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Battle.net Ladder Rants

Forum Index > BW General
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Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-13 09:29:34
December 12 2006 14:03 GMT
#1
News: WCG Zone? by Ashur
http://www.bwprogrammers.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28

The Big Picture by Entropy
http://star-fire.ca/2006/12/09/the-big-picture/#respond
+ Show Spoiler +
The Big Picture: Starcraft, Battle.net, online ladders, WGTour & the cheating culture

This is a follow up on my initial rant “Battle.net & its current state" written here at Star-Fire.ca, BackFire.

Blizzard wants to protect WoW, and rightly so since they are earning a lot of money from it that by comparison pales anything StarCraft is making for them now. They are "afraid" of enhancing their protocol to adapt a ladder system. Why? Well here is why. Coders use a term "packet sniffing", which means essentially a savvy nasty-nasty can "catch" data transmissions, in hex code. And he can learn from it. Then from his computer on a certain port he can send a specific code to be able to cheat. So Blizzard has modified their code to protect themselves and today they can even track down almost anything now that messes with their ports. I have a strong hunch that this might have something to do with the current situation of our ladder.

Now WGT, has the technology to host a ladder and this means Blizzard will have to give them some kind of access through which WGT programs can "detect" who has won or lost a game if they want to do away with the bots and replays etc.. StarCraft and other Blizzard games are on different ports but same servers, the fact that this might happen means this, a risk that brings them no monetary benefit and a risk to their largest investment, their other games, including WoW. They are just not quite ready for this at present. Plus even if games were on different servers, what one may learn on one server can be applied to the other WarCraft, Diablo, etc.)

Still it is apparent that they are willing and are of course exploring the idea of out-sourcing their ladder, and not necessarily to one partner alone. Another point to make is that they have tried in the past several times parallel ladders and none are here surviving today. Remember KBK? It was a ladder/tournament that ran in Battle.net independently from their own. Remember WCG USA online? Hacker & abuse fest. I wonder if the same thing happened at WCG online Korea, (that used the same anti-hack running today at WCG Zone)? Point is the few times they have allowed outsiders to run a ladder at battle.net, it has not worked out any better than theirs.

And so WGT waits, and waits, for green signal from Blizzard. The rabble at WGTour is of course is pissed at Blizzard but powerless in the issue. They have posted publicly this too. They can't out right go say it is Blizzards fault because it can affect their relationship. Unfortunately they have poor control when it comes to their own staff, and already you can hear some of them whining publicly even in Blizzards own forums. To top all matters there are some that already have found a way to hack WGTour launcher. A fan based ladder is a double edge sword for us and Blizzard. Why? It is run by fans not professionals. Even PGTour in its glory days was not perfect and cases of staff abuse did occur; and look at what finally led to its demise. That they were dealt with is not enough when it comes to a ladder associated to Battle.net officially. There has to be zero staff monkey business at least when it comes to battle.net's server security.

I guess this is why they have trusted their corporate partner, ICM & Samsung, with WCG Zone and not the community efforts. A trust that has so far led nowhere; at least from our perspective. Despite their prizes, try and find a game in WCG Zone and you will see what I mean; (or read [url="http://www.bwprogrammers.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28"]Ashur's rant to realize Blizzard might just had to do the job themselves, if they want it done right. Unfortunately we all know how willing they are in this regard: Zero, Zip, proved by over 6 years of a failed ladder, their own). Do we have a hope?

[image loading]


So will there be another ladder? Every time you clicked on the Ladder option in Battle.net has not gone unnoticed. Blizzard has already measured the real demand for a ladder, in absolute numbers not the passion of a few. They know exactly were we stand, and how many of us are still around; which outside Korea, is a dwindling number, insignificant when compared to WoW users. If they had any doubts their tournament Sandlot gave them an even clearer picture. If they move a finger, it is out of loyalty to their fans. We want a ladder but blaming Blizzard for wrong doing that comes from within our own community is naive. We can of course ask again and again for our ladder back, a functional well run ladder. Is that so much to ask?

