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5673 Posts
Vedic, it is obvious that you have taken Philosophy 101 and passed with flying colours.
On July 06 2009 07:56 Vedic wrote:
I think, therefore I am. Logic and science exist to be tested because they can be perceived. Anything outside the scope of possible physical human perception can not, and never will be. Philosophy is basically an ancient version of trolling.
I totally agree. I post, therefore I am.
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When you think, or post in riptide's case, it draws the world towards you, making you the center which states one of the fundamental concepts of Sartre, the "consciousness of being."
Vedic I see you dislike philosophy but strangely enough a lot of what you have said about philosophy display a pretty good understanding of some of the more difficult philosophical terms, particularly those of Sartre and Nietzsche, which I admit I find impressive.
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5673 Posts
Perhaps Macbeth was existentialist? This was before it existed as a philosophical movement, but still.
Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? Or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw.
- Macbeth Act II, Scene I
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence
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On July 06 2009 10:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Yea but you must've gotten that definition from somewhere and I'm interested in where because it's quite a good one and pretty sums up the later philosophies of Nietzsche.
No I have not seen a unicorn not exist.
Yes
Because I can think of something intangible but not something invisible.
Yes but even with rigorous scientific standards I still have trouble understanding the concept of invisibility and how it can exist in the physical world.
What do you know of that is intangible but not invisible? I worked out my position on my own, while only doing research on philosophy and other religions after I had a firm grasp of what I needed to dictate a logical basis for decisions.
I started off as a Christian until the age of about 14, at which point there came a night where I had questioned why God allowed bad things to happen. Like the traditional path to atheism, I went the route of proof. The thing is, if you stop at just requiring proof of god, you haven't evaluated your position enough. One cannot possibly perceive anything outside their own perception, so one should accept that logic itself is relative.
You can interact with me in physical terms, but I have no way of ever knowing that you actually perceive or exist beyond my ability to view you. If I didn't perceive, would the universe still exist? I can see the moon, but without ever traveling there, can I be sure that it truly exists? There are stars so far away that I would not be able to travel there in my lifetime, even at the speed of light. For all intents and purposes, that star does not exist.
The unicorn situation is meant to promote this line of thinking. To say something doesn't exist, or can't exist, is irrelevant. You have only ever seen something exist, and that is where logic comes from.
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I would say that God the perfect being is something that is intangible but not invisible. I'm glad you were able to work out a position.
I agree that no one can perceive anything outside of their own perception.
I agree just because something can be seen doesn't mean it exists.
I have never seen a unicorn exist therefore it doesn't exist.
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All of this is really deep thinking btw Vedic. Too bad these subjects are ignored in most of the philosophy I read.
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so vedic it is true that god doesn't exist because he is outside of perception right.
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On July 06 2009 11:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so vedic it is true that god doesn't exist because he is outside of perception right.
Even if he showed himself to me, I am still restrained by my own perception. I cannot verify anything outside the realm of physical logic that my perception allows. The barrier that all logic faces is it's own view point.
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I disagree, when people do LSD they can experience events which humans can't experience with their normal perceptions. That is how many come to believe in the existence of God through personal experience. Logic does not rule the human mind at all times. Sometimes I can do illogical things too and still be human. And in doing those illogical activities I can be unrestrained from the normal boundaries of the physical world.
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On July 06 2009 11:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I disagree, when people do LSD they can experience events which humans can't experience with their normal perceptions. That is how many come to believe in the existence of God through personal experience. Logic does not rule the human mind at all times. Sometimes I can do illogical things too and still be human. And in doing those illogical activities I can be unrestrained from the normal boundaries of the physical world.
The actions you take still come back to a root chemical and electrical compound. It's not that logic rules the mind, but that the mind creates logic because it can perceive. Schrödinger's cat is a great illustration of this, and why logic is relative.
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yes but even though the chemical and electrical reactions of the body are based upon logical relations, i can still perform illogical and irrational actions which disobey the normal laws of the physical world. logic is not really relative because its inherent in all relationships in the world on the atomic level. Everything in and immediately outside of the atom is based upon logical scientific law therefore everything in the universe is based upon logical actions. Except human beings who have souls.
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also i dont think schrodinger's cat proves anything except that quantum mechanics is problematic to say the least. the fact is that in the real world, the cat can not be simultaneously alive and dead, which goes along with what I say that everything made up of atoms follows logical actions except for humans.
