(note: this will be written as a ramble, I am still processing these events) Dear Teamliquid-Users,
Today, I attended an Anti White Nationalists rally at the state capital in Sacramento. Eighty four differen't skinhead groups were supposed to come and hold a large coalition rally under the stewardship of a relatively up and comming White Nationalist (the guy who yelled or pushed a black lady at a Trump rally).
That said, I live in an area with the most diverse population and the highest population of LGBTS in the world (Downtown Sacramento).
So, it isn't a stretch for me to go out and protest against Nazi's or crazy Christians or what have you when they come to my back yard.
I wear a shirt with a slogan like "Respect existence or expect resistence", I put on some sun glasses and I go and try and engage and or out wit in a public way my idealogical opposites. I am a shy, small, introvert so the entire "mob shouting bullying thing" has always been at odds with my personal experience....
I think most of you would agree that someone outnumbering you and screaming at you is nothing short of bullying and it does not help either side change their minds. I go to protests to provide contrast. These are my ideas and my aspect, These are your ideas and your aspect. Who has the NeverQuit mode on today? That is my world.
Today in Sacramento, California we made Heros out of White Supremists.
Out of 250~ protests about 50 people were wearing solid black and were members of a group called AntiFas and/or Black Flag.
These people did not come to the capital to protest, they came to exact frontier justice on Nazi's and the Police set up the Nazi's to get beaten.
I got there around 10:45am, the rally was scheduled for 12-2 when they had a permit to rally/speak so I go there early to try and figure out how I was going to engage in this protest.
Within 15 minutes of me getting there, a group of 15 people with spiked sticks chased a Nazis off the grounds and it took rubber bullets to turn them around.
The media is lying. Everyone is saying there were 30 Nazi's. Bullshit. There was 1 group of 4, 1 group of 2 with a short guy and a guy who needed a wheel chair and another group of 2 which was a father and his teenage son.
The Police provided no escort to the steps of the Capital. Depsite knowing for weeks that hundreds of counter protests were coming. They allowed crowds to rush, beat and assault the Nazi's sometimes in 20 or 30 feet of 20 or 30 of them in riot gear and masks.
My friend who is a writer for wounded warriors project or something like it (I don't really know) who is a large white guy was fucking surrounded and yelled at and the assholes were screaming at him and throwing water until he told them he knew me and the he had interviewed me. This footage is on youtube it is heart breaking.
(my name is Gary)
I listened and watched and at times tried to stop groups of people who were bragging about having the "blood of a nazi" on there spike covered stick (really, a stick covered in punk-rock/heavy-metal spikes).
At the same rally, a black member of the crowd was harrassing white protestors who were on the same side (the same asshat started talking about friends of gays going to die for defying the word of god)
I saw at a range of 10 yards or so the rumble that resulted in the 3 people stabbed that made the news.
3or4 guys were attacked by 60 people with spikes and sticks and bricks and used pocket knives to defend themselves. =(
Then 30 minutes later, I saw 2 Nazi's walk by me and I froze. They were walking, so far unseen, one a large man weezing audibly from regular walking and another smaller guy (my size like 5'4-5'6) pushing his wheel chair. I held my breath.
"Fuck you, you fucking Nazi's"
They were swarmed by 50 or more people, beaten, kicked, bricked, hit with bottles until the Police came, they used the horses to seperate the two from the many.
The crowd started throwing and hitting the horses, officers and nazi's with chunks of brick, all types of shit...
Today by attending an Anti-Fasist protest, I became a facist. Today, I helped take the right of speech away from people.
It is easy to be against White Nationalists and Nazi's. Who isn't? If you aren't, you are pretty dumb. But, if someone wants to follow the law, and use public land to do nothing more then speak it is anti-liberal, anti-human and anti-intellectual to use brute force to shut them down.
Instead of embarrassing them by outnumbing them dozens to one at their own damn rally, we were just bullies.
All I can think of is ... What if this was the south and they were Blacks? What if they were Gays in Christian country or Jewish in Germany... The mob whether right or wrong must NEVER be allowed to stifle voices (even voices of hate) by force. It is a line of which you cannot uncross.
I am very sad. This topic deserves coherant writing and proof reading but I just wanted to get this out into the ether so I could watch John Oliver in peace.
Its really sad this kind of thing developed, mob violence has absolutely no place in a free country and its unfortunate that this election season seems to be devolving into this type of violence. Politics should be about logic, concise thought, and coherent argument, yet it seems our modern politics revolves around media management, image, and emotional responses.
Its the same around here. Nazis and AntiFas beat each other up regularily. Its like gang violence but with way more media attention. The reason is simple: People like to fuck other people up. Its not relevant to have a good reason or what your ideology is. They just like to hurt others. On both sides. On all sides.
