timing for the followup dropships by soaking up the scourges. They can also be cost efficient, if Zerg only deals with them in a half-assed way.
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I think Flash said that 1-1-1 is now a dead build. Soon Terrans will be back to some kind a modified +1 5 rax into mech. I guarantee!
Most of the recent games are semi all-ins. So ugly... 
You just throw BCs to Z and let him deal with them while you are roaming elsewhere.
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I feel like the +1 5rax stopped being as dominant because Terrans aren't doing the mech switch. This is partially because the maps haven't always been good for fortifying a corner main. Otherwise, I think it's a completely legit way to play and more Terrans should do it. One problem with it is that it can drag the game out to 30-40 minutes, which can be very taxing. Lee Young Ho probably stopped doing it because his wrists are in bad shape, and practicing hundreds of 30+ minute games made him want to do something less time-consuming. Generally speaking, when Flash switches strategies, other Terrans tend to follow suit.
As for the battlecruiser thing, I'm not sure I understand it completely, but if you look at the cost values, we see this:
Scourge - 75 gas
Battlecruiser - 300 gas
It will take at least 5 scourge to kill a battlecruiser. That will come out to 375 gas spent for the Zerg player versus 300 for the Terran player. Additionally, battlecruisers can kill scourge with a single shot, which means that it may take 6 scourge for a cost of 450 gas. To deal with just two battlecruisers will require the Zerg to make 12 scourge. As the number of battlecruisers increases, the effectiveness of the scourge goes down dramatically. This allows the Terran to do three things: use the battlecruisers to deal damage to the Zerg, force the Zerg to utilize a lot of larvae that could be used to make ground units, and force the Zerg to spend a lot of gas on scourge instead of defilers, ultralisks, or lurkers.
Often times, the Zerg player will not have air units upgraded, or have hydralisk upgrades, which can make battlecruisers difficult to deal with using a Zerg that has tooled their infrastructure to fight defensively against a large and fairly mobile Terran ground army.
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On December 18 2018 07:02 ninazerg wrote:
I feel like the +1 5rax stopped being as dominant because Terrans aren't doing the mech switch. This is partially because the maps haven't always been good for fortifying a corner main. Otherwise, I think it's a completely legit way to play and more Terrans should do it. One problem with it is that it can drag the game out to 30-40 minutes, which can be very taxing. Lee Young Ho probably stopped doing it because his wrists are in bad shape, and practicing hundreds of 30+ minute games made him want to do something less time-consuming. Generally speaking, when Flash switches strategies, other Terrans tend to follow suit.
As for the battlecruiser thing, I'm not sure I understand it completely, but if you look at the cost values, we see this:
Scourge - 75 gas
Battlecruiser - 300 gas
It will take at least 5 scourge to kill a battlecruiser. That will come out to 375 gas spent for the Zerg player versus 300 for the Terran player. Additionally, battlecruisers can kill scourge with a single shot, which means that it may take 6 scourge for a cost of 450 gas. To deal with just two battlecruisers will require the Zerg to make 12 scourge. As the number of battlecruisers increases, the effectiveness of the scourge goes down dramatically. This allows the Terran to do three things: use the battlecruisers to deal damage to the Zerg, force the Zerg to utilize a lot of larvae that could be used to make ground units, and force the Zerg to spend a lot of gas on scourge instead of defilers, ultralisks, or lurkers.
Often times, the Zerg player will not have air units upgraded, or have hydralisk upgrades, which can make battlecruisers difficult to deal with using a Zerg that has tooled their infrastructure to fight defensively against a large and fairly mobile Terran ground army.
I think it would cost 225 gas for zerg since you can get 2 for 75 gas. But even still, BCs are good because Zerg needs gas at the mid-late game stage of the game more than terran imo. Along with it's other uses, it's kind of like a gas dump that forces zerg to also dump gas.
