EPTFantasy Proleague 11-12 R1 Signup/Discussion - Page 40
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
On December 11 2011 14:22 lyAsakura wrote: Just traded Kal for Piano. God dammit, I had Kal on anti last time and it was so good... What was I thinking... :zz Just did the same haha. | ||
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
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Huggusten
Sweden50 Posts
I Can't decide, they're both doing well but I keep feeling like Baby feels more " solid " | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On December 11 2011 19:08 Arceus wrote: CH, free & Killer net me a lots of deductible points T_T guess I shouldnt pick anti based on hatred alone Ahhh... you hate them for a reason =/ They beat the players you like =S. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On December 11 2011 14:07 Scarecrow wrote: I decided against it, soulkey has 1 extra game and his game against bogus was so impressive. effort is equal at best and flash is getting played late on a losing team. maps are also anti t atm so he might drop the odd vsP he does get to play. How many of the maps are anti-T right now, and to what significance? | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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MuK_x
743 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:37 DyEnasTy wrote: wooki for Bbyong...ya or nay? i think wooki is really good,dont do this. Bbyong has no chance for playing in CJ roster. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
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VGhost
United States3616 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:46 miercat wrote: How many of the maps are anti-T right now, and to what significance? Lineups: 32 Protoss sent 19 Terrans sent 33 Zergs sent (84 players, 42 games) So, Item: P > T and Z > T in terms of lineups by about 3:2, but P=Z. Mirrors: 7 PvP 1 TvT 7 ZvZ I'm not sure exactly how to read mirror numbers. The only one that seems to be significant is the 4 PvPs on Outlier. ZvZ is scattered. The one TvT was on Jade. Significant Upsets: Ground Zero BeSt over Jaedong by.Sun over HoeJJa Sniper Ridge Stork over ZerO ...but you'll note that these are all P>Z and have little to do with Terran (and in fact Stork > ZerO was a strategic win more than a true upset since Stork, despite issues, is a top-tier player). Conclusion: I'm not sure how much we can really say about the maps yet. Outlier may be a Protoss map. Ground ZerO has the two big P>Z upsets, but Jaedong played badly, and the map itself is a standard issue 4P map with no distinguishing features. Overall balance isn't bad. 5-4 TvZ, 4-4 PvT - both standard (or better) for Terran. I think it's really just temporarily weird-looking numbers from a limited sample size. On December 12 2011 05:44 miercat wrote: Where can you check how many matches each team has left to play? R&S thread. Each round is 7 matches, each (half-)season will be 21 total. I think FPL goes through the entire half-season minus playoffs. So CJ has 18 left (4 in the round). | ||
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BachHo
United States170 Posts
On December 12 2011 06:01 VGhost wrote: Significant Upsets: Ground Zero BeSt over Jaedong by.Sun over HoeJJa I honestly don't consider by.Sun to be an upset over HoeJJa. By.Sun's a quality player at least equal in rank to HoeJJa. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:52 SHr3DD3r wrote: Wai are my ACE superstars (Iris and great) failing (Wait, you consider great a superstar? It is not my intention to hurt your feelings, but: HAHAHAHAHA LOL | ||
Imperator
United States246 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:27 Release wrote: in the next week, i feel like people who have best on their mains will begin to pass me. I agree. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On December 12 2011 06:01 VGhost wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 12 2011 04:46 miercat wrote: How many of the maps are anti-T right now, and to what significance? Lineups: 32 Protoss sent 19 Terrans sent 33 Zergs sent (84 players, 42 games) So, Item: P > T and Z > T in terms of lineups by about 3:2, but P=Z. Mirrors: 7 PvP 1 TvT 7 ZvZ I'm not sure exactly how to read mirror numbers. The only one that seems to be significant is the 4 PvPs on Outlier. ZvZ is scattered. The one TvT was on Jade. Significant Upsets: Ground Zero BeSt over Jaedong by.Sun over HoeJJa Sniper Ridge Stork over ZerO ...but you'll note that these are all P>Z and have little to do with Terran (and in fact Stork > ZerO was a strategic win more than a true upset since Stork, despite issues, is a top-tier player). Conclusion: I'm not sure how much we can really say about the maps yet. Outlier may be a Protoss map. Ground ZerO has the two big P>Z upsets, but Jaedong played badly, and the map itself is a standard issue 4P map with no distinguishing features. Overall balance isn't bad. 5-4 TvZ, 4-4 PvT - both standard (or better) for Terran. I think it's really just temporarily weird-looking numbers from a limited sample size. + Show Spoiler + R&S thread. Each round is 7 matches, each (half-)season will be 21 total. I think FPL goes through the entire half-season minus playoffs. So CJ has 18 left (4 in the round). Thanks for the responses - highly informative. Regarding the lineups sent, although the sample size is relatively small, the 3 to 2 PvT, and ZvT ratio seems suggestive of at least a potentially significant/meaningful trend. Would you attribute this difference to mostly random factors/small sample size, or to more specific factor (e.g. maps, # of players of each race, etc.). | ||