Has Blizzard support been perfect? No, but at least far better than most games out there. Blaming them for not trying harder, given their current resources is nevertheless legitimate. Are they really not trying though? After all they have cleaned the house up with a long series of patches but that still does not hide the fact that for over 6 years we have had no ladder at battle.net. The latest patch was indeed a major one and it finally did limit strongly the rampant piracy that has been going on for years. It also put an end to many assorted hacks, with the exception of map hacking which seems to be a problem with no solution. And yet still, no ladder. This reason enough to suspect they are not trying as hard and moving far to slow for the wish of the StarCraft fan. Why? Six years is a death sentence to any other game. How much longer must South Korea carry the longevity of our game on their shoulders alone?
And yet I still find myself asking, why would they, they put their energy elsewhere and it has rewarded them with success like never before. Are we truly doomed? We will find out sooner or later, for all we know they could be already developing a StarCraft series sequel; or so say the idle voices of gossip by a few who have spied beyond the secure doors of their development section. Making thus all my above comments the pointless gibberish it probably is. It will not take away the fun I had writing it.

We are after all our worst enemies. If some in our community would not be constantly making hacks or cracking anti-hacks to push their own anti-hacks and hacks, and if there was not an enormous demand for people wanting to cheat, we would still have a ladder and a much better gaming experience. It is in Blizzards own interest to keep us honest, but it is not their responsibility. For StarCraft to survive, we all know, a fair gaming environment is paramount. The solution is to include social engineering too, not only technical; i.e. both. All sports today are kept clean today like this. Any future ladder needs to address the main issues that foster and promote cheating: lack of accountability.

[image loading]


For a real ladder, one needs accountability. For this to happen we need real ID registrations. Once we are accountable, cheating though still happens, drops to tolerable levels. The mass smurfing and multiple accounts must end if we are to have a fighting chance. This is how it is in any competitive sport. You can’t show up to the competition with 10 different names and 10 different flags every time you don’t like your outcome. Blizzard and other online ladders have always avoided this issue due to the bureaucratic hassle it entails and also the different national legislations when it comes to the under aged and their ID information sharing. Still, things can be as they are with any other sport, parental consent for those wishing to participate or doors closed. A league with rules, registration with real ID and serious StarCraft e-Sports outside Korea could become a reality. An organized sport increases its value tenfold, for everyone: the fans, the competitors, the corporate world and the game developers. Any doubt? Look at South Korea.

They way things are looking if Blizzard prolongs the status quo, for better or for worse, we will have many small private ladders and an increasing number of many small private servers, all with sub par cheating control and all leading to an ever increasing fragmentation of the original Battle.net gaming community. Much of this has already been happening. This scenario puts us very far of ever achieving a single ladder dream like it once was and even further from an organized international online e-Sport environment for StarCraft. Maybe they are just waiting for us to realize there is an alternative, WCG zone, albeit far from perfect and empty, while they prepare other ladder environments. Maybe they just want us to quit whining and start playing WoW, and start paying for playing. Or maybe in a couple of years, they give us everything ever wanted. Such is the StarCraft fan, spoiled rotten to the core.


____________________________________________________________________________________

Post dedicated to DecentAngel who fed the seed in me to write it, gave me game me his valuable insight and allowed me to borrow some of his words.
[/url][/b]

[image loading]


I will copy/paste mine soon here as a spoiler, and will add ashur's too in another spoiler if he agrees, so that this tl.net thread stands alone when it becomes an old thread (i.e second page).

Enjoy the reading/Pics.
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-12 14:14:39
December 12 2006 14:14 GMT
#2
i just read the entropy one - it's very, very well written, definitely a recommended read

[slightly off-topic]
the idea of real id and registration seems really interesting, and the barriers surrounding it are a lot easier to surmount compared to the other ones. how many people would be willing to do it? the issue of fans' responsibilities to not abuse would then be enforced by the loss of anonymity and less chances to get away.