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On December 18 2018 07:01 Me_ToKa wrote:I think Flash said that 1-1-1 is now a dead build. Soon Terrans will be back to some kind a modified +1 5 rax into mech. I guarantee! Most of the recent games are semi all-ins. So ugly... You just throw BCs to Z and let him deal with them while you are roaming elsewhere.
Did he really? I guess that means after playing/studying his games his EffOrt he decided there was no way he felt with to adequately deal with all of zergs aggressive options.
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4 rax 2 starport is the future
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 18 2018 07:01 Me_ToKa wrote:I think Flash said that 1-1-1 is now a dead build. Soon Terrans will be back to some kind a modified +1 5 rax into mech. I guarantee! Most of the recent games are semi all-ins. So ugly... You just throw BCs to Z and let him deal with them while you are roaming elsewhere.
do you have a link for this?
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On December 18 2018 07:37 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2018 07:01 Me_ToKa wrote:I think Flash said that 1-1-1 is now a dead build. Soon Terrans will be back to some kind a modified +1 5 rax into mech. I guarantee! Most of the recent games are semi all-ins. So ugly... You just throw BCs to Z and let him deal with them while you are roaming elsewhere. Did he really? I guess that means after playing/studying his games his EffOrt he decided there was no way he felt with to adequately deal with all of zergs aggressive options.
I mean, it's not like Effort did something new, one ling all-in and one hydra bust were the successful ones (2 hatch defiler was against bio)
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On December 18 2018 05:48 swanized wrote:
Hi all,
I've only been watching bigger tournaments in the last 3 years and I'd like to pick the brains of community members who are following daily streams and other tournaments more closely.
It seems like ZvT has changed a lot in the past 3-4 months and recently Zergs are doing quite well even, after struggling for years. Here are my questions
1) Why did 5 Rax +1 quit completely dominating the matchup?
I'm aware that Flash mentionned that he was feeling like zergs were adapting to the build and that is part of the reason he developped 1-1-1 in the last year (that and 1-1-1 being easier on the hands is the extend of my knowledge). Even now that 1-1-1 seems to have fallen out of fashion, players going 5 rax +1 don't seem to be having as much success with it as they used to. My question is: What exactly was the adaptation that zerg players brought to the table against the build? I notice that when Terrans go out on the map to hunt the third they get crunched by mutaling quite often nowadays. Did zergs find some build order refinements that beat that timing? What happened exactly?
2) Why did Terrans abruptly stop to mech switch
Mech switch dominated the matchup for a good 5 years span (if not more) is my impression but it seems like in between 2 ASLs every Terran went back to doing SK terran (with BCs). What brought about such a sudden change? I figure this has to do with terrans not being able to dominate the midgame as much as they used to with 5 rax +1 so maybe the answer to the first question answers this one too.
3) What's up with the BCs
I don't really get the BC strat. I feel like the BCs are rarely very cost efficient, especially when considering you could be making vessels instead. I get that BCs don't require much APM to work with compared to vessels but can someone explain to me the strong case for building BCs?
Thank you everyone.
1) Zergs simply got better at dealing with 5 rax +1 after practicing for so long. At first you could tell Zerg didn't really know what to do and just lose their third almost always. But the top Zergs started to figure it out (see Soulkey vs Sharp game 5 recently) and it just wasn't as effective anymore.
2) Mech switch was partly popular because alot of games were played on FS/CB or similar maps which allowed for relatively easy mech switches. Then again Zergs started figuring out and changes to the map pool caused mech to go out of style.
3) It's a great resource dump + harass strategy if the Terran has alot of bases. It's nearly impossible to control a max bio + vessel army anyway so leaving some supply in BCs can be a great harass strategy. Zerg needs a ton of scourge/spore/plague/hydra/muta to deal with it. It is also an excellent buffer for dropships to follow behind.
