EPTWant your replay analyzed? - Page 4
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
But idk about C+, never obsed one of those games. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
However I don`t wanna be just another one bashing on you and I think you have learned your lesson now, so I will try to do some good here as well. So here is a rep for you to analyze if you want to : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7499 | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
On February 06 2009 14:20 Chill wrote: You remind me of RPF and his 900 friends. hahahahah | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On February 07 2009 03:46 Oystein wrote: I got no clue whats written before all these posts was edit but I can tell you this inreach naming names you have beaten does in no way tell what skill level you are at, and almost always just comes off as someone bragging about beating better players, and I have to agree with the others that you should have just posted your iccuprank and maybe a link to your account. However I don`t wanna be just another one bashing on you and I think you have learned your lesson now, so I will try to do some good here as well. So here is a rep for you to analyze if you want to : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7499 I kind of lost the will to do this but I did watch your rep and there's a few things I can mention. First off I'm not sure why you didn't hide your proxy, there is ample space behind expansion minerals at both the north and south sides of Destination, he didn't actually scout at all but that is obviously abnormal. Taking his assimilator is fine to delay his factory but I would really consider canceling it and letting him have it before your assimilator completes, what you are doing by taking his gas is basically forcing him to consider going two barracks which is the counter to your proxy rush, basically cancel it a short time before he would build his second barracks, he will take his refinery immediately to stop you from taking it again which will either delay his second racks or put the notion of getting it out of his mind. Now hopefully your facing a 1 racks with delayed fact vs a proxy rush, which is optimal, his wall raped your proxy rush but I'll get to that in a second. You forgot to cancel your pylon that had 15% life and was being attacked by a bunch of SCV's when it completed. Now, that's 200 minerals you wasted which should have only been 50 minerals wasted.. what you need to do with those minerals is get a 2nd pylon in your main faster obviously, as you were at 17/17 for a while, but as important get a faster core and gas if you see he's walling in, as I'm sure you know zealots don't do a whole lot vs a walling terran so the only way you can do damage with your proxy is to goon up. Another mistake in the early game that cost you is leaving his base with your probe accidentally, you really need to try to avoid that, just have the mindset that if you go near his wall to build a pylon, you just touch it and then go run around his base. After he started going M/M, you had some units at the top of his ramp and I had your vision on and you could see 6 marines with his barracks still working, this should have alerted you to the possibility of 2 racks.. Besides noticing his growing number of rines which wasn't necessary to save your units there, you should have kept a closer eye on them. Small groups in vulnerable positions like that need to be babysat, I would practice your screen changing skills, I assume they were hotkeyed, just practice double tapping their hotkey while a probe is on it's way to build a building or something. I can't remember if your goon range was done as he crossed your bridges with his force but if it was you should have been down the ramp at that point, basically should have had your goons where your expansion would be, you don't want to be to close to the bridges otherwise he might turn around and run home and you won't get enough kills. Have it so that he has to cross the bridge, ball up a bit and then engage. This gives you room to micro back and makes it difficult for him to run away. Also I noticed you didn't focus fire, it wasn't totally necessary there but it could have been and with that number of goons you should consider it, remember to focus medics if they are up front unless they are surrounded by other medics and you have less than 7 goons in range. Now for your counter attack.. I know this was a bitter moment for you.. always remember it is better to walk perpendicular to a persons ramp than towards it in a line, ESPECIALLY with goons. But even with melee units, you want them to form a line perpendicular to the ramp and then swarm anything that comes down it. ![[image loading]](http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5381/loljs4.jpg) Had you done this you could have killed his bunker and likely taken control of his expo and ended the game.. small thing but obviously a huge micro mistake. Your 2nd gas was a little late.. I liked that you took your 3rd base quickly. Basically the rest of the game you did good expanding and defending but had a hard time spending the money they brought in, something that will help is building pylons in a position so that when you want more gates you don't have to wait for a pylon, makes it about 50% as hard to set up your macro for the late game. Also every single player with bad macro, has bad macro because they eventually have to queue up units because they can't spend, try for 1 month to be a player who gets too many gates and I gaurentee you will see immediate results. I would highly recommend arbiter player instead of that weak switch to carriers, you should have gotten arbiters quite quickly with how the game went. That's basically it for the late game, get arbiters and a shit ton more gateways. Hope you can squeeze something useful out of all this.. EDIT: I just started rereading this and I hope I don't come off as a douche at the beginning, I just typed everything as it came and didn't really edit my thoughts for friendliness, you are a good player and I think your mistakes are easy to fix so you should be able to get better quickly. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
