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On March 04 2013 09:33 Gecko[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 09:06 Hier wrote:On March 04 2013 08:30 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 08:25 Hier wrote:On March 04 2013 08:21 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 08:20 Gecko[Xp] wrote:On March 04 2013 07:58 thezanursic wrote:
I can't link because I am on my phone, but in the MSL thread some of the players aren't represented correctly for instance Savior isn't listed on the medal count at all. That's a question best answered by itsjustatank: + Show Spoiler +
for the love of god, please post after me or this looks stupid
Those medals no longer exist Where did they go? Perhaps you should ask him where he threw them, along with the games and matches and the future of brood war. This is absolutely irrelevant. That medal count is simply a summary of the amount of first and second places a player has gotten, and that cannot change. KeSPA can do whatever they want with their history books, why are we erasing data instead of putting an asterisk next to it? Did someone forget to edit the OSL page? Luxury was removed for the same reason? This is a total mess. There is no erasing of data. He simply has no medal anymore, his win is not official anymore. We can't list something he does not have, right? The tournament pages itself appear to be correct - every win and every loss is listed, he is simply not the champion of that league anymore.
Can you provide a source on that, and what you said in your previous post? What was the exact wording? As far as I was aware KeSPA has confiscated all his awards for which he would have to get nominated (ie. something he did not clearly win). OGN is still brandishing his OSL win on their Wall of Fame, not exactly burning the books on him, as you have made it seem.
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Hong Kong9182 Posts
On March 04 2013 09:58 Hier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 09:33 Gecko[Xp] wrote:On March 04 2013 09:06 Hier wrote:On March 04 2013 08:30 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 08:25 Hier wrote:On March 04 2013 08:21 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 08:20 Gecko[Xp] wrote:On March 04 2013 07:58 thezanursic wrote:
I can't link because I am on my phone, but in the MSL thread some of the players aren't represented correctly for instance Savior isn't listed on the medal count at all. That's a question best answered by itsjustatank: + Show Spoiler +
for the love of god, please post after me or this looks stupid
Those medals no longer exist Where did they go? Perhaps you should ask him where he threw them, along with the games and matches and the future of brood war. This is absolutely irrelevant. That medal count is simply a summary of the amount of first and second places a player has gotten, and that cannot change. KeSPA can do whatever they want with their history books, why are we erasing data instead of putting an asterisk next to it? Did someone forget to edit the OSL page? Luxury was removed for the same reason? This is a total mess. There is no erasing of data. He simply has no medal anymore, his win is not official anymore. We can't list something he does not have, right? The tournament pages itself appear to be correct - every win and every loss is listed, he is simply not the champion of that league anymore. Can you provide a source on that, and what you said in your previous post? What was the exact wording? As far as I was aware KeSPA has confiscated all his awards for which he would have to get nominated (ie. something he did not clearly win). OGN is still brandishing his OSL win on their Wall of Fame, not exactly burning the books on him, as you have made it seem.
brandishing
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YJFHEZH.jpg)
(Photo: Carlton Beener)
brandishing
Absolutely no policy of "condemnation of memory" going on here. Clearly not. All of the other slots on that wall look just like that. Please educate yourself about the  Match Fixing Scandal before continuing with the attempts at constructing an apologetics for the matchfixing scum.
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I'm a fan of SaviOr's play and the presence he brought, but I do not support his match fixing, and I agree with itsjustatank.
You can check something similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tour_de_France_winners#By_year
Scroll down and you'll see the wins by Lance Armstrong have been vacated. Surely Wikipedia knows better than you.
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@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
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Hong Kong9182 Posts
On March 04 2013 11:14 Hier wrote:
@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
The link to Liquipedia was an open invitation to read it and the articles used as sources so that you can find the point of error in your line of thought. His name happens to still be on that wall. That is because he is at once wanted to be forgotten, and yet cannot be forgotten because people like you will come around years later to try to rehabilitate him.
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On March 04 2013 11:22 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 11:14 Hier wrote:
@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
The link to Liquipedia was an open invitation to read it and the articles used as sources so that you can find the point of error in your line of thought. His name happens to still be on that wall. That is because he is at once wanted to be forgotten, and yet cannot be forgotten because people like you will come around years later to try to rehabilitate him.
