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It's been a long while since my last blog, about 1 year ago, and ill continue from there.
introduction
the last blog left at a point where I was severely demotivated to do any mapping at all, Blizzard still fully controled what gets played in any form, the only way to get a map played (TLMC) once again proved to be a joke, and then there was the closure of the map of the month.
picking things up again
this blog starts with a long period of silence and working behind the scenes,
begining with a 3month period of complete inactivity.
with the near complete silence within the scene, I wanted to try something new, a sort of last effort.
The concept was rather simple, with 3 main ingredients.
- a periodical highlight on maps similair to MotM, but less frequent to have more of a spike needed to grab attention.
- a new voting system, in the form of an improved version that I used for shoutcraft clan wars.
- an attitude to get the max out of as little effort as possible
there were some slight startup difficulties, but outside of that it seemed to work rather well, and the map scene felt a bit more alive again, and it was nice to have people cooperating again.
and so the map power rank was born, (which has since discontinued).
for more info: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/488549-quarterly-map-power-rank
SMA pt1
the fact that people were cooperating somewhat more actively gave the circumstances under which I could put something up that I’ve tried to for a long time, a single organization that houses mapmakers, making an easy point and hub of map related communication that is more easy to notice, namely in the form of SMA (short for Starcraft Mapmaking Association).
the idea has always been somewhat controversial within the mapping scene, as quite some considered it useless and a waste of effort, and feared it would form an elite group and would exclude to many mapmakers.
While I understand those complaints, I’ve always tried to avoid either those and pushed it solely as a branding tool to ease up contact with the mapmaking scene.
to help push SMA out a bit, I decided to finish up an old work in progress map to help with SMA promotion, but that was really it, being still somewhat attached to the idea of inactive status.
avex pt1
as the mapping scene went through its slow changes over time as usual, and the SMA begun to pick up momentum, one event that has a rather lasting twist popped up.
during this time, I met avex through the starbow community and his work on maps there.
with SMA starting up, I was considering accepting him into it, though out of some discussion with other members and mappers, the conclusion was that it was not really suitable to have someone whos work is primarily starbow maps on SMA, but that he would be invited to the other main discussion channel among mappers, which has no SMA bussiness stuff.
In his time there he didn’t make the best of reputations for himself, he was always rather eager to join in on any conversation, which on it’s own isn’t a problem, but as he had a slightly arrogant attitude, and talked quite frequently, not everyone appreciated that as much, especially other mappers with their own attitudes, along with him having to deal with the aspect of being relatively new.
This eventually broke out in to one big discussion ending with avex leaving the chat, and thus ending the first avex related chapter.
SMA pt2
one of the earlier results of the SMA was getting to cooperate with the iberian starcraft series, a regional tournament that wanted to have different maps to play on.
while this was a great opportunity, something came along.
as we were working on assembling a map pool, it turned out that, to my surprise, kantuva had taken up single person contact, and while it is in native tounge, I still find it fairly odd that he would run communication behind our back.
what was spoken about was that they would not fully use an SMA provided map pool, but rather use a mix of SMA and ladder maps, and as im somewhat biased towards community made maps I found that slightly sad, but at the same time I was still satisfied that we had an opportunity for community maps somewhere.
another thing we attempted during this time, is if we could have community made maps in other online cups, and we’ve tried to contact BasetradeTV but sadly without response.
TLMC
This part goes back in time a bit, as this was mostly a taboo.
The story starts at team liquid map contest 4, which was the first time TLMC behaved in quite oddly, and is by most still considered the worst TLMC.
The main thing that stood out in this TLMC was the quality of maps, whilst catallena, and both kantuva’s maps were good, there was an incredibly huge contract betweens those 3 and the remaining 2 finalists, namely Deadwing and Biome, the later even winning the contest.
I could write pages on why those 2 were terrible, but thats not for now.
A side thing that occured here, was that psione, who had just weeks earlier joined, left the map chat because of the smack talk on him, mostly by IeZaeL and me, as we took it a bit more heavy than others I gues.
I won’t speak for IeZaeL, though his motivation is probably close to mine, but the reason I was so pissed off was the way Blizzard handled the whole situation, the eventual maps added were: Catallena, Deadwing, Foxtrot and Nimbus.
the adition of Catallena was no problem, but I took major offence to a map like deadwing not only getting high in tlmc, but continuing to make it to ladder as well, it’s introduction to the ladder came with many troubles as well, they used a version with poorer aesthetics than a version that was updated in the meantime, and there were many spots on the map that could be cliff dropped, and this was clearly not intentional by Blizzard as it was hotfixed rather swiftly.
Foxtrot had only a minor problem, being the lighting, no real big issue here but a bit odd that they didn’t correct it before ladder.
Nimbus again had some unchecked problems, that being that the map uploaded to ladder was a version with only close spawns enabled, something that was leftover from testing.
This all resulted in the impression that Blizzard does not test their maps at all, as even opening the map once would have spotted most of these things.
This was enough reason for me (and probably IeZaeL too) to mock them for their works on this all.
Fast forward quite a bit, there is TLMC5,
Once again some interesting picks slip through, this time in the form of Timberwolf by lorestarcraft, and Adun’s shrine by Caevrane.
This effectively was salt on the wound that was TLMC4, and again resulted in many frowny faces, this in particular was reason for a lengthy absence from me, only briefly returning for TLMC6.
And that is also what I’ll discuss next, TLMC6, which was a quite a pandemonium towards the end.
At first not much more was expected than TLMC5, especialy given how shortly it followed after the previous, the effects weren’t anywhere near close.