in counter-strike and cal, player names and their steamids are always listed on the page. of course there are still hackers but in official matches, a lot less. i think it's an overall brilliant idea, though i may be just grabbing onto the first reasonable thing that is presented out of hope.
[/slightly on-topic]

anyways, nice thread =)
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
[GiTM]-Ace
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4935 Posts
December 12 2006 14:46 GMT
#3
nice read i really think blizzard gave up on us. I mean the game is 10 years old we cant really blame them.
I may not be the best player right now but I think I can beat any 'best' players. I'll beat all the best players and become the best player. Watch me. - Jju
CoralReefer
Profile Joined June 2004
Canada2069 Posts
December 12 2006 15:03 GMT
#4
about time for starcraft 2!
And this hot potato has vanished into thin air.
Spectacular
Profile Joined June 2006
Canada312 Posts
December 12 2006 15:11 GMT
#5
We really need to post that on blizzard.com forums, or make blizzard admins aware of this, cuz what Entropy just wrote is 100% true and it's a very nice positive idea.
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
December 12 2006 15:20 GMT
#6
by the way, is the cal league thing viable at all?

As the new Head of Starcraft Broodwars I felt it would be best to restart season 2. There were a number or inactive teams and players, so the best way to decipher who wanted to play and who did not, was to delete everyone and start fresh. Due to the holidays coming up and I know everyone is busy so the next season will not start until January.

The rosters are unlocked for joining and creating teams. If you do not intend on playing every week please do not register. Inactive teams are one of the biggest problems we have in this division. It is going to take everyone’s cooperation to make this a successful division. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.


Posted by Shawn Nantais on Sun, Dec 3, 06 at 14:50
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
itzMorglum
Profile Joined October 2004
Poland171 Posts
December 12 2006 17:34 GMT
#7
I want to comment few things in your rant:

Now WGT, has the technology to host a ladder and this means Blizzard will have to give them some kind of access through which WGT programs can “detect” who has won or lost a game if they want to do away with the bots and replays etc.. StarCraft and other Blizzard games are on different ports but same servers, the fact that this might happen means this, a risk that brings them no monetary benefit and a risk to their largest investment, their other games, including WoW. They are just not quite ready for this at present. Plus even if games were on different servers, what one may learn on one server can be applied to the other WarCraft, Diablo, etc.)

You still have no idea how WGT&Blizz works - guessing is how I would call this part of your rant.


You could not stop yourself right?
"To top all matters there are some that already have found a way to hack WGTour launcher. A fan based ladder is a double edge sword for us and Blizzard. Why? It is run by fans not professionals."

You on the other hand are a professional?

Finally matter of ID you bring in this rant - I don't see reason why one would be forced to give all details when playing for fun, I agree for tournaments you must give your real ID, but from what I know most well organized tournaments do so.

My generall opinion about "blizz rants" is they are pointless - blizz will do whatever he wants and whatever time it takes anyway. I am glad that there are some ppl who still care and acctualy do something for this game (this includes programmers and several admins from different sites). You seem to me, Entropy, as sort of journalist(atm) who wants to bring attention to problem, so every1 says hmm yeah there is one acctualy, but things you write as possible solution to this problem are sooo not probable to happen... do you feel like your words will change anything? Wow customers from all over the world whine on blizz and still rarely get listened, I doubt SC fans will have bettter position here.

SC is game I love for a long long time now, I still hope there are ppl (not blizz workers) who will stay as long as needed to bring some better things for us - players.
God created angels to steal loneliness from males, but I have found my angel and she stole my loneliness 4ever
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7228 Posts
December 12 2006 18:53 GMT
#8
On December 12 2006 23:46 [GiTM]-Ace wrote:
nice read i really think blizzard gave up on us. I mean the game is 10 years old we cant really blame them.


which is bullshit because they shouldnt have started a ladder then.

They shouldve left WGT alone and maybe WGT wouldve been up and running long ago how it was before which is better than nothing.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
December 12 2006 18:56 GMT
#9
Why the fuck did they choose WGT instead of PGT?
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
to miss the mark
Profile Joined November 2005
Bosnia-Herzegovina1381 Posts
December 12 2006 19:19 GMT
#10
On December 13 2006 03:56 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Why the fuck did they choose WGT instead of PGT?


WGT was legal, PGT wasn't.
Act happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love, and do what you will.
Fen
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Australia1848 Posts
December 12 2006 19:52 GMT
#11
I wonder how hard it would be for blizz to take the warcraft 3 ladder system and just mod it to work for starcraft?