You fault me for the absence of a source in the LP page that states that Savior was deprived of his MSL/OSL medals, yet you say the reason why he remains on the wall is not because he still has that OSL win, but because "people like me" just want him up there, and OGN obliges. I'm afraid the error is in your line of thought, not mine.
Also, I'm not sure why you are using the term "rehabilitate". Nobody is trying to rehabilitate anybody.
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On March 04 2013 11:51 Hier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 11:22 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 11:14 Hier wrote:
@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
The link to Liquipedia was an open invitation to read it and the articles used as sources so that you can find the point of error in your line of thought. His name happens to still be on that wall. That is because he is at once wanted to be forgotten, and yet cannot be forgotten because people like you will come around years later to try to rehabilitate him. You fault me for the absence of a source in the LP page that states that Savior was deprived of his MSL/OSL medals, yet you say the reason why he remains on the wall is not because he still has that OSL win, but because "people like me" just want him up there, and OGN obliges. I'm afraid the error is in your line of thought, not mine. Also, I'm not sure why you are using the term "rehabilitate". Nobody is trying to rehabilitate anybody.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Jae-Yoon#cite_note-25
Here you go. (Problem is I don't know if the link is broken since I don't know korean, but it seems to be missing.)
I guess we should put that on his LP page. Also might be a good idea to list the vacant medals on the MSL/OSL pages. I'm too lazy to do it atm. :<
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Players-Involved-in-Korean-Starcraft-Match-Fixing-Scandal-Banned-from-the-League-144030.shtml : "He also facilitated access to the other ten pro-gamers for the three booking agents and was subsequently banned and erased from the Association's records." but I guess you wouldn't recognize that as a source.
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On March 04 2013 12:01 quirinus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 11:51 Hier wrote:On March 04 2013 11:22 itsjustatank wrote:On March 04 2013 11:14 Hier wrote:
@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
The link to Liquipedia was an open invitation to read it and the articles used as sources so that you can find the point of error in your line of thought. His name happens to still be on that wall. That is because he is at once wanted to be forgotten, and yet cannot be forgotten because people like you will come around years later to try to rehabilitate him. You fault me for the absence of a source in the LP page that states that Savior was deprived of his MSL/OSL medals, yet you say the reason why he remains on the wall is not because he still has that OSL win, but because "people like me" just want him up there, and OGN obliges. I'm afraid the error is in your line of thought, not mine. Also, I'm not sure why you are using the term "rehabilitate". Nobody is trying to rehabilitate anybody. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Jae-Yoon#cite_note-25Here you go. (Problem is I don't know if the link is broken since I don't know korean, but it seems to be missing.) I guess we should put that on his LP page. Also might be a good idea to list the vacant medals on the MSL/OSL pages. I'm too lazy to do it atm. :< http://news.softpedia.com/news/Players-Involved-in-Korean-Starcraft-Match-Fixing-Scandal-Banned-from-the-League-144030.shtml : "He also facilitated access to the other ten pro-gamers for the three booking agents and was subsequently banned and erased from the Association's records." but I guess you wouldn't recognize that as a source.
Yes, I know of that Fomos source. However, it does not say the players were deprived of their medals. It says that their special awards (such as the player of the year award, weekly and monthly MVP awards, and other such honoraries), which were garnered through nominations by KeSPA and were presented to them by KeSPA, as it says in the article, were taken away by KeSPA. MSL and OSL are leagues that belong to MBC Game and OGN, respectively, and medals gained through those leagues are handed out by (and can be taken away by) the broadcasting companies, not KeSPA. Nowhere does it say the broadcasting companies took Savior's, Luxury's, and fake Yellow's medals away. Sure, OGN is denouncing Savior by removing his photo from the OSL Wall of Fame, but his win is still there, it's not vacant.
Going back to your example, quirinus, Lance Armstrong was deprived of his medals because he was found to have cheated in those races, making his wins illegitimate, not for selling his sport for personal financial gain at the twilight of his career.
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On March 04 2013 11:14 Hier wrote:
@itsjustatank
No need for sarcasm. I do not need to educate myself on the match fixing scandal, thank you. My choice of terminology, however, still stands; despite the missing photo his win is still very much recognised. I originally asked for a source of Gecko[Xp], but you, in turn, have failed to provide one. So I'm not actually sure what the purpose of your response was, I knew what the OSL Wall of Fame looked like.
