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quoted from The true balance problem - the maps - post on page 5
On August 18 2010 15:37 prodiG wrote:
I think everyone here needs to play the iCCup maps. They're designed from the ground up with balance in mind.
Now, I'd be lying if I said every map is perfect but experimenting with custom features is probably more productive than flaming Blizzard for making bad maps. We as a community *need* (I can NOT emphasize how detrimental hivemind whining is to a community and game) to stop whining "terran's OP, progamers switching to terran so terran is op, zerg sux, lost temple is a bad map" and start working together on ways we can fix it. iCCup itself and the iCCup mapmaking team have already produced eleven maps designed for competitive tournament play, but since these maps - along with the game - are brand new, most (if not all) of the features are very experimental. How will we ever learn if we don't experiment? How did Terrans ever figure out Mech was strong vs. Zerg? Experimenting.
1000 games played on every possible map in every matchup and THEN Terran is still at a significant advantage? Okay, I'll call that imbalance.
Millions of games played on less than ten (i think) maps in every matchup and Terran is winning? I think it's time to change some things up and experiment with maps before we start adjusting the hell out of all of the units. That is after all how Brood War ended up being balanced.
So there's my rant. Personally, the "sc2 is imba" bothers me more and more every day. Every minute wasted writing a generic "terran is OP" post about it is a minute someone could have been playing a custom map or trying to do some legitimate research for a solution.
I urge everyone to check out the iCCup maps, as well as any other custom melee maps that exist out there. I'm sure if we delve deeper into it, we can find a solution without blizzard changing any of the numbers, or provide clear evidence that the game is fundamentally imbalanced.
Latest thoughts
Tournaments and events that are running only Blizzard maps are only slowing down the community and game development. I can understand why an organizer for something like MLG or IEM would want to have nothing but maps tested out the ass rather than something that came out last weekend, but the for all of the smaller events they should definitely check out some of the fantastic maps they have available at their fingertips - at least on US. iCCup has the right idea, and I applaud them for that. I wish every event was as baller as iCCup (and for those of you that are, you are awesome. Keep it up!)
On the note of "We as a community *need* (I can NOT emphasize how detrimental hivemind whining is to a community and game)"
I've seen what this does to communities of not only gamers but people in general. Let me paint this scenario: New player picks zerg, has posted maybe posted on TL two or three times and voted in some polls. New Z player gets wrecked by two terrans in placement or something, turns the game off and decides to browse TL because it's a great way to relieve stress because of how awesome it is. New Z player walks into a thread with a million posts saying "terran's OP" and spends the rest of his night becoming part of the hivemind of imbalance experts. Rinse and repeat a thousand times and you get something along the lines of half of the SC2 Strategy forum. (There was a fantastic two-part post about the SC2 strategy forum a few months back that describes this fantastically well). If every one of these posters were in-game testing out different possibilities the game could be where it will be say six months from now TODAY
I'll end this post with what goes on in my mind when I see a page full of "omg terran op, tvz imba, z can't beat t in a million years, shame on u for playing t ez race, etc"
![[image loading]](http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs445.ash1/24539_439096424464_626159464_5391041_8173631_n.jpg)
I'll be adding to this more and more as time goes on. This is a blog because it's my personal opinion. If you come in here with numbers and facts I'm probably just going to ignore it 
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makes sense to me! the iccup maps are definitely great, but its going to be hard trying to get people to play them since the blizz match making system doesnt incorporate any of these maps.
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Blizzard has already stated they don't intend to make major balance changes without observing and seeing what the community can do with what's already there, so I definitely agree that we should try out new maps. I just wish it were possible to get some sort of ranked, matchmaking queue with these custom maps.
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Yeah I agree that people are jumping on the "x is op" bandwagon wayyyyy too early. I'm all for Blizzard addressing problems with SC2 but balance should not even be considered one of them for at least a few months... people are still working out how to play properly.
It's bringing back nightmares of WoW where people whine and whine until Blizzard nerfs x and then realise the nerfs they've been calling for have slowly destroyed and homogenised the game.
Less time whining and more time solving problems is what is needed!
Put yourselves in the shoes of Bisu when he was faced with Zergs dominating left right and center due to Saviors solid playstyle in 2007. Did he just sit there, whine to Blizzard and play Zerg instead? No. Instead he experimented and completely revolutionised how PvZ was played back then.
"OHHH 2 Star?!?! *stunned silence*"
Foreigners could take a few leaves out of the Korean book of E-SPORTS in this regard 
I do think the maps play a big part in how boring the game is right now as well as balance but I am not sure how that problem will be solved. Blizzard has said they want the ladder maps to be basic and in a similar style to the current ones... Perhaps it will be up to a 3rd party ladder to pick up the slack again.