The moment results came in there were quite some oddities, almost all maps but 2, had backdoor entrances to either the main or natural, this instantly set off the alerts amongst most, and it wasn’t long before a leak came out that Blizzard was heavily involved in this TLMC.
This ofcourse resulted in an outrage, varying from lightly to heavy from person to person.
Personally I took this rather hard, and in this moment spread the leak forward, which perhaps wasn’t the brightest idea, but hindsight is 20/20.
Shortly after doing this, I was approached rather swiftly by an upset Plexa, speaking of “unspeakable damage to the mapmaking scene”, This got me even more pissed off since I had little information to work with at the time, and get hit by something I had no idea off, though I did consider removing the further spread of the leak, which again may have been an error, as after all this the source of my leak was deleted as well, and I had no backups or evidence that any of this happend save for the witness experiences of me and others.
continuing onwards, this whole situation left me in massive rage, and the ongoing events didn’t help much.
as this wasn’t the only leak that came around, but suddenly I get to hear theres been some secret talks with Blizzard again, to this day I still have no idea what was discussed, but found id rather infuriating that I was left out on even the information of its existence, especialy given the fresh event of TLMC6.
adding to that there was a lot of flack comming from the community about the maps, which added even more onto my frustration as the mapping scene largely took hits for actions of others, which is something that can very easily get me really upset.
For a long time have I been jumping from sadness to anger back and forth when it came to map related struggles, but this time was different, ever since this all I’m left with a constant bitterness, most of the time I’m rather calm and sad about it all, but occasionaly jump to 100, and that will especialy be apparent in the remainder of this blog.
Enter next is the long period of silence that started this blog.
After the events mentioned in the blog prior to the TLMC topic, another period of silence followed, interupted by the next topic.
Avex part 2
In the meantime Avex had returned to the map chat, his attitude being much more tolerable amongst everyone, however, this did not exclude him from leaving the chat again.
This time the nature lied in that Avex would often be the victim of occasional jokes, as he was still the newest and considered least experienced, which made him a rather easy target.
Ofcourse we never really wanted to push him out, and we probably would have stopped this behaviour if he showed earlier notice on this, but instead it all came in a single burst calling us out on elitism, which I personally found a rather harsh interpretation of it all.
It wasn’t to much later untill Avex succes in mapmaking jumped, getting his maps played occasionaly in online cups, particulary by BasetradeTV.
The fact that it was BasetradeTV out of all locations where his succes caught me and some others rather off-guard, as we’ve attempted contact with BTTV before but were greeted with silence.
In ongoing discussions on reddit, when questioned on his succes, responses off Avex included that we were not trying hard enough to advertise ourselves, and several times were hit with slander off “being elitist”.
Both were things that pissed me off quite a bit, I’ve never really felt elitist, especially given that I was excluded from quite some things, if anything I felt the opposite.
The other point was no exception to that, while I took a momentarily break from making maps following TLMC5&6, I have always, and even in my moments of inactivity, been heavy on trying to catch publicity for maps of both others and my own.
Suggestions from Avex included posting on reddit more, which I found rather odd given how frequently I posted about mapmaking related stuff and my own works on reddit.
Then there was also that I basically founded the whole of the map power rank and the SMA, specificly for promoting the mapping scene and its works.
Again, something that left me quite frustrated.
This lasted in small cheap shots in discussions on reddit, but mostly a small period of silence again.
Pengwin
It wasn’t long until another event popped up, which was Pengwin organizing a small tournament using community maps, this sounds rather amazing at first, but the contents of the situation were rather unexpected.
The announcement was rather sudden, a complete tournament out of nowhere using community maps seemed odd, and the list of which maps were used weren’t any different, including Kantuva, Avex and Albatross
Now two things really stand out here to me, Kantuva was again leaving me out on information on stuff, which was starting to become rather annoying at this point, though there was little time for him to do so, but more importantly, a completely unheard of name popped up, Albatross.
The fact that a name that is completely unheard of within the mapping scene out of nowhere kicks it as far as getting maps into a tournament is unthinkable and set of all kind of alarms.
This happening, was a major insult to anyone who had been working their ass off within, or for mapmaking, the fact that all work that was ever put out was ignored for someone entirely unheard of is still something I fail to grasp.
Blizzard map entry
Something that came slightly unexpected a bit later was the Blizzard LotV map submission post, which explicitly avoided the name “contest”, because hey, we want to make sure those damned mapmakers get nothing, not that I’m doing this for anything other than joy of creative expression, but a gesture would’ve been nice.
What made this content quite unusual was the complete ban on standard maps, this not only being rather odd, but also confusing, as standard is a rather undefined term, and what is a standard map can be completely arbitrary.
The results of this contest were also rather dissapointing, not as much refering to the choices of maps as much as the fact that Blizzard went out of the way to make 2 maps themselves and dismiss community made ones, essentialy giving off a “fuck you”
Another thing that deeply concerns me, is that Blizzard never looked at the images on some entries, Hopefully this means that they just didn’t look at images at all, rather than the entries in their entirety.
SC2Improve
Somewhat dissapointed in Blizzard, my hope was swiftly relighted when pointed to the TL thread for the SC2Improve UK&Ireland league, which had oppened up its map pool for community map submissions.
the eventual results would only get better, opting to not just take 2 maps as was announced, but 3 community made maps even.
I’ve been following every game so far and it seems like they’re all performing well, making for fun games, which is very peace of mind giving.
IeZaeL
quite briefly, but one of the more recent events that deserves some attention, is the retirement of IeZaeL.
