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BW General Discussion - Page 356

Forum Index > BW General
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LG)Sabbath
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Argentina3024 Posts
July 28 2020 14:25 GMT
#7101
https://www.twitch.tv/t1esports

boxer has been streaming bw for like 3k viewers on twitch, fun games, just fooling around basically
https://www.twitch.tv/argsabbath/
TaLIfy
Profile Joined July 2020
17 Posts
July 28 2020 15:47 GMT
#7102
On July 27 2020 08:01 puppykiller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2020 03:02 TaLIfy wrote:
On July 25 2020 16:56 puppykiller wrote:
On July 25 2020 09:31 TaLIfy wrote:
On July 25 2020 09:11 Jealous wrote:
On July 25 2020 08:53 TaLIfy wrote:
Hi there.

I'm interested in discussing the BW story.

Is there any critical analysis of the BW story? I can't find any thru google and that's concerning to me. There's lot of analysis of SC2, but none for SC1.

I've reviewed SC1's story in the past and found things that I would consider plot contrivances and bad writing, but I wanted to know what other people thought.

Gaming magazines from that era would be at least surface level starting points. PC Gamer for example.

A lot of more contemporary works just compare it to SC2 and say that BW is better and SC2 sucks/is sexist/is bland because a, b, c, etc.


I don't have any copies of gaming magazines from that era. I don't think there was a lot of analysis of game stories back then either.

I see a lot of gamers saying that SC1 is the pinnacle of storytelling. After reviewing it myself, I do not agree with that assessment.

Let's try a thought experiment. Review the plot of SC1 and try to poke as many holes in it as you can. Want to?


I remember as a kid really likeing the BW storyline but when I played through it again as an adult I felt different. I guess I don't hate the story so much as a lot of the dialogue and "Blizzard tropes". I wouldn't say that it is the worst story but I don't understand why anyone would think that it's exemplery.


Me neither. I don’t hate the story in and of itself. I think the story is silly since it’s basically about how one girl becomes the zerg jesus. I can’t get invested in that.

Potentially Interesting political actors like the Confederate nations, zerg broods, protoss tribes, etc are all tossed aside in favor of interpersonal melodrama. I wanted to see the aliens invading terran space, and the terrans defending themselves from the aliens. Typical military science fiction stuff. I find Starcraft’s attempt at story to be wasted potential.

Again, the plot of SC1 is about how a psychotic twenty something woman becomes the messiah to a bunch of alien locusts that eat planets. That is a b-movie plot at best. How does a sane person come up with something like that? That doesn’t make sense for a devouring swarm to do. Can you imagine the flood, necromorphs, tyranids, etc doing anything like that? I understand the zerg need characters to make their POV compelling to a human player (as the DoW2 tyranid campaign was hella boring), but outright humanizing them destroys what makes them interesting in the first place.

Fans of scifi devouring swarms like the tyranids are fans because devouring swarms by nature are relentless, pitiless, merciless, unfeeling, etc. They’re monstrous, destructive, and utterly inhuman. They don’t engage in diplomacy or moralizing or revenge, they just eat you because you’re there! You play them because you want to indulge your id. Making their face/leader a psychotic succubus with daddy/boyfriend issues is absurd on its face.

However, fanboys will try to argue that this is the best story ever (it’s b-movie quality at best) and any suggestion that it isn’t perfect is evil heresy. It’s really frustrating. Talking to nostalgic fanboys is like bashing my head against cinderblocks.

“Kerry is a special snowflake! The plot totally makes sense! Blah blah blah.”

The weird thing is that the same people who put SC1 on an undeserved pedestal say that SC2 is the worst story ever. While SC2 is a bad story, that does not make SC1 a good story. That is not how critical analysis works.

If Blizzard ever makes a SC3 (or whatever other continuation, like an FPS, MOBA, RTT, mobile shovelware, etc), then I’m curious as to whether they’ll keep the zergs as peaceful space orcs... or reverse all of that development and make them the main villains like they were in SC1. All of the zerg lore besides Kerry’s forced hero role describes them as biological horrors that twist everything around them into a living nightmare.