What gets to me the most is the self-rightousness of these people. How they are being horrible and believe they are doing is a just and great thing. If there'd be a Nazi rally in my town, I'd be among the protestors, you could count on that. But people who group up around bystanders to harass them or even worse use violence..I can only feel disgust. You'd think that the idiology that brings them to the street to stand up against right wing extremists makes them if not immune, then at the very least sensible for the problematics of mob "justice". But it seems that the mechanics are just the same. Pick a scapegoat and show your physical or verbal power, backed by the group. And the enjoyment on their face and in their voices. They love giving shit to your friend and feel really good about it.
I dont understand how these people think they are doing a good thing and that harm will not come from this.
Personally I think the best way to deal with them is to ignore them anyway. When they have like you said 8 people, just dont give them the time of day. They want the attention. And now people have given them nation wide media coverage (if not worldwide) and something to rally behind.
Sitting on that high horse gives people the idea that they're literally above the law and can do whatever the fuck they want. Let's round up a posse and hang randoms yeeeehaaaaaaa
You're absolutely right, beating the shit out of people with nailbats/bricks and stabbing them is NOT a good way to convince them and turn them to your side, no matter how "morally superior" one's stance is, you actually get the totally opposite effect.
On June 27 2016 16:16 AttackZerg wrote: The media is lying. Everyone is saying there were 30 Nazi's. Bullshit. There was 1 group of 4, 1 group of 2 with a short guy and a guy who needed a wheel chair and another group of 2 which was a father and his teenage son.
but the media never lies. if a 6'3" guy in a $3000 suit with a baritone voice says something it must be true.
imagine being so brainwashed that you think actively inciting violence against a minuscule fringe political party who obtained legal permits from the local government to demonstrate in public is a heroic feat.
then imagine being so brainwashed you admit to conducting terrorism on tape so brazenly and thinking that was a good idea because you could label them as "nazis" and attacking anyone who are "nazis" is a noble idea because they're "nazis" !
Many of these antifas are anarchists or communist supporters, and just advocate for a different kind of totalitarianism. Rule by fear is still rule by fear.
On June 28 2016 03:08 ninazerg wrote: Many of these antifas are anarchists or communist supporters, and just advocate for a different kind of totalitarianism. Rule by fear is still rule by fear.
you are wrong about anarchism being a kind of totalitarianism.
On June 28 2016 08:58 Mindcrime wrote: Should we still recommend reasoned, non-violent debate as the desired course of action if Nazis were to come to power?
and i thought my previous post would be enough to educate the aspies on here
On June 28 2016 08:58 Mindcrime wrote: Should we still recommend reasoned, non-violent debate as the desired course of action if Nazis were to come to power?
and i thought my previous post would be enough to educate the aspies on here
On June 28 2016 08:58 Mindcrime wrote: Should we still recommend reasoned, non-violent debate as the desired course of action if Nazis were to come to power?
and i thought my previous post would be enough to educate the aspies on here
You didn't answer the question.
first off, the Nazs died off during WW2. Secondly, any current group that actually identifies as neo nazis are a. either a fringe political group, or b. a honeypot -- their numbers are too low to really make any dent. Fourth, imagine being so triggered by other people's opinions that them wanting to advance traditional ideas and instill pride for one's homelands is Nazism.
Lastly, imagine being so triggered that one has to make a laughable conjecture that the nazis will come into power again in this modern, liberal society.
Then, note that attacking a fringe group of LARPers at a demonstration that they legally applied for with the local government is quite childish:
1. you legitimatize their radical views by engaging with them violently. Getting stabbed is a sure fire way to affirm one's beliefs that he is fighting for a just cause.
2. If you have to resort to violence to win an argument or to silence someone, then aren't you just a sore loser who couldn't win fair and square? If you want to beat these guys, just laugh at them and leave them alone. Do recall that it was only like 20 attendees at most to the public gathering.
On June 28 2016 11:18 Mindcrime wrote: With millions of people voting for strongmen is modern, politically powerful nazism really that unfathomable?
But that's not really the point of my original question; when, if ever, does political violence become acceptable?
once again you're conflating populist national movements as nazism, which is false. Do you even know what Nazism was, or what the national socialist platform (NSDAP) they ran on is? because right now, you're throwing a label out for the sake of virtue signaling -- "Oh look, people want to reclaim their national identity and have politics that strengthens the nation state! NAZISM REEEEE!"
I don't have a good answer for you original question because each politic ideology have their owns views on when violence comes into play; It's subjective to your views. The best response I can give is understand what views you have and understand views of other platforms.
You seem to be under the impression that the Nazis ran and won on a platform that included death camps. They didn't, but the holocaust happened regardless.