While he has been the center of some controversy regarding copying works of others, I always found him a respectable mapmaker, coming up with plenty of cool things on his own, as well as his amazing aesthetic work.
With that I’ve covered most of the more important stuff, there were some more minor drama things, but I CBA writing about that.
 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Yo meavis you say some dumb shit sometimes but I still respect you as a mapper. The one thing you haven't talked about in your post here is how your own map making skill has grown over time with some of your recent maps being at the very highest level (in my eyes at least). One day we'll get a sensible map pool system, when that day comes I hope you're still around making maps.
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I'm not a smart man.
As for improving, sorta yes, but also no.
I'm unsure where you even get it from as the only maps I finished during this time were: Verdict day, Dahlgur Oasis, Red rumbler and Ulysses.
Also I still consider myself far from the highest level, the only thing I really have going that my maps are usually very technically correct for solid gameplay, but fail to deliver in any other area such as entertainment value, or innovation.
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I've been feeling similar feelings to you, although I've been less involved in the nitty-gritty stuff. If I ever make another map it will be after I divorce my feelings for SC2 from my feelings about the maps. I still enjoy the act of tinkering in the editor, and if I get another map going I'm sure I'll enjoy it, but historically my passion for SC2 has been tied to my passion for maps, and vice-versa, and I realize that's doing me no favors these days.
There's still D3, Hearthstone and Overwatch keeping me occupied, so while there is the one miss, Blizzard is still mostly hits for me. I would like to enjoy SC2 again though.
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On May 09 2016 03:57 Meavis wrote:
The announcement was rather sudden, a complete tournament out of nowhere using community maps seemed odd, and the list of which maps were used weren’t any different, including Kantuva, Avex and Albatross
Now two things really stand out here to me, Kantuva was again leaving me out on information on stuff, which was starting to become rather annoying at this point, though there was little time for him to do so, but more importantly, a completely unheard of name popped up, Albatross.
Okay so obviously as anybody who has seen our interactions can tell, we don't get along. Just to explain for the 749th time for anybody who missed this back then:
I decided to run a tournament for fun. I put my own money into it. I wanted to have community maps. I picked community maps that I liked and had been exposed to. I said many times that this was a test run, that if it went well I'd like to look into opening submissions for future iterations. Instead, numerous people, including yourself, decided to make a giant drama out of nothing and shit on me every chance you got. You and the rest of those people are the main reason that I have yet to make another tournament. I loved the event. The players had fun. Viewership was good. But damn, you people made it look like it would be nowhere near the effort to work with you for the future.
This has also been explained elsewhere, but since Meavis decided to not actually include my reasoning for the picks since apparently all he wants to do is flame people:
Kantuva is a very respected mapper who often publishes his work on Reddit and makes cool, unique maps. As such, I wanted to include his maps.
Albatross helped me come up with the tournament idea in the first place, and I and some of the players playing in the event had been involved in testing her maps, and we liked them.
Avex had also been making a name for himself as well, Basetrade was using one of his maps, and he had also been pushing his maps publicly. And I liked them.
So yeah
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On May 12 2016 15:15 PengWin_SC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2016 03:57 Meavis wrote:
The announcement was rather sudden, a complete tournament out of nowhere using community maps seemed odd, and the list of which maps were used weren’t any different, including Kantuva, Avex and Albatross
Now two things really stand out here to me, Kantuva was again leaving me out on information on stuff, which was starting to become rather annoying at this point, though there was little time for him to do so, but more importantly, a completely unheard of name popped up, Albatross.
Okay so obviously as anybody who has seen our interactions can tell, we don't get along.
Doesn't have to be like that.
Just to explain for the 749th time for anybody who missed this back then:
I decided to run a tournament for fun. I put my own money into it. I wanted to have community maps. I picked community maps that I liked and had been exposed to. I said many times that this was a test run, that if it went well I'd like to look into opening submissions for future iterations. Instead, numerous people, including yourself, decided to make a giant drama out of nothing and shit on me every chance you got. You and the rest of those people are the main reason that I have yet to make another tournament. I loved the event. The players had fun. Viewership was good. But damn, you people made it look like it would be nowhere near the effort to work with you for the future.
This has also been explained elsewhere, but since Meavis decided to not actually include my reasoning for the picks since apparently all he wants to do is flame people:
Yeah, how dare someone write this as if he experienced it in the moment, as if it was a blog.
Again, it's cool that you decided to do something like this, but the bluntness that it came with was quite astounding.
And obviously I just want to flame people, no way someone could legitimately get frustrated over things he puts fuck tons of hours in to.
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On May 09 2016 03:57 Meavis wrote:
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The fact that a name that is completely unheard of within the mapping scene out of nowhere kicks it as far as getting maps into a tournament is unthinkable and set of all kind of alarms.
This happening, was a major insult to anyone who had been working their ass off within, or for mapmaking, the fact that all work that was ever put out was ignored for someone entirely unheard of is still something I fail to grasp.
...
I get that you felt that way but you may want to work on your attitude here. New blood is important to any scene. Otherwise you'll have the next "old boys' club" going that everybody and their mother is so upset about.
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On May 13 2016 05:28 Meavis wrote:
Yeah, how dare someone write this as if he experienced it in the moment, as if it was a blog.
Again, it's cool that you decided to do something like this, but the bluntness that it came with was quite astounding.
And obviously I just want to flame people, no way someone could legitimately get frustrated over things he puts fuck tons of hours in to.