- letting the assimilator finish is pretty much standard, canceling it and letting the T take his gas is a mistake, he needs gas more than I need the extra money. - I did not have range when he moved across the bridges and I moved out and engaged him once I got it, and I did focus fire on the first few rins until their numbers was so low it didnt really matter anymore. - About the counterattack in case you did not understand it I was not trying to take out the bunker, I was trying to walk up his ramp and into his main neglecting the entire bunker but his transferring SCVs stopped me from doing it. -About the probe I didnt move it out on accident, but I was sloppy and did not realize he had an scv blocking the ramp, and normally I would have just used a mineral next to the assimilator to drill my way in but after 36hours without sleep your brain aint functioning at top speed  Overall I think lots of people could use your analyzes to improve their game (at least if you do it as thorough as this one) , and its a great initiative that got awfully sidetracked. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On February 07 2009 06:48 Oystein wrote: Pretty good analyzes of the game, it was my last laddergame I played yesterday after 36 hours without sleep so I knew it was full of mistakes and the reason I chose it. Tbh I just wanted to get an idea of your analyzing capabilities and all in all I think you did a great job, however a couple of things I disagree\correct on - letting the assimilator finish is pretty much standard, canceling it and letting the T take his gas is a mistake, he needs gas more than I need the extra money. - I did not have range when he moved across the bridges and I moved out and engaged him once I got it, and I did focus fire on the first few rins until their numbers was so low it didnt really matter anymore. - About the counterattack in case you did not understand it I was not trying to take out the bunker, I was trying to walk up his ramp and into his main neglecting the entire bunker but his transferring SCVs stopped me from doing it. -About the probe I didnt move it out on accident, but I was sloppy and did not realize he had an scv blocking the ramp, and normally I would have just used a mineral next to the assimilator to drill my way in but after 36hours without sleep your brain aint functioning at top speed Overall I think lots of people could use your analyzes to improve their game (at least if you do it as thorough as this one) , and its a great initiative that got awfully sidetracked. The main reason of canceling the assimilator isn't for the money, it's so he doesn't go 2 racks, why are you pushing him into the build that counters your proxy? I just watched that battle again and yea your right to wait for goon range, i would have run your goons actually over your bridge as your micro fired instead of back up your ramp. Why not fight range goons vs a bunker? I admit running up could have been correct if you go across that bridge but going across the other bridge would have been a game ender. You had range goons vs very few units which is GG. The probe shouldn't have left his base, you need to see if he is getting a 2nd barracks, in fact the presence of your probe could delay his second barracks. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
One thing I missed in my first post, you asked about the proxy placement, no terran who scouts for proxies are ever gonna miss it regardless of where you place it in his natural or outside the bridges. That gateway placement in particular also helps later as he can`t place his CC on the spot and have to kill it before he can land it and start mining and also its closer to his base so its easier to get to his wall in time to delay the rax. And about the probe, yeah it should not have left the base, but that aint a problem if you just move it back in again using his minline, but as said before this was a bad game from my part. And yeah it was a mistake in retrospect not moving over the other bridge with my goons and engage the bunker but when it happened I did not have any vision there so I went with what I believed would be the best choice at the time. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
Edit:just saw the post u lost the will to do it.....  | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
It's a good idea most of the time if you can do it. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
Do me a favor and list all the things he lost and all the things you lost.. Did he actually lose anything? A single unit or building? You lost: 2 pylons 1 gateway 1 assimiliator 1 probe 2 zealots 1 dragoon Yeah, I'm sure you were ahead. Please stop arguing, if you just want to force a terran to go 2 racks or delay his factory you can do it with just your probe if they don't deny you by getting an early refinery. Which most will. Considering this terran didn't scout at all I don't think you need to be playing with the mindset: "No terran who scouts proxies..." You delayed his CC by what.. 5 seconds? Lift, move 2 inches, land. How are you gonna move your probe back when it's obvious a depot is going up the second your pylon goes down? It's possible but hardly reliable and you have absolutely no reason to leave his base. As far as you thinking his ramp might be clear.. I'm sorry but the odds of his ramp being completely devoid of activity at that point in time is really low, and very costly if it isn't, it was a decision making error. Why do I get in an argument with every single person on this website. You gave me a replay chalk full of mistakes and I point them out and you tell me I'm wrong. What did you want me to say? You played so good I can't find any mistakes. God why am I so sure I'm going to get flamed for this.. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On February 07 2009 09:26 Racenilatr wrote: I would love to have someone help me analyse some replays <3 Also off the records, I HAVE changed and will listen to anything you tell me....almost anything Edit:just saw the post u lost the will to do it..... Lol I remember me and that guy were like dude don't argue the next thing we say.. and then we both agree adamantly on obvious advice and you are like "No but, etc" Seems like everyone is like that. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On February 07 2009 09:36 Xeris wrote: Terran going 2 rax is really easy to stop, even if you don't know it's coming it's kinda easy to stop. Taking their gas to force them to do that is great, because it's easier to stop if you know it's coming. Also, if you let assim finish, and they send 5-6 SCV to kill it, they lose mining time, so you really don't lose much money and delay their gas by awhile. It's a good idea most of the time if you can do it. First off this debate isn't as applicable as it could be because no good terran let's you take their gas unless they aren't paying attention.. I agree to let it finish if you aren't proxying but 2 racks is terrans counter to proxying.. If your mindset is "I'm going to sac a pylon/gateway to force them to go 2 racks".. that's just terrible strategy. Good terrans immediately switch to standard play once they have your rush controlled and that means you have barely delayed them at all. This replay is not an example of good terran adaptation, he just didn't switch back to standard play nearly as fast as any good player. It's just so counter-productive to force a player into the counter of what you are doing. I really wouldn't mind not talking about this anymore. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On February 07 2009 09:45 inReacH wrote: Why do I get in an argument with every single person on this website. You gave me a replay chalk full of mistakes and I point them out and you tell me I'm wrong. What did you want me to say? You played so good I can't find any mistakes. God why am I so sure I'm going to get flamed for this.. Yeah the rep was full of mistakes and you pointed them out good and as I said several times I played like shit that game and that is why it was a good game to analyze. However you you seem to not understand a few basic things like when any terran scouts for a proxy they WILL check all location at the natural and outside the bridges so "hiding" it will not work or that letting the gas finish and have him going 2rax is NOT a bad thing even if its a "counter" to your proxy, since you expect to lose that proxy sooner or later anyway unless you flat out kill him with it, because going bio hurts him more than you losing that proxy. As for the "I'm going to sac a pylon/gateway to force them to go 2 racks" the plan was to do damage obviously, not just to force him into 2rax, but since he managed to wall off I could not do that. As for what he lost? A ton of mining time, late refinery and therefor late factory tech and his entire first offensive mnm force. And about the gateway in that spot also showed me that he expoed so I could take a quick double expo once I broke out and it showed me that he moved out with his first force instead of killing the gate. In case you did not notice it I did not comment on a ton of things, like how you were perfectly correct I should have canceled that pylon, gone arbs instead of carriers etc. But you make it sound like I am trying to pick apart your entire analyzes when that is far from the truth and I even praised your thorough analyzes, but pointed out a few small things that I disagreed with and that mainly being proxyplacement and the finishing of the gas, the other things I agree was mistakes and I just told you why they happened (the counterattack, sending out probe of main) | ||
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food
United States1951 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
Seriously there is a bottom line and the bottom line is that you are manipulating your opponent into what counters what you are doing.. he lost a tiny bit of mining time for like 4 buildings and 4 units.. not quite optimal.. If you want to play against M/M with goons so bad all you have to do for a mid-level terran to let you take his gas is distract him, the second you get up his ramp, build a pylon in vision of him, he will wonder wtf you are doing.. sometimes even run his SCV's to it right away, then march your probe to his gas and cancel pylon and put up assim, this will work a decent amount of the time against players at your level. You're doing all this shit in the early game but you aren't thinking about the consequences of your actions and whether or not they contradict each other. When the terran scouts for a proxy yes he will scout there, terrans don't specifically scout for proxies every game, sure he will after he scouts your base but you are still delaying the fact that you are proxying for the time it takes an SCV to go across the map, and what you can gain from a hidden proxy is more than what you gain from it being just under his ramp.You can still see his expo if you put it behind his minerals. BTW His first offensive MM force DOES NOT count as the initial exchange, that was a bad players donation. I understand your thinking, if you're going to be aggressive then the more ways you can put pressure on him the better, but building an assim isn't the right kind of pressure, it doesn't yield the correct results. Anyways sorry if I'm getting too aggressive, I just find arguing about such strategical paradoxes very frusterating. The thing you want your opponent to do if you are proxying is delaying him yes but still have him tech, forcing him into tier 1 units is rediculous, and remember if he walls up, cut probes and possibly even zealot production to get goons as fast as possible. If you proxy at the very least you want to make him use his workers to stop you and pick some off in the process. Otherwise you will ALWAYS lose to an equally skilled player. | ||
Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
I will take it step by step since you fail to grasp a lot of things. - 2 rax does NOT counter what I am doing, 2rax counters nothing in fact as chill is saying, its a piss poor strat that is easily beaten when scouted, and having him go 2rax for the prize of your proxy is a deal EVERY decent protoss would be happy to take 24\7. So no it is not a counter, it only makes you lose the proxy. The perfect counter to proxy is getting up a wall or at least defense while you tech up to factory and kills his proxy while expoing, or if you have a wall just play normal siege expand and you will be well ahead. - Im not even gonna bother commenting on your build pylon to steal gas, with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want. - How do my points contradict each other? - You seem to think making that second zealot was a mistake, but you realize when I see he have 3 marines with more making I can`t defend if he goes out to kill my proxy, rushing to goons with no way of producing them isnt very useful... - Pretty much every single terran at my level WILL scout for proxies on destination unless I give them reason not to (read, no probe arriving in their base) and some will still search for it. - You seem to think that him getting tier 1 units and not teching is a bad thing, and herein lies the problem, if he skips on tech and gets tier 1 units that is GOOD for protoss and until you realize this there is really nothing I can say that will make you see you are wrong. Ask any protoss player what he would want to face of tech units or marines.... - About this player who you seem to think in one of the regular bad players at my level, this is a guy that have been fighting it out at B\B+\A- levels for 500 games playing pretty much only koreans, in my book that makes him pretty good, but maybe you consider that to be a mid-level terran what do I know. But I do find it amusing that you make lots of assumptions about the play at my level (B-\B\B+ level) when you state you are a C+ player. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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