I would like to think that we could agree that violent resistance becomes acceptable some time before ethnic cleansing becomes a real thing.
On June 28 2016 12:12 Mindcrime wrote: You seem to be under the impression that the Nazis ran and won on a platform that included death camps. They didn't, but the holocaust happened regardless.
I would like to think that we could agree that violent resistance becomes acceptable some time before ethnic cleansing becomes a real thing.
Of course death camps weren't part of the platform. The Nazis ran a brutal political campaign to gain majority power in the german parliament by brownshirting the living fuck out of their opposition rallies and doing massive ground game with fliers, etc. Sounds quite familiar to the current antifa groups' attacks of right wing rallies. Makes one think.
violent resistance will always happen when ethnic cleansing is in place. this i agree with. The german people were convinced that their Volk would die out, and thus reacted accordingly to preserve themselves. Brilliant propaganda from Hitler and co, I have to say.
On June 28 2016 12:12 Mindcrime wrote: You seem to be under the impression that the Nazis ran and won on a platform that included death camps. They didn't, but the holocaust happened regardless.
I would like to think that we could agree that violent resistance becomes acceptable some time before ethnic cleansing becomes a real thing.
Killing people with opposing political views sounds like something...
...someone bad would do.
That being said, it seems more likely that the next form of dictatorship will use the fear of a common enemy, whether it be Nazis, communists, teh Jewz, potato farmers, etc., and declare adamantly that this enemy must be eliminated in order to procure the safety of our families and friends, as this enemy is coming to kill us. This is exactly the kind of scenario by which the Patriot Act and the NDAA were passed into law.
On June 28 2016 08:58 Mindcrime wrote: Should we still recommend reasoned, non-violent debate as the desired course of action if Nazis were to come to power?
If nazi's came to power - I would engage in violence. That is why it is so important to me to protest in anyway that I can against them and like minded groups, because if I don't and they come to power - I don't think I could move from 0-60, peace to war in a day or in a month. I stand against that shit all along the way.
Yesterday, all I did was help create an intenational scene that neo-nazi's are calling their modern thermopylae. 8(
(P.s thanks for the comments and understanding - really was a bum event.)
On June 28 2016 08:58 Mindcrime wrote: Should we still recommend reasoned, non-violent debate as the desired course of action if Nazis were to come to power?
If nazi's came to power - I would engage in violence. That is why it is so important to me to protest in anyway that I can against them and like minded groups, because if I don't and they come to power - I don't think I could move from 0-60, peace to war in a day or in a month. I stand against that shit all along the way.
Yesterday, all I did was help create an intenational scene that neo-nazi's are calling their modern thermopylae. 8(
(P.s thanks for the comments and understanding - really was a bum event.)
Why do you think it would be so hard to move from 0-60. Long shot hypothetical. North Korea some how nukes most of our armed force bases successfully invade the US and put into place a regime that they currently have. You dont think you could go from 0-60 then?
Of course you could. I think it is the same thing. The chances of neo-nazi's coming to power if you dont give them the time of day is I would say about the same. If either of these things happend I resort to violence. But that doesnt mean I am going to give these guys the attention that they want.
Unsurprising. ANTIFA makes my blood boil - much worse than the people they protest against.
I can't help but think the KKK in 2016 is a bunch of geriatrics who have no influence and have an "old boys get together", and neo-nazi rallies just outcasts - the vast majority that go to rallies probably wouldn't show their faces if they were known to commit hate-crimes and were wanted for it. Not to say I condone it.
Yet, when I see antifa, all I see is belligerence and unprovoked violence. Much, much much worse, and much much more dangerous because of media and social condemnation against racial nationalism. Because of this, it has the oxygen to grow and actually become a serious problem, whereas I can't believe a white supremacist group in the US has the power to expand to any dangerous level.
The biggest irony of all is those so "anti-nazi" are using the same suppression tactics against free-speech and other political ideologies
It's been regurgitated quite frequently recently in context of these riots, but it really does make you think about it:
Aldous Huxley wrote: The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' — this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats.
Why do you think it would be so hard to move from 0-60. Long shot hypothetical. North Korea some how nukes most of our armed force bases successfully invade the US and put into place a regime that they currently have. You dont think you could go from 0-60 then?
The person who was attacked and stabbed 20 times by skinheads is one of my older brothers. It happend when I was 12-13. As a white person who's family was destroyed and fell apart as a result of their hate, I can't imagine what is it like being a member of a 'class' that they deem inferior.
I think these groups are domestic terrorists (neo-nazi's, kkk, church of the creater, golden gate skins, all those red laced losers) and my fear of them may be irrational.
EPT
