On September 09 2010 08:40 drixta wrote: Just a note I'd like to add.
All those accusations about Gretech and Blizzard want to eliminate proteam scene are false.
If you spend a little bit of time looking at GSL ladder. Over 80% of the competitors are from proteam such as Prime, Ogs, Werra, Nex...
''- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.''
incredible support to proteams...
beside, Ogs, Werra etc. are proteams but are NOT in a teamleague of some sort thus your argument doesn't hold.
And why the hell would I or anyone else wanted to help something that is not only gives little to no benefit to myself but might might even be competing with me? Call me greedy, evil, or what ever the hell you people want, but from a business point of view, it is totally moronic of Gretech to give KeSPA when the con obviously outweigh the con.
Ah very conflicted, I think above all I don't want to lose PL or MSL, but I also kind've want SC2 e-sports to flourish in SK too. Hopefully, some compromise with both sides winning in some manner will happen
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
We don't know all the facts that well, but the story emerging does make sense. Pro-BW's continued survival is obviously in KeSPA's best interests, and frankly, Blizzard/Gretech wanting to kill BW to make room for SC2 also makes sense. What are the crucial pieces of information not reaching TL that would paint a different picture?
That's interesting what you say about esports.dailygame.co.kr though. If Fox News is a fair comparison, that definitely detracts form their credibility. Would any other Korean speakers concur?
Why can't they just negotiate and let Gretech have the Tuesday slot and they keep the Monday slot? That sounds fair to me, really. That way both companies have to work with 1 less day than they'd like, but it still works.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
Currently, not all people here believe Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies. That is the logic used by Kespa and anti-Blizzard/Gretech. A lot of people are disgusted with Kespa because they view Kespa's desire in being the sole keepers of BW in Korea are to line their own pockets, not to keep eSports alive or 'give back' to the BW fans. In fact, I've heard many times that Korean eSports/BW fans sigh whenever they see a Kespa released article starting with 'Because Kespa wants to strengthen/grow the Korean eSports scene... (they'll do this and that)...', because they end up screwing up everything they touch. You have to remember, Kespa DID NOT grow the Korean eSports scene, OGN & other broadcasters + fans did. Kespa's argument that Blizzard is coming in after they've built up eSports is quite false; in fact, they were accused of it when they started the whole downward spiral of the BW scene in Korea back in 2007 with the broadcasting rights fiasco. That is actually when Blizzard first started being more aggressive with the eSports scene in Korea, since Kespa was screwing over the eSports community royally. (Then of course, you have the GomTV league boycott fiasco as well... How does growing the eSports scene = less leagues and contents?)
But I digress... as dcemuser said above, the more sane fans in Korea want a compromise between the two, which as of now Gretech is more willing to do than Kespa. (Basically, Gretech wanted to negotiate, Kespa said "OK we'll negotiate, but we won't accept any of your terms" Gretech said "WTF? Then what do you want?" Kespa then goes all out media blitz saying "Gretech wants to shut us down")
Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things here, but that's more or less the general consensus shared by the older age fans here. Gotta run, so will be back in a bit.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Huh?
I'm pretty sure my "hard" facts are hard facts. They're just dates and the parties.
The rest I've pointed out was circumstantial evidence and I've used it as such and didn't say anything about.
Secondly if you actually read the DES articles, I'm only taking quotations that were taken from the DES articles, none of their interpretative shit. I understand that DES isn't very credible when it comes to certain things (ie: it's very obvious when they're being retarded) but I'm pretty sure they would have some integrity to not make up quotes.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
Currently, not all people here believe Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies. That is the logic used by Kespa and anti-Blizzard/Gretech. A lot of people are disgusted with Kespa because they view Kespa's desire in being the sole keepers of BW in Korea are to line their own pockets, not to keep eSports alive or 'give back' to the BW fans. In fact, I've heard many times that Korean eSports/BW fans sigh whenever they see a Kespa released article starting with 'Because Kespa wants to strengthen/grow the Korean eSports scene... (they'll do this and that)...', because they end up screwing up everything they touch. You have to remember, Kespa DID NOT grow the Korean eSports scene, OGN & other broadcasters + fans did. Kespa's argument that Blizzard is coming in after they've built up eSports is quite false; in fact, they were accused of it when they started the whole downward spiral of the BW scene in Korea back in 2007 with the broadcasting rights fiasco. That is actually when Blizzard first started being more aggressive with the eSports scene in Korea, since Kespa was screwing over the eSports community royally. (Then of course, you have the GomTV league boycott fiasco as well... How does growing the eSports scene = less leagues and contents?)
