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Viral Logical & Deductive Reasoning Problem

Blogs > Disregard
Post a Reply
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
April 14 2015 15:54 GMT
#1
There is a proof question going around the Asian interwebs lately taken from the Asian/Singapore Math Olympiad (SAMSO) and has gained notoriety for baffling everyone that isn't a Kurt Godel!(I kid! Because this question is for 14 year-olds).

I did some simple courses in discrete mathematics for personal interest but it has been awhile and certainly is not my cup of tea anymore so I would like to see fellow TL'ers solve this. Over the years I have seen a few math wiz members here so don't be shy, I know who you are!

Answer for the weaklings:
+ Show Spoiler +

Remember, Albert is told either May, June, July or August.

Bernard is told either 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 or 19

Let’s go through it line by line.

Albert: I don’t know when Cheryl’s birthday is, but I know that Bernard doesn’t know too.

All Albert knows is the month, and every month has more than one possible date, so of course he doesn’t know when her birthday is. The first part of the sentence is redundant.

The only way that Bernard could know the date with a single number, however, would be if Cheryl had told him 18 or 19, since of the ten date options only these numbers appear once, as May 19 and June 18.

For Albert to know that Bernard does not know, Albert must therefore have been told July or August, since this rules out Bernard being told 18 or 19.

Line 2) Bernard: At first I don’t know when Cheryl’s birthday is, but now I know.

Bernard has deduced that Albert has either August or July. If he knows the full date, he must have been told 15, 16 or 17, since if he had been told 14 he would be none the wiser about whether the month was August or July. Each of 15, 16 and 17 only refers to one specific month, but 14 could be either month.

Line 3) Albert: Then I also know when Cheryl’s birthday is.

Albert has therefore deduced that the possible dates are July 16, Aug 15 and Aug 17. For him to now know, he must have been told July. Since if he had been told August, he would not know which date for certain is the birthday.

The answer, therefore is July 16.
Also video if you are TLDR
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32304126



[image loading]

****
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Cephiro
Profile Joined May 2011
Finland1934 Posts
April 14 2015 16:57 GMT
#2
This was a fun thinking problem to spend a few minutes on.

My unedited notes/thought process:
+ Show Spoiler +

May 15 - May 16 - May 19
June 17 - June 18
July 14 - July 16
August 14 - August 15 - August 17

Month = Albert
Day = Bernard

Because Bernard knows the day but not the month, Bernard's given number has to be 14/15/16/17
(They have multiple options for the months)

May 15 - May 16
June 17
July 14 - July 16
August 14 - August 15 - August 17

(July/August - 14)
(May/August - 15)
(May/July - 16)
(June/August - 17)

We now know that Bernard has been given the day 14, 15, 16 or 17
We have absolutely no idea which month Albert has been given.

Albert knows the month. He knows that Bernard doesn't know the whole date either.
It cannot be on a month with a single date, because otherwise Bernard might know it.
So it's not May or June.

That leaves:
July 14 - July 16
August 14 - August 15 - August 17

At this point, Bernard knows the day, and the month as well based on the remaining options.
This means that July 14/August 14 are not an option.

We're down to:

August 15, July 16, August 17.

It has to be July 16th, because Albert could not claim to know it if he had been told "August",
as there would be two viable options for him to pick from still.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
April 14 2015 17:19 GMT
#3
Neat logic problem . I wouldn't consider it a math problem though. Of course as always we have to assume Albert and Bernard are perfect logicians.
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-14 19:07:21
April 14 2015 19:07 GMT
#4
I got it via e-mail from some relative. it's not very hard, but i needed to write stuff down to get an overview of the facts. I don't think i was able to solve it when i was that age though.

In spoilers my reasoning in Dutch, because i'm too lazy too translate. It's nearly equivalent to the given answer.
+ Show Spoiler +
Volgens de eerste tip weet je dat de dag niets zegt, als je weet welke maand het is. Dit betekent dat maanden waarin een unieke dag zit, afvallen. Kijkend naar het schema hieronder, betekent dat dat mei en juni afvallen. Immers, de 19e en de 18e komen in geen andere maand voor. Augustus bijvoorbeeld valt niet af, omdat 14 (juli), 15 (mei) en 17 (juni) in andere maanden staan. Als de verjaardag in Augustus was, was de eerste tip niet waar geweest (en daar gaan we even van uit).

Dus nu hebben we nog 2 maanden over: juli en augustus.
Omdat Bernard dit ook kan redeneren, weet hij dat de maand juli of augustus is. Hij zegt nu de verjaardag te weten. Dit impliceert dat de dag van de verjaardag niet 14 is. Immers, als de dag 14 was, wist bernard de verjaardag nog niet; het kon 14 juli óf augustus zijn.

Dus er blijven nog 3 data over: 16 juli, 15 augustus, en 17 augustus.
Omdat Albert ook tot deze uitkomst is gekomen, weet hij de verjaardag. Dit betekent dat hij de verjaardag weet, ondanks dat hij niet weet welke dag de verjaardag is. Zou de verjaardag in augustus zijn, is dit onzin. Immers, de mogelijkheden zouden dan 15 en 17 augustus zijn. Dus de maand is juli. Omdat we weten dat 14 juli afvalt, moet de verjaardag dus op 16 juli vallen.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24745 Posts
April 14 2015 21:42 GMT
#5
I'm a bit proud of myself for doing it without writing anything down, but realistically I probably shouldn't be.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
April 14 2015 23:49 GMT
#6
On April 15 2015 06:42 micronesia wrote:
I'm a bit proud of myself for doing it without writing anything down, but realistically I probably shouldn't be.


Didn't you teach at the secondary level microesia? I remember you're a physics teacher or something along the lines
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-15 00:06:14
April 15 2015 00:05 GMT
#7
I got it right the first time without writing anything but I can't remember if that was actual logic or just luck. pretty cool once you know how to do it, a bit tricky though remembering to constantly refer to both the sentences and the original items both knew.

+ Show Spoiler +
when I did it the second time I got to the 2 left months and got slightly stuck since I forgot about the previous lines and the fact you still had to consider them. very tricky to figure out in your head though.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
April 15 2015 07:37 GMT
#8
I googled and I know the answer
MichaelDonovan
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1453 Posts
April 15 2015 22:07 GMT
#9
July 16. Ez Pz Lemon Squeezy.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
April 16 2015 00:43 GMT
#10
July 16?
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
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