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On December 18 2018 10:51 Dante08 wrote:
2) Mech switch was partly popular because alot of games were played on FS/CB or similar maps which allowed for relatively easy mech switches. Then again Zergs started figuring out and changes to the map pool caused mech to go out of style.
you shouldn't look at the ksl2 finals to make this false assumption. sharp hardly ever go for mech in tvz, its just not his style. mech is still the best way to handle lategame tvz, sk just doesnt cut it if you let the zerg comfortably secure his 4th and 5th and amove his ling/ultra/defilers with impunity
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Yesterday I saw EffOrt doing something I'd never seen before. He's known for early burrow, but what he did was use it defensively against 1-1-1 early Wraith burrowing the attacked drones one by one as they were being hit. The result was 0 dead drones in time for mutas to come out. Very interesting.
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TLADT24920 Posts
^ It's not that different from turning drones into colonies then canceling once wraith leaves, and putting them back to mining. Having burrow also helps with erasers later on.
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On December 18 2018 12:51 BigFan wrote:
^ It's not that different from turning drones into colonies then canceling once wraith leaves, and putting them back to mining. Having burrow also helps with erasers later on.
Are you sure? In my experience, making colonies is very cumbersome at that speed. You need a large free rectangular space between minerals, base and in between other drones and you're not exactly rich at that time in the game. Burrowing is clicking drone and pressing B, works every time.
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2) regarding the mech switch, I believe it still has a lot of viability depending on the maps. I noticed a lot of zergs couldn't and still can't figure it out - mostly B-grade zergs like Shine, modesty, 815.
The only reason why it fell out of favour is because 1-1-1 was the new meta that is advantageous and playable on a lot of maps.
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On December 18 2018 13:28 iCCup.Trent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2018 12:51 BigFan wrote:
^ It's not that different from turning drones into colonies then canceling once wraith leaves, and putting them back to mining. Having burrow also helps with erasers later on. Are you sure? In my experience, making colonies is very cumbersome at that speed. You need a large free rectangular space between minerals, base and in between other drones and you're not exactly rich at that time in the game. Burrowing is clicking drone and pressing B, works every time.
I too belive burrow makes muchmore sense than the colony trick when you are actually playing and doing it. go effort
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about scourge and BC: I think making a BC and holding it behind z mineral line outside spore range in late game is very very cost effective. It's about gas, apm and larva.
As some said, to kill 1 bc need 6 scourge land, right? (not sure tho) +1 that BC kill = 7 scourge
Z needs 300 gas to kill 1 BC if no scourge kamikaze alone before it.
Why think trading 300x300 gas at best is even trade? It's not a mirror match, gas value ratio is definitely not 1-1 for each party here. I think that trade is very good for Terran.
Also z needs 4 larvas if micro correct and lose 0 drones wich is very very unlikely, If a BC manage to kill 4 drones somehow that is 8 larva for one bc. then 3 bc => 24 larva.
Also the apm trade: drone transfer, scorge making and micro, etc vs BC makin, sending and mb holdig
BC can be very hardcore to deal with in the hands of someone like Light, add matrix def, and dropships to all above and they are such a power move.
thats why we see BC sitting forever at progame level zerg bases. they take a lot tp be dealt with
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On December 18 2018 10:59 ggsimida wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2018 10:51 Dante08 wrote:
2) Mech switch was partly popular because alot of games were played on FS/CB or similar maps which allowed for relatively easy mech switches. Then again Zergs started figuring out and changes to the map pool caused mech to go out of style.
you shouldn't look at the ksl2 finals to make this false assumption. sharp hardly ever go for mech in tvz, its just not his style. mech is still the best way to handle lategame tvz, sk just doesnt cut it if you let the zerg comfortably secure his 4th and 5th and amove his ling/ultra/defilers with impunity
I'm not, I quoted that game to highlight how Zergs deal with 5 rax +1 nowadays. Yes mech is still the best way to handle lategame TvZ but as I mentioned zergs like Soulkey Effort Larva have figured out how to deal with it more effectively and not let Terran get the other main up easily. It's still used in some cases but there's a reason why you don't see Terrans doing it much anymore. Coupled with the fact that there are alot more 2-3 player maps recently which don't allow you to spilt the map easily.
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EPT
