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Active: 8783 users

another example of why apm doesnt mean anything

Blogs > Caller
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-24 20:07:01
November 24 2008 20:05 GMT
#1
[image loading]


having 3x more apm than your opponent doesn't mean jack when you don't know how to play the game

or rather how to deal with stop lurkers hahaha

i swear if i see another "omg how to improve apm" thread on here there will be serious repercussions.

*
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
November 24 2008 20:08 GMT
#2
GOOD JOB CALLER

3/5
posting on liquid sites in current year
distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
November 24 2008 20:10 GMT
#3
welcome to 5 years ago.
This is my truth, tell me yours!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24805 Posts
November 24 2008 20:10 GMT
#4
Your data does not fully support the claim that apm doesn't matter. I guess it supports the claim that having more apm doesn't necessarily increase chance of winning... although everyone pretty much knew that.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
November 24 2008 20:10 GMT
#5
well of course APM means something (you're not going to win with like 40 APM) but it's definitely not always the difference between a loss and a win
blabberrrrr
SpiralArchitect
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2116 Posts
November 24 2008 20:15 GMT
#6
Woo hoo APM doesnt matter when you are D+ and playing some random noob... No der. Its totally different at a level where missing an SCV or a late rax can lose you the game.
TeamLiquids #1 illiterate writer, writin dem wordz is de hardz.
Not_Computer
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada2277 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-24 20:19:50
November 24 2008 20:18 GMT
#7
i need to find that game where i beat this a 240+ apm with 40-60 apm on Luna or something... was so long ago back when i first learned 1v1 and build orders from my clanmates...
(PvT i think i luckily scouted first try and 6 pylon 2 gate massed zealots into a non-blocked mech build)

... but yeah, nothing new

edit: didn't mean to sound spiteful, congrats though! I know it feels great to beat someone who's putting more effort but getting less out of it
"Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea."
ThE_OsToJiY
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada1167 Posts
November 24 2008 20:19 GMT
#8
APM means a lot, 1 game means nothing. Anyway there are a few 300 apm noobs, but the amount of 300 apm gosus is a lot more than 100 apm gosus, and the amount of 100 apm noobs is a lot more than 300 apm noobs. So what if you can find 1 game. I'd say 75% of the time the person with higher apm wins. D:
@ostojiy
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
November 24 2008 20:26 GMT
#9
i forgot to mention the part when he saw me have like two idle drones lying around and he was like "lol noob"

its not so much that im proud of beating a guy with 3x as much apm, its that i always get pissed when people are like "oh you only win because you play fast" or "how do i play faster to win k thx" or when people on iccup are like 'Lol noob you need 200 apm to play at d+" and other stupid things like that.

so take that iccup apm haters
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
November 24 2008 20:27 GMT
#10
On November 25 2008 05:10 micronesia wrote:
Your data does not fully support the claim that apm doesn't matter. I guess it supports the claim that having more apm doesn't necessarily increase chance of winning... although everyone pretty much knew that.

Aww Micronesia you lost your scout! Imo it looked better than the archon, I guess archon is too fat or something?
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
November 24 2008 20:32 GMT
#11
On November 25 2008 05:10 micronesia wrote:
Your data does not fully support the claim that apm doesn't matter. I guess it supports the claim that having more apm doesn't necessarily increase chance of winning... although everyone pretty much knew that.


lol micro ur average apm is only 20 points higher than mine according to bwchart yet you routinely rape me hardcore anyways

so clearly that claim is supported.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
LeperKahn
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Romania1852 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-24 20:48:58
November 24 2008 20:44 GMT
#12
I am glad you posted this blog, for we all know that the strategy and blog forums are over run with bad posts about improving APM. Your blog clearly illustrates the problem and solves it. I think you have saved many a noob and veteran poster alike from being consumed by the evil corrupt APM gods. In fact, I'd say that this blog post simply was required for the salvation of the very team liquid population. Once again, thank you. Also, your threat to posters talking about how APM matters really seals the deal. You're really making sure no one ever posts that topic ever again.

1/5
CJ Entusman #14 • http://soundcloud.com/discodinosaur • https://discosaur.bandcamp.com/
BaDayOri
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)469 Posts
November 24 2008 20:45 GMT
#13
maybe it doesnt matter at the level that you're playing at
and no homo but you better show your boy respect, before the heck blow your head off like oral sex -CASSIDY
Mikilatov
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States3897 Posts
November 24 2008 21:06 GMT
#14
Apparently a lot of people want to jump on you here. I don't.