Man, I've literally never seen you post something positive. Every time I see you comment on something it's either whining, bitching about how the entire world is against you or flaming people for not doing exactly what you want them to do. The reason I say you're just flaming around is that, for my section in particular since I know that bit the best, I've literally given explanations at least a dozen times on all of the shit that happened and you still act like I've never addressed the issue once.
Of course I can understand frustration. Hell, we all play one of the most frustrating games in the world, but it's how you deal with the frustration. If there's one thing people should learn from SC2 it's that when things don't go your way you should analyse why and not just whine about the surrounding circumstances.
It honestly feels like some of you guys from the map cave are just trying so hard to push this "woe is me" narrative that everybody hates you and nobody will ever appreciate your work and you're all just being blocked, but nobody is willing to analyse why. I've told Kantuva specifically as well as a couple other mappers that I am more than happy to set up players to test maps that any of you guys make, to help figure out balance and kinks, and in the months since LFM, literally not a single person other than Alba and Avex, who already talked to me prior, have asked for anything. You guys don't seem interested in improving your methods, and frankly it shows.
I don't bear any ill will to any of the guys in the map cave, and my offer still stands, but from my perspective, it really looks like you guys don't want to change anything and are content to just keep making the same mistakes and publicly whining about it when it doesnt go your way.
Sorry if this seems aggressive, but it's damn frustrating to see this kind of an attitude, and it's damn frustrating to still have shit thrown in my face months after this (successful) event despite the fact that I've offered to do everything I can, and people are still not happy with it.
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Oh Meavis- For someone who spammed puke emoji's in a group I'm in, during my maps being played on LF, as well as just shouting how 'misused' the tile sets were- without ever directly addressing me, or offering your 'expertise', or even a mention of anything beyond aesthetic bullshit- I really wonder how you expect anyone to show you decency or respect your opinion in the design realm.
In the architecture world- which I thought held some heavy egos- we would actually do something called pin-ups and critiques. Every student would have to analyze another colleagues design, address potential issues on a basic design level, any personal design aesthetic or input they feel is appropriate, and if they disagreed with any direction in the student's design would only be respected if they gave a valid reason as to why it is a poor choice, and offered a better one, or possible tweak to fix the current issue.
So for me to entertain emojis and design critiques that never goes deeper than "The map is bad" is a waste of my time. To not acknowledge your colleagues skills, successes and help them to assess possible design strategies they can refine for the future, is amazingly self-defeating. I can highly bet that besides perhaps Kantuva, none of you congratulated Avex on his design being chosen. I did, and I did this even though I personally dislike the spacial relationships and nuanced terrain in said map. Avex also knows this is how I feel about the map, and I personally prefer his other work in comparison. Avex and I butted egos at the beginning (massively influenced by the TL map community) which I can only assume was to kill two birds with one stone so you can clutch to the egos you all have for a while longer. I'm sure if I told Avex: 'Invader sucks.' and left it at that he'd think I'm a cunt- and rightfully so. Instead I told him, I'm not a fan because of x, y and z, because x, y and z. We respect each other because of this. I didn't tell him he 'did it wrong' or it 'should be this way' like I'm a design God from above. Any good designer knows that any piece of work rarely, if ever, ends at a point of full 'completion'. For a group of people who claim to be so passionate, professional, and high-level map designers- you all generally sound disgustingly entitled. In my education, many students would receive the highest marks- few would be archived into a publication that was released every semester. The kids who cried about never being in it, never congratulated others upon receiving the opportunity were only interested in getting attention and their ego- not design. Hundreds of us spent more hours on those designs than you've put into every map you've ever made. Our school didn't 'owe' us recognition- we earned it.
So my prediction will be based on the social dynamic of the community you childishly stormed out of weeks ago- after they turned on you like a pack of rabid dogs- is that the top finalists of the TLMC will be none other than the loudest ones in the group. You can spend your life designing- expecting X hours to = X money/attention/recognition is the most ignorant design standpoint I've ever heard. I've seen valuable designs that have taken days, and others than have taken years. Time doesn't equal skill or quality.
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 long live the cavemen
ps: still no dream pool advertised by sma / no second event from ping win / tlmc7 will be self serving useless
wow, 5 years in and nothing has changed in this glorious sub forum.. oh yes something did..
let me tell you why your map sucks
semantics matter
pps:
On May 13 2016 06:57 AlbatrossX3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Oh Meavis- For someone who spammed puke emoji's in a group I'm in, during my maps being played on LF, as well as just shouting how 'misused' the tile sets were- without ever directly addressing me, or offering your 'expertise', or even a mention of anything beyond aesthetic bullshit- I really wonder how you expect anyone to show you decency or respect your opinion in the design realm.
In the architecture world- which I thought held some heavy egos- we would actually do something called pin-ups and critiques. Every student would have to analyze another colleagues design, address potential issues on a basic design level, any personal design aesthetic or input they feel is appropriate, and if they disagreed with any direction in the student's design would only be respected if they gave a valid reason as to why it is a poor choice, and offered a better one, or possible tweak to fix the current issue.