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On July 06 2009 11:45 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes but even though the chemical and electrical reactions of the body are based upon logical relations, i can still perform illogical and irrational actions which disobey the normal laws of the physical world. logic is not really relative because its inherent in all relationships in the world on the atomic level. Everything in and immediately outside of the atom is based upon logical scientific law therefore everything in the universe is based upon logical actions. Except human beings who have souls.
You are the sum of your experiences. The logic you perceive between atoms is there because you yourself were able to project logic on it. What you say is illogical or irrational is a creation of your perception, not any universal governing law. If I have a permanent mental disorder that makes certain people look like killer bugs coming after me, my decision to try to kill them would be logical and reasonable.
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On July 06 2009 11:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
also i dont think schrodinger's cat proves anything except that quantum mechanics is problematic to say the least. the fact is that in the real world, the cat can not be simultaneously alive and dead, which goes along with what I say that everything made up of atoms follows logical actions except for humans.
Have you ever seen a cat not be simultaneously alive and dead? Again, the actual position of the cat is irrelevant until you view it. Up until that point, you can't have a justifiable position.
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Wow...after reading all that, it would seem that Vedic and I were arguing about two different things from two different places.
Again, my bad for not clarifying my terms and being unclear/ambiguous, but I still find it dumb and useless to try discussing any of this with a guy who finds philosophy to be "trolling" and yet still tries to tell me I don't understand logic. -_______-;;
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Yea but didn't you say that logic was a physical property? Logical relations are found everywhere in the physical world and do not need a mind to confirm them. What I mean with humans is that with the mental disorder you described I can both kill and not kill people and not killing people would be illogical but still possible because I have a soul, like all human beings. Physical objects such as an ipod doesnt have souls and it is what separates everything else from humans. This soul enables me to make decisions which are illogical and unreasonable for whatever reason and thats why I can break the shackles of physical, rational, law. It is the first step in what many religions recognize as the path to nirvana, becoming self conscious of your soul.
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On July 06 2009 12:04 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 11:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
also i dont think schrodinger's cat proves anything except that quantum mechanics is problematic to say the least. the fact is that in the real world, the cat can not be simultaneously alive and dead, which goes along with what I say that everything made up of atoms follows logical actions except for humans. Have you ever seen a cat not be simultaneously alive and dead? Again, the actual position of the cat is irrelevant until you view it. Up until that point, you can't have a justifiable position.
i have not seen a cat like that, hence what I mean by quantum mechanics is problematic in that its conclusion is illogical and can never happen in the physical world. Pretty sure theres never gonna be a cat simultaneously alive and dead so I can safely assume quantum mechanics is wrong in this case and a dead/alive cat can never exist.
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On July 06 2009 12:09 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Yea but didn't you say that logic was a physical property? Logical relations are found everywhere in the physical world and do not need a mind to confirm them. What I mean with humans is that with the mental disorder you described I can both kill and not kill people and not killing people would be illogical but still possible because I have a soul, like all human beings. Physical objects such as an ipod doesnt have souls and it is what separates everything else from humans. This soul enables me to make decisions which are illogical and unreasonable for whatever reason and thats why I can break the shackles of physical, rational, law. It is the first step in what many religions recognize as the path to nirvana, becoming self conscious of your soul.
Logic is a physical property in that it exists as a physical state in your mind. Your emotions, thoughts, memories, everything... They're all in your mind in a physical form, and they make up what allow you to perceive. However, again, without actually having perception, there could be no way to verify that they exist. Logic is just a form of testable demonstration.
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On July 06 2009 12:11 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 12:04 Vedic wrote:On July 06 2009 11:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
also i dont think schrodinger's cat proves anything except that quantum mechanics is problematic to say the least. the fact is that in the real world, the cat can not be simultaneously alive and dead, which goes along with what I say that everything made up of atoms follows logical actions except for humans. Have you ever seen a cat not be simultaneously alive and dead? Again, the actual position of the cat is irrelevant until you view it. Up until that point, you can't have a justifiable position. i have not seen a cat like that, hence what I mean by quantum mechanics is problematic in that its conclusion is illogical and can never happen in the physical world. Pretty sure theres never gonna be a cat simultaneously alive and dead so I can safely assume quantum mechanics is wrong in this case and a dead/alive cat can never exist.
But if the cat was put in the box, and you were told that the cat was both simultaneously alive and dead, you could not say that the cat was or was not until you opened the box and were able to verify.
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EPT