It wouldnt stop the cheating, but if implemented it would be awsome.
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-12 22:42:07
December 12 2006 22:33 GMT
#12
"My general opinion about "blizz rants" is they are pointless"

# itzMorglum it is a "rant" by "fan", you give me far too much importance. I agree. I even say so in the rant what deep down I thought of my rant. But rants do have a purpose. They entertain and they are cathartic. They are part of any gaming community. Note too that by professional I meant people exclusively dedicated to that activity on a salary, i.e. it should not be taken as an offense since everyone at wgtour are volunteers, unless of course I am wrong, and volunteers are much harder to keep in the discipline that is need sometimes for such ventures. I added a sentence to the first paragraph.
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-12 22:49:14
December 12 2006 22:43 GMT
#13
Hey... I havn't played broodwar for a couple of months (about 7, so more than a couple), and the PGT website is down. I remember the website was hacked a while back, but I thought the player profiles were deleted, and the ladder was still working.

Could somebody tell me whats up?

(tried searching, but either it's not working again or my AOL 4.0 [beat that punks!] is messing both of them up)
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7228 Posts
December 12 2006 23:23 GMT
#14
I think the what needs to be answered here, is would WGT be up RIGHT NOW if it never tried to work something out with blizzard. Because if it WOULD wed be better off had blizzard not meddled with it
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Dantak
Profile Joined January 2006
Czech Republic648 Posts
December 13 2006 01:05 GMT
#15
On December 13 2006 07:43 -_- wrote:
Hey... I havn't played broodwar for a couple of months (about 7, so more than a couple), and the PGT website is down. I remember the website was hacked a while back, but I thought the player profiles were deleted, and the ladder was still working.

Could somebody tell me whats up?

(tried searching, but either it's not working again or my AOL 4.0 [beat that punks!] is messing both of them up)


Pat had it enough so he decided to stop working for community and dissaperaed from surface leaving PGT down
"Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery." - f33red k0r34n z3rg
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7228 Posts
December 13 2006 03:36 GMT
#16
On December 13 2006 10:05 PetrBlaha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2006 07:43 -_- wrote:
Hey... I havn't played broodwar for a couple of months (about 7, so more than a couple), and the PGT website is down. I remember the website was hacked a while back, but I thought the player profiles were deleted, and the ladder was still working.

Could somebody tell me whats up?

(tried searching, but either it's not working again or my AOL 4.0 [beat that punks!] is messing both of them up)


Pat had it enough so he decided to stop working for community and dissaperaed from surface leaving PGT down


I have no problem with pat not wanting to deal with shit and put work back into to put it up again but from what can be gathered he didnt let people take over (at least relatively early after it was taken down) Thats one thing I dont like.

He basically lost and took his ball and went home.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Dendra
Profile Joined July 2006
Croatia801 Posts
December 13 2006 03:51 GMT
#17
On December 13 2006 00:03 CoralReefer wrote:
about time for starcraft 2!

ok perhaps starcraft:brood war and starcraft crap 3D for noobs
but never sc2-it would kill the game-bw is not just a pc game-ever wondered why ppl start playing wc3 and then after 4months or so get bored?they pretty much understand the whole game,etc. while bw takes time,even after 4years you can still be a noob.
also did you notice the differance between bw and other rts? does anyone unit in bw have written below it's name "good vs this,good vs that,etc."....no
does wc3 have such units?-yes,they have small descriptions what is used for what,etc. also many games have rules-like "pikeman-counter to horseman" it does not say "pikeman-good vs archers" while in bw some units can kill dozens of other units or die to just 1unit depending on the skills of the player-example,lurkers are good vs mm-yeeee,but wtf when players go sk terran? how is it possible that mm kill something that is supposed to be good vs them-you don't c stuff like that in other games-even in wc3 the "uber cool" game ppl follow strict rules,they don't have the same freedom as in bw.

btw sry i went a bit off topic perhaps :D
Believing isnt seeing.Seeing is believing,but may not be reality.
BuGzlToOnl
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5918 Posts
December 13 2006 04:52 GMT
#18
Good Read, I really enjoyed it.