So for me to entertain emojis and design critiques that never goes deeper than "The map is bad" is a waste of my time. To not acknowledge your colleagues skills, successes and help them to assess possible design strategies they can refine for the future, is amazingly self-defeating. I can highly bet that besides perhaps Kantuva, none of you congratulated Avex on his design being chosen. I did, and I did this even though I personally dislike the spacial relationships and nuanced terrain in said map. Avex also knows this is how I feel about the map, and I personally prefer his other work in comparison. Avex and I butted egos at the beginning (massively influenced by the TL map community) which I can only assume was to kill two birds with one stone so you can clutch to the egos you all have for a while longer. I'm sure if I told Avex: 'Invader sucks.' and left it at that he'd think I'm a cunt- and rightfully so. Instead I told him, I'm not a fan because of x, y and z, because x, y and z. We respect each other because of this. I didn't tell him he 'did it wrong' or it 'should be this way' like I'm a design God from above. Any good designer knows that any piece of work rarely, if ever, ends at a point of full 'completion'. For a group of people who claim to be so passionate, professional, and high-level map designers- you all generally sound disgustingly entitled. In my education, many students would receive the highest marks- few would be archived into a publication that was released every semester. The kids who cried about never being in it, never congratulated others upon receiving the opportunity were only interested in getting attention and their ego- not design. Hundreds of us spent more hours on those designs than you've put into every map you've ever made. Our school didn't 'owe' us recognition- we earned it.
So my prediction will be based on the social dynamic of the community you childishly stormed out of weeks ago- after they turned on you like a pack of rabid dogs- is that the top finalists of the TLMC will be none other than the loudest ones in the group. You can spend your life designing- expecting X hours to = X money/attention/recognition is the most ignorant design standpoint I've ever heard. I've seen valuable designs that have taken days, and others than have taken years. Time doesn't equal skill or quality.
Totally agree with you about the mistreatment people get from "cavemen" or even generally in chats/forum, on the other hand a vexed eel's "self serviceness" borders on ridicule and he was as bad mannered as m was, just not to the same people!
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[B]Totally agree with you about the mistreatment people get from "cavemen" or even generally in chats/forum, on the other hand a vexed eel's "self serviceness" borders on ridicule and he was as bad mannered as m was, just not to the same people!
If you're referring to self promotion and aggressiveness in that respect that is an entirely different topic imo, As far as map design, sharing ideas, knowledge, and design views, Avex is actually the only person I've spoken to thus far that I consider a colleague- and not a woe-is-me delusional self entitled lack luster FailFish ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Crabs in a bucket meet the Frog and the Ox : The Thread
Rated a 5
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On May 13 2016 06:21 PengWin_SC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2016 05:28 Meavis wrote:
Yeah, how dare someone write this as if he experienced it in the moment, as if it was a blog.
Again, it's cool that you decided to do something like this, but the bluntness that it came with was quite astounding.
And obviously I just want to flame people, no way someone could legitimately get frustrated over things he puts fuck tons of hours in to. Man, I've literally never seen you post something positive. Every time I see you comment on something it's either whining, bitching about how the entire world is against you or flaming people for not doing exactly what you want them to do. not acknowledging the very last bit, but yeah I tend to post a lot of negativity, and there's some reasons behind that outside of being a sarcastic cunt.
mainly that I almost exclusively post on map related stuff, and in maps theres little to be happy about, secondly, is that if theres something positive, I prefer to keep my thoughts to myself.
The reason I say you're just flaming around is that, for my section in particular since I know that bit the best, I've literally given explanations at least a dozen times on all of the shit that happened and you still act like I've never addressed the issue once.
Again, I don't really care much about the whole thing anymore, I'm sure you ment well and everything, and it would be really cool if you'd continue to do stuff with the mapping scene, just please inform people that you're doing something before it happens.
The only reason I'm writing it so negatively here is because that's how I felt in the moment.
Of course I can understand frustration. Hell, we all play one of the most frustrating games in the world, but it's how you deal with the frustration. If there's one thing people should learn from SC2 it's that when things don't go your way you should analyse why and not just whine about the surrounding circumstances.
Those are some strong assumptions you've got there.
It honestly feels like some of you guys from the map cave are just trying so hard to push this "woe is me" narrative that everybody hates you and nobody will ever appreciate your work and you're all just being blocked, but nobody is willing to analyse why.
Knowing why and acting on the situation are completely different things, and everyone has their own approach to issues.
Maybe it feels like that, but know that theres good reasons behind everything, and I'd be willing to take some time explaining what goes on.
I've told Kantuva specifically as well as a couple other mappers that I am more than happy to set up players to test maps that any of you guys make, to help figure out balance and kinks, and in the months since LFM, literally not a single person other than Alba and Avex, who already talked to me prior, have asked for anything. You guys don't seem interested in improving your methods, and frankly it shows.
Sure if you hit the right person, but past results were pretty poor to the point where I consider it wasted effort, and it's not like I've tried alternative approaches, the evidence is all around.
I don't bear any ill will to any of the guys in the map cave, and my offer still stands, but from my perspective, it really looks like you guys don't want to change anything and are content to just keep making the same mistakes and publicly whining about it when it doesnt go your way.
Come on, don't make those accusation when you have little idea of what we do, and I get that you don't mean any ill will, and if you're up to organizing something I'd be happy to discuss it.
Sorry if this seems aggressive, but it's damn frustrating to see this kind of an attitude, and it's damn frustrating to still have shit thrown in my face months after this (successful) event despite the fact that I've offered to do everything I can, and people are still not happy with it.
It's a recap blog, I don't feel much about this in hindsight.
If you want to discuss further or have anything else, feel free to hit me up in pm for my skype.
On May 13 2016 06:57 AlbatrossX3 wrote:
Oh Meavis- For someone who spammed puke emoji's in a group I'm in, during my maps being played on LF,
spamming takes it far.
as well as just shouting how 'misused' the tile sets were-
I don't think I commented on the map at all tbh
without ever directly addressing me, or offering your 'expertise', or even a mention of anything beyond aesthetic bullshit- I really wonder how you expect anyone to show you decency or respect your opinion in the design realm.