There are a lot of different reasons many BW players prefer BW to Sc2. However, when it comes to the story in the respective single player campaigns, I would say that is perhaps one of the shallowest reasons one could have. I'm not sure where your finding this particular nostalgic crowd lurking. Most of my posting has been in the BW forum on tl and I would say this community it's completely rallied around the game's multiplayer. I don't think your gonna find a lot of people disagreeing with you that BW has a pretty average storyline here. Many of us haven't even ever played the single player. If I found someone here passionate about the BW single player and convinced it was top tier story writing, I would probably assume they were a total noob who had lost their way from the blizzard forums and didn't realize that they were no longer amongst Blizzard fanboys but Kespa/post Kespa Korean progamer fanboys.

That being said I agree with everything you have written up to this point bashing the storyline. I encourage you to bash it more, even though you may not find many here who have much of an opinion on it either way (since most of us consider the single player the least important part of this game).


I'm one of those weird people who prefers the singleplayer content in RTS games. I'm not a multiplayer kind of person.

On July 27 2020 16:07 whaski wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2020 03:02 TaLIfy wrote:
On July 25 2020 16:56 puppykiller wrote:
On July 25 2020 09:31 TaLIfy wrote:
On July 25 2020 09:11 Jealous wrote:
On July 25 2020 08:53 TaLIfy wrote:
Hi there.

I'm interested in discussing the BW story.

Is there any critical analysis of the BW story? I can't find any thru google and that's concerning to me. There's lot of analysis of SC2, but none for SC1.

I've reviewed SC1's story in the past and found things that I would consider plot contrivances and bad writing, but I wanted to know what other people thought.

Gaming magazines from that era would be at least surface level starting points. PC Gamer for example.

A lot of more contemporary works just compare it to SC2 and say that BW is better and SC2 sucks/is sexist/is bland because a, b, c, etc.


I don't have any copies of gaming magazines from that era. I don't think there was a lot of analysis of game stories back then either.

I see a lot of gamers saying that SC1 is the pinnacle of storytelling. After reviewing it myself, I do not agree with that assessment.

Let's try a thought experiment. Review the plot of SC1 and try to poke as many holes in it as you can. Want to?


I remember as a kid really likeing the BW storyline but when I played through it again as an adult I felt different. I guess I don't hate the story so much as a lot of the dialogue and "Blizzard tropes". I wouldn't say that it is the worst story but I don't understand why anyone would think that it's exemplery.


Me neither. I don’t hate the story in and of itself. I think the story is silly since it’s basically about how one girl becomes the zerg jesus. I can’t get invested in that.

Potentially Interesting political actors like the Confederate nations, zerg broods, protoss tribes, etc are all tossed aside in favor of interpersonal melodrama. I wanted to see the aliens invading terran space, and the terrans defending themselves from the aliens. Typical military science fiction stuff. I find Starcraft’s attempt at story to be wasted potential.

Again, the plot of SC1 is about how a psychotic twenty something woman becomes the messiah to a bunch of alien locusts that eat planets. That is a b-movie plot at best. How does a sane person come up with something like that? That doesn’t make sense for a devouring swarm to do. Can you imagine the flood, necromorphs, tyranids, etc doing anything like that? I understand the zerg need characters to make their POV compelling to a human player (as the DoW2 tyranid campaign was hella boring), but outright humanizing them destroys what makes them interesting in the first place.

Fans of scifi devouring swarms like the tyranids are fans because devouring swarms by nature are relentless, pitiless, merciless, unfeeling, etc. They’re monstrous, destructive, and utterly inhuman. They don’t engage in diplomacy or moralizing or revenge, they just eat you because you’re there! You play them because you want to indulge your id. Making their face/leader a psychotic succubus with daddy/boyfriend issues is absurd on its face.

However, fanboys will try to argue that this is the best story ever (it’s b-movie quality at best) and any suggestion that it isn’t perfect is evil heresy. It’s really frustrating. Talking to nostalgic fanboys is like bashing my head against cinderblocks.

“Kerry is a special snowflake! The plot totally makes sense! Blah blah blah.”

The weird thing is that the same people who put SC1 on an undeserved pedestal say that SC2 is the worst story ever. While SC2 is a bad story, that does not make SC1 a good story. That is not how critical analysis works.