The only major problem like stated in the articles is the Icon problem, I don't think that it is a bug or anything. You must follow the instructions to get your Icon I got mine right away I didn't even have to wait the 15 minutes. You just have to follow the INSTRUCTIONS, but I know that people are lazy and so the "Icon problem" occurs.

The number in players can easily be fixed by everyone. By just joining, but I suppose that people don't want to join a server that has 10 players at best. All we need is 2 people invite 2 people ect... and we would have a semi decent ladder.

In my opinion its simple, people are just lazy or impatient.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
December 13 2006 04:54 GMT
#19
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7228 Posts
December 13 2006 05:02 GMT
#20
On December 13 2006 13:54 -_- wrote:
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?


no there isnt, From what im gathering they cant start a new season because of blizzard(due to the fact they are with blizzard on doing a new ladder or whatever) There are korean ladders, but not many people play them (except during peak korean hours I guess, but even then I find it hard to find games because I speak english
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
BuGzlToOnl
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5918 Posts
December 13 2006 05:07 GMT
#21
On December 13 2006 13:54 -_- wrote:
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=47337

If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
December 13 2006 05:18 GMT
#22
On December 13 2006 14:07 BuGzlToOnl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2006 13:54 -_- wrote:
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=47337



Thanks a bunch. Just installed starcraft again. Woo!
Pika Chu
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Romania2510 Posts
December 13 2006 05:31 GMT
#23
On December 13 2006 13:54 -_- wrote:
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?


No it is not.
But imo before people whine about no ladder, they should check out the actual ladder and even if they are under the standards of wgt/pgt play it. WCG Zone can be fine if more people were in it.
Abyss is not that bad either.
They first ignore you. After they laugh at you. Next they will fight you. In the end you will win.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7228 Posts
December 13 2006 06:26 GMT
#24
On December 13 2006 14:31 Pika Chu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2006 13:54 -_- wrote:
Hmmm. Is there a WGT season going on now? Where do people play ladder now?


No it is not.
But imo before people whine about no ladder, they should check out the actual ladder and even if they are under the standards of wgt/pgt play it. WCG Zone can be fine if more people were in it.
Abyss is not that bad either.



wcgzone is a joke becuase no one plays it, You have people who play money maps, god knows how they got their id's and tons of people who fucking refuse to play. Not to mention its on USEAST


How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
GaG[SharKy]
Profile Joined November 2006
New Zealand221 Posts
December 13 2006 06:54 GMT
#25
just out of curiosity, i wonder what blizzard is actually doing for the sc community.?!?! or as someone mentioned have they given up?
Pressure
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
7326 Posts
December 13 2006 07:34 GMT
#26
Ladder = MORE SALESSSS
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
December 13 2006 07:43 GMT
#27
My rant is that whenever I accidentally click Ladder on battle.net, it minimizes my BW and fires up my browser to redirect me to their website. Goddammit!
Moonlight Shadow
PaeZ
Profile Joined April 2005
Mexico1627 Posts
December 13 2006 07:50 GMT
#28
On December 13 2006 16:43 useless wrote:
My rant is that whenever I accidentally click Ladder on battle.net, it minimizes my BW and fires up my browser to redirect me to their website. Goddammit!


i share your suffering, if pisses me off !!!!
Nal_CrayOn
Profile Joined December 2004
600 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-13 12:35:12
December 13 2006 12:34 GMT
#29
The best article I ever read about the blizzard (not in curse way :D)
About the hosting wcgzone on "east" server....explains so much easy work for blizzard admins. If they host on "west", there will be 1000000000000000000000 Korean, which they cannot control majority people at all unlikely pgtour.
This just proved how much hard work pgtour had.
#1 Pharmacist zerg~ =]
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-12-14 03:52:04
December 13 2006 13:21 GMT
#30
This just proved how much hard work PGTour had.

<3 crayon, you saw one of the subliminal messages of the rant, which though I would like to say was conscious on my part, but it was not. Funny how the mind works. Thanks.
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
Normal
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