TBH, the way you talked with avex is that you didn't seem very receptive about feedback, and I'm not gonna put a lot of time in someone that has barely shown any dedication to continue, and from the fact that I haven't seen any of your work since that time, I consider it to have been the right choice.
In the architecture world- which I thought held some heavy egos- we would actually do something called pin-ups and critiques. Every student would have to analyze another colleagues design, address potential issues on a basic design level, any personal design aesthetic or input they feel is appropriate, and if they disagreed with any direction in the student's design would only be respected if they gave a valid reason as to why it is a poor choice, and offered a better one, or possible tweak to fix the current issue.
So for me to entertain emojis and design critiques that never goes deeper than "The map is bad" is a waste of my time. To not acknowledge your colleagues skills, successes and help them to assess possible design strategies they can refine for the future, is amazingly self-defeating.
I'm not sure why you're pulling this example, if I understand this right you're assuming I have some kind of investment in any of this.
I can highly bet that besides perhaps Kantuva, none of you congratulated Avex on his design being chosen.
Well yeah, not me, probably should've though, but theres quite a variety of reasons for not doing, mostly due to my attitude towards positive things as I mentioned earlier replying to pengwin.
I did, and I did this even though I personally dislike the spacial relationships and nuanced terrain in said map. Avex also knows this is how I feel about the map, and I personally prefer his other work in comparison. Avex and I butted egos at the beginning (massively influenced by the TL map community)
which I can only assume was to kill two birds with one stone so you can clutch to the egos you all have for a while longer.
that just sounds quite hilarious, avex is far from a frequent in that chat.
I'm sure if I told Avex: 'Invader sucks.' and left it at that he'd think I'm a cunt- and rightfully so. Instead I told him, I'm not a fan because of x, y and z, because x, y and z. We respect each other because of this. I didn't tell him he 'did it wrong' or it 'should be this way' like I'm a design God from above.
not everyone feels like dropping their time into holding a class for someone else, especialy when they aren't fully familiar with eachother.
also, way to go on the strawmanning.
Any good designer knows that any piece of work rarely, if ever, ends at a point of full 'completion'. For a group of people who claim to be so passionate, professional, and high-level map designers- you all generally sound disgustingly entitled.
strong assumptions, also funny that you should mention entitlement, given that you're the one demanding feedback and that they drop their time for you.
In my education, many students would receive the highest marks- few would be archived into a publication that was released every semester. The kids who cried about never being in it, never congratulated others upon receiving the opportunity were only interested in getting attention and their ego- not design. Hundreds of us spent more hours on those designs than you've put into every map you've ever made. Our school didn't 'owe' us recognition- we earned it.
I don't feel like theres much in connect, also, way to speak on something you have no idea off.
So my prediction will be based on the social dynamic of the community you childishly stormed out of weeks ago- after they turned on you like a pack of rabid dogs
That's quite a stretch of what exactly happend and why.
- is that the top finalists of the TLMC will be none other than the loudest ones in the group.
tbh this sounds quite hilarious if you knew the scene well.
You can spend your life designing- expecting X hours to = X money/attention/recognition is the most ignorant design standpoint I've ever heard. I've seen valuable designs that have taken days, and others than have taken years. Time doesn't equal skill or quality.
way to go, when you pulled the time argument just moments earlier, also wonderfull strawmanning yet again.
while time and skill don't directly correlate, time and practice does develop skill.
speaking of practice, if you want feedback, show that you are more dedicated than making just a few maps and I'll see if I can free up some time for it.
when that happens, same as said to pengwin, feel free to pm me for my skype.
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"I'm not sure why you're pulling this example, if I understand this right you're assuming I have some kind of investment in any of this." - Thats the format of any education in art and design, I know because I went to one. TLMC is concerned with design, and claims to want to help people improve their skills. I believe when I entered the skype chat, it was demanded to show my maps, not even in an inviting way, and then the deepest evaluation was "it's bad." <-- Why I stopped engaging into that group and haven't since- they do not offer valuable opinions.
"that just sounds quite hilarious, avex is far from a frequent in that chat." <-- I was referring to pms between me and Avex, because we started talking after I was introduced to the TLMC, and we still do. We offer each other honest feedback, and any help in the program itself. Like normal people.
"not everyone feels like dropping their time into holding a class for someone else, especialy when they aren't fully familiar with eachother.
also, way to go on the strawmanning." <--- If you can't look at a map for a few minutes and give a general critique, again, you're not very good. strawmanning? I am referencing the general tone of the TLMC, which I've already mentioned. Shallow feedback with a know-it-all attitude.
"strong assumptions, also funny that you should mention entitlement, given that you're the one demanding feedback and that they drop their time for you." Read a single book/article/discussion from top designers anywhere, or attend 4 years at an art school- it's not an assumption. Designs can always be improved. 2: Who do I demand feedback from? and who did I ask to drop time? If you're talking about the group chat, they demanded I show them work and said 'it's bad' [which all went down in maybe 10 mns time?]. Never said anything beyond that since....so again- wtf are you going on about?
"I don't feel like theres much in connect, also, way to speak on something you have no idea off." <-- speaking from personal experience = speaking on something you don't know about. (I don't even know what to say) If you are spending as much time on a single map as I did designing a 16-story high-rise dormitory then quit while you are ahead and just stop trying. It's a map, not a building.
"show that you are more dedicated than making just a few maps and I'll see if I can free up some time for it." - I already have a group of people that I have my maps reviewed, tested, etc. More dedicated? Last time I took initiative a tournament was created and somehow that was a negative thing for the community. Why do I have to report to the TL about my map design/projects? If I don't does that mean it doesn't exist? Are you joking?