But I digress... as dcemuser said above, the more sane fans in Korea want a compromise between the two, which as of now Gretech is more willing to do than Kespa. (Basically, Gretech wanted to negotiate, Kespa said "OK we'll negotiate, but we won't accept any of your terms" Gretech said "WTF? Then what do you want?" Kespa then goes all out media blitz saying "Gretech wants to shut us down")
Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things here, but that's more or less the general consensus shared by the older age fans here. Gotta run, so will be back in a bit.
The only thing you're citing is one Fomos article from Gretech's side, which is included in the circumstantial evidence. Do you really think that's what actually happened, or rather, all that has happened? It's a very one sided tale and there was another fomos article posted that kinda refuted that.
I don't know why you're coming here and suddenly pretending you know everything. If you do, please tell us, but if it's circumstantial evidence, please mention it, and please tell us what source since its' quite funny how you're attacking my use of sources but dont' mention any of your own but we have to believe what you say from what you've read somewhere.
Just try to be a bit more objective about this. "Consensus by the older age fans here"? Even pgr21 is pointing out that Gretech has pushed it too far in this.
You don't need to actually say people want a compromise, lol. I think that's what everyone wants. Not sure what the hell you're playing on.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Huh?
I'm pretty sure my "hard" facts are hard facts. They're just dates and the parties.
The rest I've pointed out was circumstantial evidence and I've used it as such and didn't say anything about.
Secondly if you actually read the DES articles, I'm only taking quotations that were taken from the DES articles, none of their interpretative shit. I understand that DES isn't very credible when it comes to certain things (ie: it's very obvious when they're being retarded) but I'm pretty sure they would have some integrity to not make up quotes.
Not sure what you're trying to attack here.
He's not trying to attack anything, just mentioning DES as a strange source. Of course that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong either, you could quote fox news for giving the dates and number of troops that went to afghanistan any certain day but ignore all their snide and politically motivated comments and you would still have fairly accurate information
As long as the discussions (both on this thread, as well as with Gretech and Kespa) keeping going around in circles, this issue needs to go to court. I won't say who would win, as I am not a legal expert, but the court must define the following prior to making a decision:
1) What exactly does Blizzard own?
2) What does the consumer who buys the game own?
3) What, if anything, is kespa selling? (ie is it broadcasting the replays or broadcasting the performances of the players)
4) Did Blizzard give consent by acquiescence when it did not object to kespa forming the league and broadcasting them? Is there a grounds for lache?
DISCLOSURE: I hope that kespa prevails and in the future, expand to SC2, but I believe the points above has to be addressed by the court so that a legal foundation can be laid to build a stronger esports governing body.
On September 09 2010 08:04 Lokian wrote: Anyone know the specifics of the time-slot issue?
It would be cool if SC1/SC2 were back to back!
It would be like the old days watching smallville, then supernatural back to back. It was a good night for me.
But SC1 has OSL/MSL/PL while SC2 only has GSL? I imagine GSL has a lot of games to do, and should be similar to the amount of games from all three BW leagues? I don't exactly know whats what, and cant really say much about it... but I just hope everything pans out alright. I just wish Kespa is more willing to accommodate more but this does not seem to be the case. Surely those two can work things out and everything will be fine!
Apparently GSL is running every month, so I don't think that there will be any lack of games (we're barely halfway through Ro64 and it's been a week). I agree that a version of PL would be nice, but it's not really as necessary as some people seem to think; other individual sports work just fine without teams. There just has to be more money thrown in.
Exactly... BW progaming would need a TON more money thrown in if the teams were to disband. The problem is that without ProLeague, potential sponsors (of teams mainly) won't get ANYTHING out of sponsoring their players. In individual league the player is the one taking all the praise, unlike ProLeague, where the sponsor is in the spotlight.
Not to mention the fact that sports based on individual league are nowhere near as big as those with team leagues.
Saying it's not necessary as some people think only shows your complete ignorance. ProLeague is what brought corporate sponsors to BW. Getting rid of PL will bring BW back to the dark age of esports (something Blizzard/Gretech are OK with, including SC2).