@quirinus
It appears you have not even read my post atop this page, please do so before responding next time.
And yet the other editors are way better to explain their reasonings, because quite frankly, I don't give a shit about Korea. Never really did and never really will. I only knew how most editors think about savior, so I wanted to be nice and explain it before you're getting killed by sarcasm.
Edit:
This means I am in no way a professional for Korean events, present, past or future - hence I don't edit and/or review, if it is more than ordinary grid editing. There are people that care more and hence know more. I can't know everything, nor is it my 'duty', I'm not staff and my opinion doesn't outweigth anybody else's.
If you actually care about history you should start to edit and add/correct mistakes. However, savior is one of the touchy subjects, even more than the pages of the other match fixers, after all he was one of the heads of this scandal. I see where you come from, I really do, I tried to explain the matter to itsjustatank yesterday in IRC. A lot of us still see the player savior and the match fixer savior as two different entities, so stripping him off his wins seems to be artificially erasing him, which would do no good, given his exceptional career and his impact on the game itself. Your point is that the sources are missing - go and find them. I do trust tank and the other editors/reviewers (there were more editing these pages) enough to believe that there are no more medals in official records for the match fixers. If you don't, go and search on TL and/or Fomos and/or other pages. I really wouldn't know where to start to search other than on TL, because... I don't care enough for Korea to know their important pages. The text on his page still says he won the tours, he simply isn't a winner in the eyes of the competitive scene anymore. If you find it odd that there are dozens {Citation Neded} - any other page with only little sources do have them as well.
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Yea, I don't know Korean so I can't really find the sources...
And for your Lance Armstrong remark, it's completely off the target, I was just saying that people can have their medals revoked.
also, as far as I know, MSL and OSL are a part of kespa, and kespa keeps the records and bosses them around, so if they say the records should be erased, MSL and OSL follow.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
I agree with Hier. If you want to strip him of his medals that's fine if that's what happened, but don't just put Xes there - they tell us nothing. Make it read that he won the tournament, got the gold, then got involved in the scandal, then got his medals stripped. Right now it just reads he beat player A and then ended up Xing the tournament or something. For Armstrong, the places are vacated and then A LINK IS PROVIDED with an explanation.
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Hong Kong9182 Posts
I have replaced the Xes with the placements that no longer exist, with strikethroughs and a direct link to proof that he is matchfixing scum.
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Sweden5554 Posts
Personally I'd prefer having the achievements listed as standard except that the table itself is collapsed and has a title stating that these results have been removed retroactively due to his part of the match fixing scandal. Where we can have an apparent link to the correct section etc.
For result listing in MLS/OSL I'd add a strikethrough over his name and a reference or asterisk with an explanation.
For medals I'd add a separate list with "Medals retroactively removed by KeSPA" or some such and add all of Saviours medals there. And a link for him to the reason why he lost them.
I think this system provided the best amount of information without creating too many special solutions that can't be used again in somewhat similar situations.
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I was thinking the other day that I should modify some things within the wiki, first of all there is no button to redirect me to TL once I've entered the LP (or is there?).
And I did add something to SC:Wiki, it wasn't that hard, I just followed the steps others had made before me and was able to get the info into the neat boxes.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 05 2013 06:30 Gene(S)is wrote:
I was thinking the other day that I should modify some things within the wiki, first of all there is no button to redirect me to TL once I've entered the LP (or is there?).
And I did add something to SC:Wiki, it wasn't that hard, I just followed the steps others had made before me and was able to get the info into the neat boxes.
There is a link back to TL. It's the news link under Teamliquid.net on the sidebar.
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I tend to think I've followed the match fixing scandal quite closely when it was going on, but it is still possible I've missed the official source. So far people were not able to provide one, when asked, neither does LP link to one, and I have given evidence to the contrary. Quite frankly, I am beginning to think an official source stating that the three players' medals had been taken away simply does not exist.
I realize that I have made almost zero contribution to LP, compared to some of you guys. I am not defending Savior, as itsjustatank tends to think, but I would not like for LP to turn into a blog of a 13 your old girl that has just been dumped.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
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Right, but the problem is the Korean source, officially announcing the confiscation of the medals, is nowhere to be found on LP.
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There hasn't been a response in a while, do we have one or not?
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EPT