I'm /guessing/ you are of age to still be in school/living with parents. I'm not, I stream full time, do freelance work, and produce offline content. I've also made a handful of maps in between. If you can free up some time for it? Don't bother, this is the last bit of my free time I'll dedicate to you. GLHF
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On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
if theres something positive, I prefer to keep my thoughts to myself
....Why? That's such a cancerous attitude. It's like you want everybody to be sad and depressed in the map community.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
The only reason I'm writing it so negatively here is because that's how I felt in the moment.
This event was months ago. If you didn't still feel that vehemently it makes no sense to still write it out that way. This is just backpedalling.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
Those are some strong assumptions you've got there.
I literally watch you blame all the surroundings over and over publicly. It's not an assumption. Unless I'm wrongly assuming that you actually play SC2 (which would explain some things), there's no other assumptions in that part.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
Knowing why and acting on the situation are completely different things, and everyone has their own approach to issues.
Maybe it feels like that, but know that theres good reasons behind everything, and I'd be willing to take some time explaining what goes on.
Hell of a non-answer you've got there. If you're going to explain the inner workings do it here, doesnt make much sense to have to privately explain everything to both Alba and myself on skype.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
Sure if you hit the right person, but past results were pretty poor to the point where I consider it wasted effort, and it's not like I've tried alternative approaches, the evidence is all around.
Is this a joke? How could it possibly be wasted effort? Did they not blindly agree with the map design? If they have qualms with the map after playing on it, no matter who it is, you should take that into consideration. These are the people who are going to be playing on your map if it gets into stuff after all. I literally cannot think of a way that this would be wasted effort. At the absolute worst, the players give no input and you still have games to watch on your map to draw your own conclusions from. Not seeking playtesting is either egotistical, lazy, or both.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
Come on, don't make those accusation when you have little idea of what we do, and I get that you don't mean any ill will, and if you're up to organizing something I'd be happy to discuss it.
What DO you do? From all I've experienced myself and heard from others, that's literally almost all you do at all.
On May 14 2016 02:32 Meavis wrote:
It's a recap blog, I don't feel much about this in hindsight.
Then why even write this? Reading your responses to me, all of your answers are complete non-answers and nonsensical defensive points about why you dont want to change your approach. Reading your response to Alba, while I can't attest to the references of stuff that's taken place in the skype group, you're just throwing out strawman accusations every time you don't have a response for a perfectly relevant analogy. The only way your "strawman" accusations stand up is if you think that mapmaking isn't similar to architecture...... which I guess would again explain a few things. You're not really giving any actual replies to her either just "strawman," "lol thats funny," "you don't know anything."
That entire post is an essay of nothing.
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Meavis, you're playing this all wrong dude. Just pretend to stream as a cute girl, make a Twitter, and you'll be welcomed into the mapmaking and starcraft 2 community with loving arms by Pengwin. Perhaps you could call yourself "SeagullSC2".
First he'll casually pop in to your stream chat, maybe donate a few bucks here and there, and perhaps some very light flirting and casual MLP references will be exchanged light-heartedly.
Then he might start to interact with you on social media, maybe a few retweets here and there, and some casual interaction in your mentions. Free retweets for your stream link! "Thanks for the publicity man!!" You'll start to feel noticed by an entrenched SC2 community member! Wow! You're moving up in the world! He's the "captain" of an sc2 team! Feels good, does it not?
Perhaps some more stream interaction and social interaction, maybe a few Reddit posts here and there to promote your brilliant stream, and then he will get your Skype! Wow! You're talking directly with Pengwin, what an honour! You talk with him about everyday casual stuff, and perhaps he name drops casually because he's just that badass. "Hey, y-you I took a map of Elroye in practice the other day". You're gobsmacked, starstruck at the fact you're talking to such a strong community figure that is so personable and humble.
At this point, you'd be sitting at 50 viewers still, needing a boost and some extra promotion. So your good friend Pengwin offers you a tournament out of his own pocket, because he's just such a nice guy, man. Obviously, your maps are absolutely brilliant by default because you have a vagina, so that's not an issue at all. The tournament gives you some exposure but its not enough.
Oh look! A LAN event that is conveniently situated, Pengwin will fly you out there, no problem. He'll fly out from Switzerland to anywhere in the world to promote you, your maps, and your stream dawg, no questions asked, he's just that nice of a guy, amigo. You meet him there and now you meet his highness, Pengwin himself, and potentially some other superstars such as Reynor and god-king Elroye. But, against all odds, you're not starstruck anymore. You're at a LAN event in StarCraft II, you've made it! Thanks to the good grace of Pengwin.
After a great day at LAN, you head up back to the hotel, ready for a good night of sleep. Pengwin knocks on your door at 1am, asking if you have any spare towels. You check if you have any, and he follows you in. Unfortunately you realise you have none left, upon turning around he the places your hand on his now very hard "towel rail" so to speak, and asks you to check there.
By now, you feel indebted to him. He has promoted your stream and you're really close to a sub button on Twitch, so you suck up your pride and go for it, unzipping him eagerly, visualising the cash money you'll make after this. He requests you make pony noises as you perform the fellatio, which you reluctantly agree to, and he brings out his Rainbow Dash mane and tail before it begins to get into character. After a few minutes of the act, he finishes and you rejoice in the foundations of your new career.
You thank him greatly, but he runs back to his bedroom to look for another hot young starlet to woo into another successful sc2 streaming and illustrious mapmaking career.