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I'm gonna start off with what I put in the other thread:
On August 18 2010 15:55 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 15:26 Sentient wrote:On August 18 2010 12:54 Ighox wrote:
Bigger maps would be better for zerg regardless though, most of the terran army is pretty immobile, flanking as zerg is great, expanding on large maps would be more safe. Most of the Terran army is immobile? Sorry, but I'm getting tired of this myth. Only the tanks are immobile, and that's not even all that true. With Medivacs, Banshees, and Hellions, Terran can easily out harass a Zerg player. Watch the Korean KOTH videos of the Terran who goes on repeated 10+ win streaks. Back at the Terran base, it only takes one Thor to shut down mutalisk harassment. Off of creep, the Terran army is more mobile than the Zerg army. Every Terran player needs to repeat this to himself. Because of this, large maps are not going to favor Zerg in SC2. Zerg needs to build a creep highway, and that takes longer on the large open maps that supposedly favor them. The Terran immobility is a myth. If there is ever to be balance, map-based or otherwise, people need to stop talking about it. I think this is an excellent point. But, what if you experimented by having some portions of the map already covered in neutral creep? Then you could have a large map, where zerg could still maintain their speed. I mean look at Colloseum, that had nuetral creep, yet kept from being imbalanced. I know this isn't a completely conclusive example, as it would be significantly more useful (ie, not cheese only), but it is the idea that is important. Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 15:37 prodiG wrote:
I think everyone here needs to play the iCCup maps. They're designed from the ground up with balance in mind.
Now, I'd be lying if I said every map is perfect but experimenting with custom features is probably more productive than flaming Blizzard for making bad maps. We as a community *need* (I can NOT emphasize how detrimental hivemind whining is to a community and game) to stop whining "terran's OP, progamers switching to terran so terran is op, zerg sux, lost temple is a bad map" and start working together on ways we can fix it. iCCup itself and the iCCup mapmaking team have already produced eleven maps designed for competitive tournament play, but since these maps - along with the game - are brand new, most (if not all) of the features are very experimental. How will we ever learn if we don't experiment? How did Terrans ever figure out Mech was strong vs. Zerg? Experimenting.
1000 games played on every possible map in every matchup and THEN Terran is still at a significant advantage? Okay, I'll call that imbalance.
Millions of games played on less than ten (i think) maps in every matchup and Terran is winning? I think it's time to change some things up and experiment with maps before we start adjusting the hell out of all of the units. That is after all how Brood War ended up being balanced.
So there's my rant. Personally, the "sc2 is imba" bothers me more and more every day. Every minute wasted writing a generic "terran is OP" post about it is a minute someone could have been playing a custom map or trying to do some legitimate research for a solution.
I urge everyone to check out the iCCup maps, as well as any other custom melee maps that exist out there. I'm sure if we delve deeper into it, we can find a solution without blizzard changing any of the numbers, or provide clear evidence that the game is fundamentally imbalanced. I completely agree with this, I just wish that the mods would crack down on a zero tolerance level of terran op. Everyone has an opinion, you just end up with uninformed people slinging them around like monkey shit.
I 100% this, I think we need to start looking at maps. This isn't The Sword of Truth, there is no deus ex machina to save the day. Get shit started.
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On August 18 2010 16:09 vek wrote:
It's bringing back nightmares of WoW where people whine and whine until Blizzard nerfs x and then realise the nerfs they've been calling for have slowly destroyed and homogenised the game.
Less time whining and more time solving problems is what is needed!
Funny terrans didn't say this back when. They were sitting on the tank which was "useless"
Then every time a zerg finds a way to do something creative or exciting they QQ until that strat was nerfed into unviability
So yes, let us experiment more and find more new ways to play! Oh wait, BTDT and now we arn't allowed to play like that anymore because it is TOO good, and other people decided to whine and complain instead of finding ways to deal with it.
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I really like the idea of neutral creep tumors. I am more than likely going to experiment with that in one of my future maps.
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On August 18 2010 16:16 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:09 vek wrote:
It's bringing back nightmares of WoW where people whine and whine until Blizzard nerfs x and then realise the nerfs they've been calling for have slowly destroyed and homogenised the game.
Less time whining and more time solving problems is what is needed! Funny terrans didn't say this back when. They were sitting on the tank which was "useless" Then every time a zerg finds a way to do something creative or exciting they QQ until that strat was nerfed into unviabilitySo yes, let us experiment more and find more new ways to play! Oh wait, BTDT and now we arn't allowed to play like that anymore because it is TOO good, and other people decided to whine and complain instead of finding ways to deal with it.
I agree Blizzard was too quick to nerf Zerg in beta. The Queen based strategies were really interesting to watch.
They should have just left things and let them play out more.
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On August 18 2010 16:16 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:09 vek wrote:
It's bringing back nightmares of WoW where people whine and whine until Blizzard nerfs x and then realise the nerfs they've been calling for have slowly destroyed and homogenised the game.
Less time whining and more time solving problems is what is needed! Funny terrans didn't say this back when. They were sitting on the tank which was "useless" Then every time a zerg finds a way to do something creative or exciting they QQ until that strat was nerfed into unviabilitySo yes, let us experiment more and find more new ways to play! Oh wait, BTDT and now we arn't allowed to play like that anymore because it is TOO good, and other people decided to whine and complain instead of finding ways to deal with it.