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MuK_x
743 Posts
BeSt FlaSh BByong yeOngjae Mind Anti:Tyson,Reality,HoeJJa main team KT.Rolster Rank:#593 thank you KT.Rolster,thank you. | ||
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Gara
Canada435 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:42 MuK_x wrote: i think wooki is really good,dont do this. Bbyong has no chance for playing in CJ roster. I disagree...  Wooki may be a slightly better player overall, but his chances of getting played aren't that much higher than  BByong's, and the team points from CJ are going to add up a lot faster than those from KT (lol) | ||
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MuK_x
743 Posts
On December 12 2011 07:35 Gara wrote: I disagree... Wooki may be a slightly better player overall, but his chances of getting played aren't that much higher than BByong's, and the team points from CJ are going to add up a lot faster than those from KT (lol)Wooki played ace match against BaBy meanwhile KT still has  Action.BaBy has absolutely amazing TvZ but Action ZvT last game amazing to.I mean Wooki is 2nd best protoss in KT,he will definitely get a more chance for playing. | ||
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VGhost
United States3616 Posts
On December 12 2011 06:53 miercat wrote: Thanks for the responses - highly informative. Regarding the lineups sent, although the sample size is relatively small, the 3 to 2 PvT, and ZvT ratio seems suggestive of at least a potentially significant/meaningful trend. Would you attribute this difference to mostly random factors/small sample size, or to more specific factor (e.g. maps, # of players of each race, etc.). Remove the KHAN-CJ match (7 Protoss!) and the Protoss numbers look normal: but CJ and especially KHAN are deep Protoss teams (and their A+ class Zergs played as well – Terran was just a bad matchup). Other than that, drawing any conclusion will depends hugely on something we don't seem to have solid information on: how lineups are determined. I thought for a while that they've been being determined set by set; other people have said that they're preset and just not published. If they're preset, then I think that – at only 3:2 – it's simply a sample size issue, with a little influence from the matches that have been played. For example: KT lost 1-3 without playing Flash – was he set for the 5th set? Tentatively, I think the Protoss and Terran numbers are sample size. The Zerg numbers, on the other hand, don't have a specific factor you can point to but there's been discussion for a while now about Zerg being the new dominant race. Starleague finals etc. Every team except SKT and KT has at least an A-class (or very close) Zerg, with most having two: ACE has ggaemo (and great?), CJ has EffOrt and Hydra, Eight has Jaedong and Killer, KHAN has Roro (and Shine?), STX has Calm, Woongjin has ZerO and Soulkey. SKT's Zergs s2 and soO aren't good, but are more-or-less Proleague quality and they've been used effectively in the past (and soO at least has made OSLs, as has Hyuk). KT (and STX beyond Calm) have no really good Zergs, but several who are Proleague-competent: Action, Crazy-Hydra, and HoeJJa for KT; by.hero, hyvaa, and Modesty for STX. Similar depth league-wide doesn't exist with the other races. CJ, KHAN, and SKT are Protoss-heavy. ACE has no one (maybe Kal when he joins the team). Eight has Jaehoon and Tyson. KT has Stats (and hopefully Violet). STX has Shuttle; Woongjin has free. And Terran... ACE has FBH, Iris, and Piano. All playing well, but none were ever well-rounded (except Iris, sporadically). CJ has Leta... who's notoriously weak to Protoss, and their next-best is sKyHigh. Eight has Sea (very good) and BaBy (ditto) and nothing else. KHAN has Reality and maybe TurN, but neither are established and they have nothing else. KT has Flash and nothing else. SKT has fantasy and hasn't played him yet and nothing else. STX has Bogus and Classic and maybe Last [i]which makes STX the deepest Terran team in Proleague. Woongjin has Light and maybe hOn_sin's finally learned to play. If we talk about "TBLS", we're actually talking two generations there: Stork and Bisu go back a lot farther than Jaedong and Flash. The after-Jaedong-and-Flash years of recruits simply haven't produced any new hot Terrans: BaBy and Bogus are it, and maybe KHAN's second year players. Protoss has Horang2 and Movie and Jangbi and Shuttle (and even newer, Sun); Zerg's got ZerO and Soulkey and Action and Crazy-Hydra and Killer and (maybe) Modesty and by.hero. I'm tempted to blame SC2, which seems to have pulled more heavily from Terrans in Korea, both legends and recruits. If, for instance, MVP stays with Woongjin we have another legitimate Terran in the league. But I doubt that's the real reason, if only because I can't come up with a particular reason there would be more Terran switching. Anyway, that's a lot of speculation and I wrote an editorial instead of answering the question, but maybe it helped?