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On May 13 2016 17:20 AlbatrossX3 wrote:
If you're referring to self promotion and aggressiveness in that respect that is an entirely different topic imo, As far as map design, sharing ideas, knowledge, and design views, Avex is actually the only person I've spoken to thus far that I consider a colleague- and not a woe-is-me delusional self entitled lack luster FailFish ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And as far as how you would rate his politeness..? (from where I'm standing, he's the picture perfect kid with no one in mind but himself, he is (and that could even be regarded as funny) perfect cave material.
I was insulted and treated as shit (even in the way I was "invited") .. so I can attest that whoever the people in it were (whatever the excuses they would provide now and they wont) they are not welcoming nor even nice.
This "cave" is spewing kid's hormones, lacking any sense of communication or good will. Stands to reason it gets nothing done.
Edit:
On May 14 2016 16:20 toplel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Meavis, you're playing this all wrong dude. Just pretend to stream as a cute girl, make a Twitter, and you'll be welcomed into the mapmaking and starcraft 2 community with loving arms by Pengwin. Perhaps you could call yourself "SeagullSC2".
First he'll casually pop in to your stream chat, maybe donate a few bucks here and there, and perhaps some very light flirting and casual MLP references will be exchanged light-heartedly.
Then he might start to interact with you on social media, maybe a few retweets here and there, and some casual interaction in your mentions. Free retweets for your stream link! "Thanks for the publicity man!!" You'll start to feel noticed by an entrenched SC2 community member! Wow! You're moving up in the world! He's the "captain" of an sc2 team! Feels good, does it not?
Perhaps some more stream interaction and social interaction, maybe a few Reddit posts here and there to promote your brilliant stream, and then he will get your Skype! Wow! You're talking directly with Pengwin, what an honour! You talk with him about everyday casual stuff, and perhaps he name drops casually because he's just that badass. "Hey, y-you I took a map of Elroye in practice the other day". You're gobsmacked, starstruck at the fact you're talking to such a strong community figure that is so personable and humble.
At this point, you'd be sitting at 50 viewers still, needing a boost and some extra promotion. So your good friend Pengwin offers you a tournament out of his own pocket, because he's just such a nice guy, man. Obviously, your maps are absolutely brilliant by default because you have a vagina, so that's not an issue at all. The tournament gives you some exposure but its not enough.
Oh look! A LAN event that is conveniently situated, Pengwin will fly you out there, no problem. He'll fly out from Switzerland to anywhere in the world to promote you, your maps, and your stream dawg, no questions asked, he's just that nice of a guy, amigo. You meet him there and now you meet his highness, Pengwin himself, and potentially some other superstars such as Reynor and god-king Elroye. But, against all odds, you're not starstruck anymore. You're at a LAN event in StarCraft II, you've made it! Thanks to the good grace of Pengwin.
After a great day at LAN, you head up back to the hotel, ready for a good night of sleep. Pengwin knocks on your door at 1am, asking if you have any spare towels. You check if you have any, and he follows you in. Unfortunately you realise you have none left, upon turning around he the places your hand on his now very hard "towel rail" so to speak, and asks you to check there.
By now, you feel indebted to him. He has promoted your stream and you're really close to a sub button on Twitch, so you suck up your pride and go for it, unzipping him eagerly, visualising the cash money you'll make after this. He requests you make pony noises as you perform the fellatio, which you reluctantly agree to, and he brings out his Rainbow Dash mane and tail before it begins to get into character. After a few minutes of the act, he finishes and you rejoice in the foundations of your new career.
You thank him greatly, but he runs back to his bedroom to look for another hot young starlet to woo into another successful sc2 streaming and illustrious mapmaking career.
So.. dear dumb kid, everybody ignored your post .. as they should. I wont, because I am me.
You are a waste of space, please don't reproduce + Show Spoiler +
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On May 14 2016 16:29 fluidrone wrote:And as far as how you would rate his politeness..? (from where I'm standing, he's the picture perfect kid with no one in mind but himself, he is (and that could even be regarded as funny) perfect cave material. I was insulted and treated as shit (even in the way I was "invited") .. so I can attest that whoever the people in it were (whatever the excuses they would provide now and they wont) they are not welcoming nor even nice. This "cave" is spewing kid's hormones, lacking any sense of communication or good will. Stands to reason it gets nothing done. + Show Spoiler +
I'm quite polite when approached in a polite manner. If you or anyone else approach me with your head up your own ass, I'm going to kick it up further and hope you suffocate. Else, I'm going to cooperate in a manner that is appropriate - as I did with BaseTrade, with Pengwin, and others who approach me for projects.
When I was invited to the cave through Xiphias, it was because I thought we were going to talk about maps, and have it be a place where I could ask questions, receive feedback. Instead I found a cave of people who were has-beens who think highly of themselves or people who just have massive egos (and I'm not saying I don't have an ego of my own, that's ridiculous). That wasn't worth my time.
The fact that I can talk to Albatross about maps and she understands that the topic of discussion at that time is maps, is something I find myself quite attracted to. The fact that basically NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS, is the problem.
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god damn it meavis why did you have to start all of these arguments again, you just succesfully re-pissed off 3 separate people... i say you settle this the honorable way with a few good old fashioned rapier duels
i'm still somewhat amazed that "mapmaking drama" is, or ever was, an actual thing...
Edit:
@avex: just realize that the map cave really isn't a strict "map discussion only" group, half the time it's just people screwing around and shooting the shit. understandable if that's not what you want, but it is what it is
@albatross: for the record, i and a couple others gave legitimate reviews/criticisms of your maps iirc, pls don't blame everyone
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EPT