APM is important only if you're using those actions wisely - and I think that's what you were trying to say, and I believe everyone would agree with that. Very interesting chart. =D
♥ I used to lasso the shit out of your tournaments =( ♥ | Much is my hero. | zizi yO~ | Be Nice, TL.
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
November 24 2008 21:07 GMT
#15
On November 25 2008 05:19 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
APM means a lot, 1 game means nothing. Anyway there are a few 300 apm noobs, but the amount of 300 apm gosus is a lot more than 100 apm gosus, and the amount of 100 apm noobs is a lot more than 300 apm noobs. So what if you can find 1 game. I'd say 75% of the time the person with higher apm wins. D:

I wouldnt say that. Atleast 90%(maybe more) of the games I play on iccup the person has higher apm then me, quite often it is twice what I have. My winrate is about 50% right now.
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
November 24 2008 21:10 GMT
#16
On November 25 2008 06:06 Mikilatov wrote:
Apparently a lot of people want to jump on you here. I don't.

APM is important only if you're using those actions wisely - and I think that's what you were trying to say, and I believe everyone would agree with that. Very interesting chart. =D


Agreed, high APM is impressive but even having low APM and still winning is still totally sexy
^-^
cujo2k
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada1044 Posts
November 24 2008 21:19 GMT
#17
true, high apm doesnt mean jack if your knowledge of the game is weak. but if your knowledge of the game is strong, then look out
THE ANSWER IS 288
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
November 24 2008 21:24 GMT
#18
On November 25 2008 05:05 Caller wrote:
[image loading]


having 3x more apm than your opponent doesn't mean jack when you don't know how to play the game

or rather how to deal with stop lurkers hahaha

i swear if i see another "omg how to improve apm" thread on here there will be serious repercussions.
I agree with you. But just to say, if you download...bwrepinfo, it will tell you their apm redundancy--- odds are your opponents was WELL over 50%. Most people spam their asses off thinking they are somehow getting better. I do not, and I am a zerg with 90-120 apm depending on the matchup, etc, and I just do just fine. I usually have better macro and multitasking than my 400 apm opponent. Lol.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-24 21:29:35
November 24 2008 21:28 GMT
#19
Common guys, don't misinterpret the statistics here...

1 game, or one player doesnt make any statistics. There are ofc good players with low apm,a dn the other way around.

But I am sure that if you look at the ICC rank (+win ratio) I am sure that you would find a strong corelation between high apm and high skill. I think all of you think so too. The average apm at B with >60% win ratio is for sure significantly higher than it is at D around 50% win ratio.

Does that imply that skill = apm?
No.

Does it mean that you get better by having higher apm?
No.

There are three possible explanations when you see a correlation between two things A and B:
1) A causes B.
2) B causes A.
3) Somehting else causes both A and B.

So in this case the alternatives are:
1) High rank causes high apm.
This is aparently not the case. You will not magically get +50 apm once you turn C+.

2) High apm causes high rank.
This is the conclusion that many people, incorrectly, makes from the correlation. It can be true, but it is not neccessarily true.

3) Something else causes both high apm and high icc ranking.
This is what I believe is the main factor. And this "something else" is just training. Training obviously makes you better at sc, that is higher rank, and in 95% at least, training will also make you more active, giving you higher apm.

Also, seeing that the posters on TL tend to be more theretical and strategically cunning than the average sc player, I think that TL players tend to be quite good for their apm, which explains the "I have 50 apm but beat Jaedong 4-1!!" poster that pop up every now and then.

I should probably make a proper OP in the BW forum, explaining this thing with statistics for people.... but too lazy. TT

EDIT: Congratulations on the win!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24805 Posts
November 24 2008 21:47 GMT
#20
On November 25 2008 06:28 Cascade wrote:
Common guys, don't misinterpret the statistics here...

1 game, or one player doesnt make any statistics. There are ofc good players with low apm,a dn the other way around.

But I am sure that if you look at the ICC rank (+win ratio) I am sure that you would find a strong corelation between high apm and high skill. I think all of you think so too. The average apm at B with >60% win ratio is for sure significantly higher than it is at D around 50% win ratio.

Does that imply that skill = apm?
No.

Does it mean that you get better by having higher apm?
No.

There are three possible explanations when you see a correlation between two things A and B:
1) A causes B.
2) B causes A.
3) Somehting else causes both A and B.

So in this case the alternatives are:
1) High rank causes high apm.
This is aparently not the case. You will not magically get +50 apm once you turn C+.

2) High apm causes high rank.
This is the conclusion that many people, incorrectly, makes from the correlation. It can be true, but it is not neccessarily true.

3) Something else causes both high apm and high icc ranking.
This is what I believe is the main factor. And this "something else" is just training. Training obviously makes you better at sc, that is higher rank, and in 95% at least, training will also make you more active, giving you higher apm.

Also, seeing that the posters on TL tend to be more theretical and strategically cunning than the average sc player, I think that TL players tend to be quite good for their apm, which explains the "I have 50 apm but beat Jaedong 4-1!!" poster that pop up every now and then.

I should probably make a proper OP in the BW forum, explaining this thing with statistics for people.... but too lazy. TT

EDIT: Congratulations on the win!

Nice post and rofl
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
1 2 Next All
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