EPT
Do you think Bisu can come back?
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5501 Posts
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Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
- Mind, MSL finals: One of Bisu's usual strengths in Starleague matches is his preparation/mindgames. Mind being an unknown at the time gives Bisu very little material to work with, removing a key element of his play. Combined with one build order loss and Bisu looking like he didn't take Mind seriously enough, he drops the series. Definitely he screwed up here, but this really isn't a catastrophic loss. - Savior, OSL Ro8: Lost to a brilliantly innovative build on Blue Storm, staged a ridiculous comeback in game 2, and dominated game 3. Bisu still looks awesome here. - Stork, OSL semis: Gets pretty badly dominated at PvP. Given that he's somewhat sick at the time, against a rival who's out for Bisu's blood, and the slightly randomish nature of PvP, I don't see this as the end of the world for Bisu by any means. - Upmagic, OSL 3rd place: Looked a little shaky but won the series while still sick. He was definitely out of form to an extent here, but how much of that was a result of his illness? Hard to say. - MSL Ro32: He lost to Jaedong. Given that Jaedong is currently the best player in the world and strongest at every ZvX matchup, I can't see how this is that huge a deal. Moreover his early game harassment was classic Bisu, frying Jaedong's Drones left and right. I really can't figure out how Jaedong came back, and from what I've read a lot of other people can't either. Any other zerg in the world probably would have lost that game quite badly. Against Yarnc, he basically lost because he screwed up and failed to watch his shuttle for 2 seconds, resulting in it suiciding into hydras with 2 Reavers and subsequently dying to a hydra allin. I'm pretty confident if he hadn't lost those reavers, Yarnc couldn't have done nearly as effective of an allin and Bisu would have had 2 more Reavers to defend it, so he could have held easily. That really just looks like a one time screwup costing a game, and in a Bo3 I think he would have mangled Yarnc. Basically I haven't seen anything yet to suggest to me that Bisu has had a huge drop in his play. At this point I fully expect him to qualify from his OSL group and wouldn't be surprised if he 3-0'd it. He's definitely not the best player in the world anymore, but that has more to do with Jaedong's play than Bisu's in my opinion. If he doesn't do well this OSL I'll have to reconsider, but right now Jaedong and Stork are the only people I would consider favorites against Bisu, and not by a lot. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
Ok yeah he has played superb lately, but I want him to actaully win something and then we can safely assume that he is. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 14 2008 12:46 MenzieK wrote: An OSL isnt enough?Ok yeah he has played superb lately, but I want him to actaully win something and then we can safely assume that he is. | ||
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Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
On January 14 2008 12:46 MenzieK wrote: Ok yeah he has played superb lately, but I want him to actaully win something and then we can safely assume that he is. Win something, like the OSL maybe?  He was already acknowledged as the best ZvT and ZvZ in the world before he won the OSL. After watching his games against Stork and Bisu, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to put him on best ZvP and best overall. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 14 2008 13:19 MenzieK wrote: what? July? Anytime? Boxer? Xellos? Nal_ra? Kingdom? Reach? ...No he has to win an MSL or another OSL, because we all know what happened to players in the past whom only won 1 OSL before as their first starleague win. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
"bonjwa streak"? what is this? and also, i guess OSL royal roader plus rookie of the year isn't enough for jaedong? OK, i guess you're right. he hasn't accomplished anything. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 14 2008 13:46 MenzieK wrote: mmm MVP 2006? Fresh?My point was that in the post, they're lots of fresh strong players who won an OSL got really far but failed win any more major titles. The only player i can name that failed after winning an OSL title was sync, but he still posted OSL appearances for a long time | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
YOU HAVE TO BELIEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
 Jaedong,  Stork and Bisu. <(oo;;?Or we could suddenly ninja  BoxeR into a macro machine.. maybe o.O? He's got some kick ass TvT these days.. ~ | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
Sorry to say almost no other toss beside Bisu can dominate a zerg or at least play PvZ in a way that doesn't look imbalanced for the toss. And as long as no other protoss user can truly match zergs and not win now and then and with cannon rushes or whatever no other toss will gain my respect like Bisu has. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On January 14 2008 15:18 Macavenger wrote: MenzieK, I'm really curious who you think is the best player in the world currently, if not Jaedong? Just ignore him, he is borderline retarded. | ||
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Play
Australia608 Posts
did he ever go anywhere?? he lost a few games, big deal. He is bisu, hes not going anywhere. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