If Blizzard ever makes a SC3 (or whatever other continuation, like an FPS, MOBA, RTT, mobile shovelware, etc), then I’m curious as to whether they’ll keep the zergs as peaceful space orcs... or reverse all of that development and make them the main villains like they were in SC1. All of the zerg lore besides Kerry’s forced hero role describes them as biological horrors that twist everything around them into a living nightmare.



Are we talking about SC1 or Broodwar? Because I am pretty sure that SC1 was more about Zerg and Protoss with their shared origins. Terrans kind of for mixed up in grand conflict with latent psipowers and such. Kerrigan and Raynor took over in Broodwar with the Mengsk and UED being the driving forces of the story. What you described regarding Raynor and Kerrigan sounds SC2 to me.


SC1 OG. When you stop to think about it, the plot is pretty silly and is full of missed opportunities.

The zerg invaded terran space to capture a twenty-something woman and wax poetic about how she's the messiah or whatever, despite her not noticeably contributing anything. What I would have preferred was seeing the zerg invasion of terran space from their POV, having the zerg culture explored, and seeing them capture all the psychics throughout the sector rather than one person.

The protoss have a civil war, but we never learn why they are fighting or given a satisfactory explanation for reconciliation. Like, at one point the protoss leader Tassadar surrenders because he is so horrified by the bloodshed and wants to stop it... then when you go rescue him by causing more bloodshed, he acts all cheerful about it rather than being horrified at you for causing the bloodshed he was explicitly trying to stop. Character consistency? What's that?

And don't even get me started at how absurd it was that, when the zerg were invading terran space, the terran storyline was about rebels fighting against the government when they clearly have more important things to worry about. I can understand making something like that a sideplot or its own campaign, but it's a huge waste to make it the only terran campaign we ever see in canon. You have an interstellar war setting, and that's the only story you can think up to introduce people to the lore?

Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1441 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-07-28 16:48:56
July 28 2020 16:22 GMT
#7103
On July 29 2020 00:47 TaLIfy wrote:

having the zerg culture explored

I doubt there's much to explore here...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I know that "culture" can be a much broader term than art or civilisation, but that ticked me off, lel

On July 29 2020 00:47 TaLIfy wrote:
And don't even get me started at how absurd it was that, when the zerg were invading terran space, the terran storyline was about rebels fighting against the government when they clearly have more important things to worry about. [...] You have an interstellar war setting, and that's the only story you can think up to introduce people to the lore?

Actually, sounds human, all too human...
TaLIfy
Profile Joined July 2020
17 Posts
July 28 2020 18:47 GMT
#7104
On July 29 2020 01:22 Highgamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2020 00:47 TaLIfy wrote:

having the zerg culture explored

I doubt there's much to explore here...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I know that "culture" can be a much broader term than art or civilisation, but that ticked me off, lel

Point taken.

What I mean is that the zerg were extremely alien compared to either the humans or the protoss. They were communistic, vicious, but also clearly intelligent and capable of introspection. The SC1 manual took pains to give them a history, organizations, characters, etc rather than leave them as mindless monsters. Rather than work with that, the writers tossed it away in favor of focusing entirely on a psychotic succubus with daddy/boyfriend issues.

That really ticks me off. I have personally seen long form stories written about Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar protagonists, who are evil beyond any human capacity. If we can write stories about that, then surely we can write stories about the zerg.

On July 29 2020 01:22 Highgamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2020 00:47 TaLIfy wrote:
And don't even get me started at how absurd it was that, when the zerg were invading terran space, the terran storyline was about rebels fighting against the government when they clearly have more important things to worry about. [...] You have an interstellar war setting, and that's the only story you can think up to introduce people to the lore?

Actually, sounds human, all too human...

Yes, it is. My point is that such a perspective is the only one we ever get. We never get to see the terrans defending themselves against the aliens or having to make hard decisions in order to survive the invasion. To add insult to injury, the invasion conveniently ends once Mengsk takes over... even though there's no non-contrived reason for the aliens to just stop. The zerg invaded to devour humanity, so why stop after capturing one woman? The protoss invaded to destroy the zerg, so why stop if the zerg aren't destroyed?
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8485 Posts
July 28 2020 21:57 GMT
#7105
My LB is lost again! Both semifinals wrong
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway746 Posts
July 29 2020 07:58 GMT
#7106
Anyone know if theres a place its easy to find phantom bgh games? Trying to get some started on europe but nobody joins. Its so fun
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1238 Posts
July 30 2020 14:57 GMT
#7107
https://sponbbang.com/

There's only one protoss( @nr 9) in the Top10.



Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway746 Posts
August 01 2020 07:05 GMT
#7108
Is there any english commentary of ASTL? If no, is there any way to view them in the right order? All I find is korean vods on youtube
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1441 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-01 07:54:42
August 01 2020 07:47 GMT
#7109
On August 01 2020 16:05 Timebon3s wrote:
Is there any english commentary of ASTL? If no, is there any way to view them in the right order? All I find is korean vods on youtube


Dunno about english commentary but I guess, no.

For korean vods, check this out: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/2020_AfreecaTV_StarCraft_Team_League_Season_1

For each match, next to where you can open the "Detailed Results", there is a little icon ([image loading]) where you're directed to the Afreeca-Vods.

On that occasion: Huge shoutout and thanks to the people who keep Liquidpedia up to date that way.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway746 Posts
August 01 2020 07:53 GMT
#7110
Thanks so much :D
Return
Profile Joined June 2005
Ivory Coast856 Posts
August 01 2020 13:55 GMT
#7111
On August 01 2020 16:05 Timebon3s wrote:
Is there any english commentary of ASTL? If no, is there any way to view them in the right order? All I find is korean vods on youtube


Eonzerg casted some of the early ones often with a guest. Him and seriosity will cast the final. Its on eonzergs afreeca(he uploaded them to Youtube but it got taken down)
Diiiscoo-oh, thats where the happy people go!
sntct
Profile Joined February 2018
100 Posts
August 01 2020 20:38 GMT
#7112
Can't say for sure, but it appears possible that (Z)Mondragon has opened, or is associated with a chiropractic firm: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw2rs0uJqzN0ZzfmfkQ03pQ

Anyone can confirm?
sntct
Profile Joined February 2018
100 Posts
August 01 2020 20:38 GMT
#7113
On August 01 2020 22:55 Return wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2020 16:05 Timebon3s wrote:
Is there any english commentary of ASTL? If no, is there any way to view them in the right order? All I find is korean vods on youtube


Eonzerg casted some of the early ones often with a guest. Him and seriosity will cast the final. Its on eonzergs afreeca(he uploaded them to Youtube but it got taken down)


Who is seriosity?
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands5177 Posts
August 01 2020 20:42 GMT
#7114
On August 02 2020 05:38 sntct wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2020 22:55 Return wrote:
On August 01 2020 16:05 Timebon3s wrote:
Is there any english commentary of ASTL? If no, is there any way to view them in the right order? All I find is korean vods on youtube


Eonzerg casted some of the early ones often with a guest. Him and seriosity will cast the final. Its on eonzergs afreeca(he uploaded them to Youtube but it got taken down)


Who is seriosity?

The guy casting NA Stier right now. See Live Events.
FBH #1!
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6990 Posts
August 01 2020 22:07 GMT
#7115
On August 02 2020 05:38 sntct wrote:
Can't say for sure, but it appears possible that (Z)Mondragon has opened, or is associated with a chiropractic firm: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw2rs0uJqzN0ZzfmfkQ03pQ

Anyone can confirm?

Pretty sure Mondragon is a Christopher from Germany, not a Dr. Brenda from USA
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 08:10:44
August 02 2020 08:05 GMT
#7116
Interesting little tidbit from Zero/Queen's newest KCM match vs. Flash on Pathfinder:

Looks like he is intentionally move-commanding his Mutalisk to stall out the Turret.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28704 Posts
August 02 2020 12:19 GMT
#7117
Oh. That's like the observer bug just against a finished turret. Wonder if spamming s would've worked to counter it.
Moderator
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
August 02 2020 13:57 GMT
#7118
Same bug/glitch.
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19150 Posts
August 02 2020 16:42 GMT
#7119
kwark made the montage

Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1441 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 17:37:40
August 02 2020 17:36 GMT
#7120
This is soothing, so human. Game drives you out of your right mind sometimes, and sometimes you're justly mad at stuff.

I love how he is eloquent and comic in his anger/frustration oftentimes and doesn't swear excessively.
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