On September 09 2010 15:59 splints wrote: As long as the discussions (both on this thread, as well as with Gretech and Kespa) keeping going around in circles, this issue needs to go to court. I won't say who would win, as I am not a legal expert, but the court must define the following prior to making a decision:
1) What exactly does Blizzard own?
2) What does the consumer who buys the game own?
3) What, if anything, is kespa selling? (ie is it broadcasting the replays or broadcasting the performances of the players)
4) Did Blizzard give consent by acquiescence when it did not object to kespa forming the league and broadcasting them? Is there a grounds for lache?
DISCLOSURE: I hope that kespa prevails and in the future, expand to SC2, but I believe the points above has to be addressed by the court so that a legal foundation can be laid to build a stronger esports governing body.
And a legal expert will tell you that this issue needs to go to court.
So yeah I like this post as these questions are basically what we have now regarding legal stuff and if you think you've got the answers to them you're just wrong unless you happend to be a lawyer with knowledge of both U.S and South Korean law as well as insight into exactly how all the contracts and TOAs in this mess looks.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Correct me if i am wrong, but u suddenly jump in and claim that your opinion represents that of many (e.g. "the more sane Korean fans", "majority of Korean eSports fan", etc). Where there any sources or petition that South Koreans signed that said that? or did you just slapped it in so that (some) people would find your argument more credible. Personally speaking, for one who's first sentences were the criticism of credibility of sources, you were really quick to forget the need for credible sources (i.e. not yourself).
There were many other things i would like to point out, but obviously they have been mentioned already, here n there in the thread. Just because you were too eager to post your hopefully-sophisticated-sounding argument and couldnt be bothered to read them i wont put them here.
Just one bottomline: If Gretech/Blizz get their way, the current pro-scene as we have now will likely go *poof*. No Gretech = No proteams (yes i have very good reasons backing that claim), and thats the end of high-quality play as we know it. Most people here seem to hope that BW scene doesnt die. If you (new said-hes-Korean guy that just posted here) claim that Gretech wins = Proteam/Proscene still happening, please show me your reasons.
On September 07 2010 13:11 justiceknight wrote: Will Kespa gets a lawsuit thing from Blizzard since Kespa isnt allowed to host anymore BW games??
The filing won't be from Blizzard, it will be from Gretech.
While this means we will likely see some proleague games, possibly the full season. It also means that if and when a judge takes a decision, the effects are likely to be disastrous, and the boycott of Blizzard lines of products is likely to result in many teams losing quality players not wanting to be involved in the aftermath.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Correct me if i am wrong, but u suddenly jump in and claim that your opinion represents that of many (e.g. "the more sane Korean fans", "majority of Korean eSports fan", etc). Where there any sources or petition that South Koreans signed that said that? or did you just slapped it in so that (some) people would find your argument more credible. Personally speaking, for one who's first sentences were the criticism of credibility of sources, you were really quick to forget the need for credible sources (i.e. not yourself).
There were many other things i would like to point out, but obviously they have been mentioned already, here n there in the thread. Just because you were too eager to post your hopefully-sophisticated-sounding argument and couldnt be bothered to read them i wont put them here.
Just one bottomline: If Gretech/Blizz get their way, the current pro-scene as we have now will likely go *poof*. No Gretech = No proteams (yes i have very good reasons backing that claim), and thats the end of high-quality play as we know it. Most people here seem to hope that BW scene doesnt die. If you (new said-hes-Korean guy that just posted here) claim that Gretech wins = Proteam/Proscene still happening, please show me your reasons.
It seems to be the general consensus in korea with fans, I dunno where you would sign that off on a petition. Maybe if you could read korean, you could check it out on some message boards (messages like "this shit should just get over so i can get back to watching my damn proleague") but I don't see how you would assume that he could find a simple and consise "credible source" for general opinion. It's not like they do a census on the damn thing lol.
Why does everybody bash on the man? His opinions seem like the ones I have heard from cousins and friends since I've come back to korea (most pro BW: kespa is meh, gretech is also meh). He just tried to give an opinion from a guy in korea's standpoint, he may be talking in more general terms but its just a matter of english, it makes him sound better (which may leave several of you nitpicky but it may be a language issue etc).
That being said, I don't think that they can run in and shut down proleague, it would be really sad if somehow managed to muster the authority to do that
EPT