On January 14 2008 21:08 fanatacist wrote: Just ignore him, he is borderline retarded. WTF was that attack for? I never said anything to you or anything to anyone else. I have never really made any stupid retarded posts, that was completely uncalled for. I don't think there really is a dominant player yet, and I'm quite skeptical of Jaedong. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On January 15 2008 02:50 MenzieK wrote: WTF was that attack for? I never said anything to you or anything to anyone else. I have never really made any stupid retarded posts, that was completely uncalled for. I don't think there really is a dominant player yet, and I'm quite skeptical of Jaedong. Everyone that has responded here has made some form of counter to your initial argument, and continued to dominate your position, and you continue speaking on general terms that prove nothing. Not uncalled for in the slightest. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
On January 15 2008 06:01 fanatacist wrote: Everyone that has responded here has made some form of counter to your initial argument, and continued to dominate your position, and you continue speaking on general terms that prove nothing. Not uncalled for in the slightest. Players who have won an OSL first have not really won MSL's or have been consistent in both leagues. People who have won MSL's first have managed to stay consistent in both leagues OSl and MSL. Look at Gorush, and how he did after his victory over Nada. Then there is GGplay, who won Daum OSL but was tossed away. Look at Anytime, he won an OSL, then had to do good 2 OSL's after to reach shinhan OSL 2 which he didn't even win. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
Also, who the hell cares what the previous trends were? The past results of people in a similar position do not dictate the results of Jaedong. The difference between him and say someone like Mind is that though Mind is a solid player with an MSL win, Jaedong not only has an OSL win but he has also been consistently dominant in 2 match-ups and has defeated Bisu in the third, whose specialty is PvZ. Sure you can say that it was more carelessness on Bisu's part, but it's still a fact that Jaedong is the most dominant player right now. Telling me to look at someone else's previous results is faulty logic - look at Jaedong's games NOW. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
On January 19 2008 05:18 fanatacist wrote: Uh, you realize you're 4 days slow on a retort? Also, who the hell cares what the previous trends were? The past results of people in a similar position do not dictate the results of Jaedong. The difference between him and say someone like Mind is that though Mind is a solid player with an MSL win, Jaedong not only has an OSL win but he has also been consistently dominant in 2 match-ups and has defeated Bisu in the third, whose specialty is PvZ. Sure you can say that it was more carelessness on Bisu's part, but it's still a fact that Jaedong is the most dominant player right now. Telling me to look at someone else's previous results is faulty logic - look at Jaedong's games NOW. Sorry, I have other stuff to do besides stay on teamliquid. Even if Jaedong was dominant in a few games he still has to show us more of himself. Past trends can tell us a lot about players performance. I still want to see more of Jaedong and see if he is really the uber dominant player everyone makes him to be. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On January 19 2008 05:35 MenzieK wrote: Sorry, I have other stuff to do besides stay on teamliquid. Even if Jaedong was dominant in a few games he still has to show us more of himself. Past trends can tell us a lot about players performance. I still want to see more of Jaedong and see if he is really the uber dominant player everyone makes him to be. It reflects in your ignorance to the argument at hand. A few games? So you are saying the August-November 12-0 ZvT streak (if I recall correctly, it was probably longer and bigger) is saying nothing? His current ZvZ being 75.68%? The fact that he defeated (many of them repeatedly) July, Savior, Bisu, Free, Canata, Yellow[Arnc], Stork, UpMagic, Light, Iris, Nada, GGPlay, Hwasin, XellOs, Mind, Sea, Boxer, Nal_rA, Luxury, and iloveoov in the past 6 or 7 months? You still want to see more, what the fuck? Perhaps you should spend a little more time on Teamliquid before you make idiotic arguments. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
Luxury beat Jaedong more then Jaedong beat him. I believe several members already mentioned before that Jaedong was trying to break Yellow's ZvT streak which he failed to do. I don't always have time to stay on teamliquid and i'm sure many well known members don't. Please stop trying to take crap out of your ass. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On January 19 2008 06:54 MenzieK wrote: WTF? Nada was slumping and not really playing to his fullest when he fought Jaedong in EVER OSL, same with Xellos. Yellow isn't known for his ZvZ, and July has beaten Jaedong, their score is 2:2, but really should be 2:1 since pro league should not always count. Savior has beaten Jaedong plenty of times before, and Jaedong in Savior when it was the worst time for him as he was slumping in the aftermath of the Bisu/FBH showdown that he had. Mind, stork, upmagic, GGplay, aren't known for their great play againts other zergs. Ra and oov aren't playing to their fullest either, Hwasin was focusing more on TvP just to beat Bisu, and Canata is a new boy. Jeadong just beat Bisu once in which Bisu did lose but did not lose to Jaedong like how Free lost to Savior several times. Luxury beat Jaedong more then Jaedong beat him. I believe several members already mentioned before that