[/u] | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On December 12 2011 10:01 VGhost wrote: [/u]+ Show Spoiler + On December 12 2011 06:53 miercat wrote: Thanks for the responses - highly informative. Regarding the lineups sent, although the sample size is relatively small, the 3 to 2 PvT, and ZvT ratio seems suggestive of at least a potentially significant/meaningful trend. Would you attribute this difference to mostly random factors/small sample size, or to more specific factor (e.g. maps, # of players of each race, etc.). Remove the KHAN-CJ match (7 Protoss!) and the Protoss numbers look normal: but CJ and especially KHAN are deep Protoss teams (and their A+ class Zergs played as well – Terran was just a bad matchup). Other than that, drawing any conclusion will depends hugely on something we don't seem to have solid information on: how lineups are determined. I thought for a while that they've been being determined set by set; other people have said that they're preset and just not published. If they're preset, then I think that – at only 3:2 – it's simply a sample size issue, with a little influence from the matches that have been played. For example: KT lost 1-3 without playing Flash – was he set for the 5th set? Tentatively, I think the Protoss and Terran numbers are sample size. The Zerg numbers, on the other hand, don't have a specific factor you can point to but there's been discussion for a while now about Zerg being the new dominant race. Starleague finals etc. Every team except SKT and KT has at least an A-class (or very close) Zerg, with most having two: ACE has ggaemo (and great?), CJ has EffOrt and Hydra, Eight has Jaedong and Killer, KHAN has Roro (and Shine?), STX has Calm, Woongjin has ZerO and Soulkey. SKT's Zergs s2 and soO aren't good, but are more-or-less Proleague quality and they've been used effectively in the past (and soO at least has made OSLs, as has Hyuk). KT (and STX beyond Calm) have no really good Zergs, but several who are Proleague-competent: Action, Crazy-Hydra, and HoeJJa for KT; by.hero, hyvaa, and Modesty for STX. Similar depth league-wide doesn't exist with the other races. CJ, KHAN, and SKT are Protoss-heavy. ACE has no one (maybe Kal when he joins the team). Eight has Jaehoon and Tyson. KT has Stats (and hopefully Violet). STX has Shuttle; Woongjin has free. And Terran... ACE has FBH, Iris, and Piano. All playing well, but none were ever well-rounded (except Iris, sporadically). CJ has Leta... who's notoriously weak to Protoss, and their next-best is sKyHigh. Eight has Sea (very good) and BaBy (ditto) and nothing else. KHAN has Reality and maybe TurN, but neither are established and they have nothing else. KT has Flash and nothing else. SKT has fantasy and hasn't played him yet and nothing else. STX has Bogus and Classic and maybe Last [i]which makes STX the deepest Terran team in Proleague. Woongjin has Light and maybe hOn_sin's finally learned to play. If we talk about "TBLS", we're actually talking two generations there: Stork and Bisu go back a lot farther than Jaedong and Flash. The after-Jaedong-and-Flash years of recruits simply haven't produced any new hot Terrans: BaBy and Bogus are it, and maybe KHAN's second year players. Protoss has Horang2 and Movie and Jangbi and Shuttle (and even newer, Sun); Zerg's got ZerO and Soulkey and Action and Crazy-Hydra and Killer and (maybe) Modesty and by.hero. I'm tempted to blame SC2, which seems to have pulled more heavily from Terrans in Korea, both legends and recruits. If, for instance, MVP stays with Woongjin we have another legitimate Terran in the league. But I doubt that's the real reason, if only because I can't come up with a particular reason there would be more Terran switching. Anyway, that's a lot of speculation and I wrote an editorial instead of answering the question, but maybe it helped? Well, if there was some evidence for an anti-terran bias of some sort, that evidence would influence future trade decisions, so that was the reason I was asking. Based on your analysis regarding relative depth between races, and rather incidental lineup choices, it does not seem like there is a significant anti-terran bias (suggestive at least). So yes, it was helpful with regard to the question  | ||
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