Yep, that sucks. Also, it doesn't matter anymore! Are you out for nothing more than revenge on "terrans"?? Be the bigger man.
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Wait, so because I want nothing more then a balanced game (seeing as how I play random, I hate to be gimped 1/3 of the time) I am out for revenge on terran?
// less then 1/3 I suppose, since the problem is really only zvt. But there are /alot/ of terrans around.
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the problem with bringing up bisu or whoever is the fact that sc2 zerg is missing the detrimental basis for revolutionizing.
Less strategical options? Check.
Less powerful in large numbers? Check.
Less powerful harassment? Check
Less powerful early game aggression? Check
Better mobility? No
You cant talk about creative play when a race is inferior in all aspects.
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Ok, Blizzard you were right. Sometimes you don't listen to the community. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. To be honest I think we fucked up, screaming imba at every corner. Blizzard is 1000% correct in not listening at the moment. I am getting the feeling that right now the most important problem is the custom map implementation and ladder maps. Please fix those asap, were dying for some more diversity!
This is how I see it atm:
1. Tournaments won't be quick to pick up maps that are untested
2. Map makers can't test maps because no one plays on them
3. No one plays on them because 1) they are unaware of the search button ( T_T ), and 2) because they don't want to play a Bronze leaguer in custom game anyhow
4. Also they aren't ladder, and everyone wants be number one
Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key- actually it's fucking huge which is great), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
That's pretty much all I have to add to this rant atm.
BLIZZARD ARE YOU HAPPY NOW!? ARE YOU HAAAPPPY??
edit: I hope this is understandable, it's quite late for me atm 
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On August 18 2010 16:36 dogabutila wrote:
Wait, so because I want nothing more then a balanced game (seeing as how I play random, I hate to be gimped 1/3 of the time) I am out for revenge on terran?
// less then 1/3 I suppose, since the problem is really only zvt. But there are /alot/ of terrans around.
No... you aren't getting it. What we are trying to say is instead of looking for nerfs from Blizzard to solve your problems people should be experimenting and trying to find solutions.
Doing things yourself is always more rewarding than throwing your hands up in the air and refusing to play with the lego until someone finds the missing piece for you.
Don't be the guy who sits there following random build orders and then going:
"well I did what I was meant to do and I lost but that guy was terran lol terran is op STRAIGHT TO THE FORUMS"
The game has not been figured out yet. Brood War still hasn't been "solved" and it has been 12 years since it came out.
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Also when it comes to economy macro aspect at least terrans hold their own- and exceptionally so with mules.
When it comes to army macro aspect while zerg does get a lot of larva superior production is just an illusion, because zerg is very weak in small numbers and both hive units- broodlord and ultra have a build time of forever.
Toss and terran are capable of reinforcing much faster simply because each unit in their ball is much more valuable then zergs.
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On August 18 2010 16:40 Sfydjklm wrote:
the problem with bringing up bisu or whoever is the fact that sc2 zerg is missing the detrimental basis for revolutionizing.
Less strategical options? Check.
Less powerful in large numbers? Check.
Less powerful harassment? Check
Less powerful early game aggression? Check
Better mobility? No
You cant talk about creative play when a race is inferior in all aspects.
Zerg is boring and that is definitely an issue worth addressing.
Screaming for Terran nerfs like what a lot of people do in the SC2 forums here and on battle.net is not going to make Zerg (or even the game as a whole) more dynamic/fun to play.
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Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be.
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whining does fix imbalance because the terrans whiend in the beginning of beta.. and well it works also Blizzard isnt going to change ladder maps any sooner than editing the units so your solution isnt viable
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it would actually make more sense to revert back to zerg dominated times and tell terran and protoss to dig themselves out of the hole rather then to tell zergs now to keep trying.
At least terran and protoss have effective harrass techniques and tech switches.
On August 18 2010 16:47 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:40 Sfydjklm wrote:
the problem with bringing up bisu or whoever is the fact that sc2 zerg is missing the detrimental basis for revolutionizing.
Less strategical options? Check.
Less powerful in large numbers? Check.
Less powerful harassment? Check
Less powerful early game aggression? Check
Better mobility? No
You cant talk about creative play when a race is inferior in all aspects. Zerg is boring and that is definitely an issue worth addressing. Screaming for Terran nerfs like what a lot of people do in the SC2 forums here and on battle.net is not going to make Zerg (or even the game as a whole) more dynamic/fun to play.
oh yea it will. Winning is all sorts of fun.
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You also have to realize its not a post release issue. This has been going on for months, terrans are just learning how to play properly very slowly. The imbalance showed itself as soon as mech came into play.
How long do we need before Blizzard will finally decide its not rushing in anymore? Half a year?
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How long did it take terrans to realize how good are mass reapers? How come noone used ghost even when Jinro displayed how fucking effective they are?
And how come it took dimaga one week after being defeated by a terran or protoss to come up witha new unique strategy to counter?
Now we're going back to the arguement that zerg players just have a phenomenal gaming pedigree, while terrans are mostly Maka-who?
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EPT