Jaedong was trying to break Yellow's ZvT streak which he failed to do. I don't always have time to stay on teamliquid and i'm sure many well known members don't. Please stop trying to take crap out of your ass. Lol, so just because some people are focusing more on one race than another for a specific opponent, it somehow makes Jaedong's overwhelming play less powerful? These people are PRO gamers, they don't drop a MU entirely just for the sake of one, that would be strategically stupid - the point I'm making is that they were still pro players, most of them with sufficient mastery vZ. I'm not talking just numbers (and if you had noticed, I mentioned in the past 6-7 months - in which time he had positive records on pretty much ALL of these players. Even if he didn't, taking wins from the greats is still something worth noting, especially over a half-year period.), I'm talking style and gameplay, making him truly dominant and not just a lucky winner as you make him out to be. The chances of Jaedong getting that far with EVERY player ignoring the vZ MU is zero, or even diminishing its importance. The idea that people would not start noticing HIM and try to improve their TvZ, for example, to face him is also zero. With Yellow, once again you try to bring up past events that have absolutely no importance in the present - just because someone has had a better % or streak than him, which there undoubtedly have been players of that caliber, doesn't mean that CURRENTLY he is not the number one player, dominating the scene in ZvT and ZvZ and recently gaining momentum in ZvP. A month ago, I would say Bisu was the most dominant. With Jaedong's recent growth in ZvP, that makes him best or near-best in two MUs, and a rising power in another. If that's not enough to consider him the most dominant player at this moment after these facts... I'd have to say you're just fighting out of pride and stupidity, and nothing else. Also, if I wasn't taking a crap out of my ass, where would I take it out of? You idiot. | ||
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MenzieK
United States123 Posts
On January 19 2008 08:32 fanatacist wrote: Lol, so just because some people are focusing more on one race than another for a specific opponent, it somehow makes Jaedong's overwhelming play less powerful? These people are PRO gamers, they don't drop a MU entirely just for the sake of one, that would be strategically stupid - the point I'm making is that they were still pro players, most of them with sufficient mastery vZ. I'm not talking just numbers (and if you had noticed, I mentioned in the past 6-7 months - in which time he had positive records on pretty much ALL of these players. Even if he didn't, taking wins from the greats is still something worth noting, especially over a half-year period.), I'm talking style and gameplay, making him truly dominant and not just a lucky winner as you make him out to be. The chances of Jaedong getting that far with EVERY player ignoring the vZ MU is zero, or even diminishing its importance. The idea that people would not start noticing HIM and try to improve their TvZ, for example, to face him is also zero. With Yellow, once again you try to bring up past events that have absolutely no importance in the present - just because someone has had a better % or streak than him, which there undoubtedly have been players of that caliber, doesn't mean that CURRENTLY he is not the number one player, dominating the scene in ZvT and ZvZ and recently gaining momentum in ZvP. A month ago, I would say Bisu was the most dominant. With Jaedong's recent growth in ZvP, that makes him best or near-best in two MUs, and a rising power in another. If that's not enough to consider him the most dominant player at this moment after these facts... I'd have to say you're just fighting out of pride and stupidity, and nothing else. Also, if I wasn't taking a crap out of my ass, where would I take it out of? You idiot. Out of your anus of course, and yes progamers do have weak matchups. Past events matter because it can tell us about player performance. I already stated that he didn't beat Bisu in a domineering fashion. The chances are not zero, players have won consistently without facing a certain matchup. Most of the players that he faced were not concentrating the matchup or were slumping heavily. July and luxury beat Jaedong, and I don't think he is as dominant as you make him out to be, and just look at his one game vs sheis. Face it, he still has to prove that he is a Savior. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On January 20 2008 06:16 MenzieK wrote: Out of your anus of course, and yes progamers do have weak matchups. Past events matter because it can tell us about player performance. I already stated that he disn't beat Bisu in a domineering fashion. The chances are not zero, players have won consistently without facing a certain matchup. Most of the players that he faced were not concentrating the matchup or were slumping heavily. July and luxury beat Jaedong, and I don't think he is as dominant as you make him out to be, and just look at his one game vs sheis. Face it, he still has to prove that he is a Savior. Look through all of my posts and find one place where I say he is bonjwa or comparable to Savior. As far as I recall, I never said either of those things. I said he is the most dominant player right now - that doesn't mean he is bonjwa-oov-80+%-win scary. The fact that he is the most dominant is just that - a fact. He's not eons ahead of Bisu, but he is definitely above him right now, at least. And that's all I've been saying. | ||
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