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So for a while now I have been thinking about HotS and the new units that are coming. Most of them seem to have pretty defined places in the match up. Unlike most posters, I like the new terran units, as they will provide much needed stability to the Glass Cannon army. One unit that I have been focused on is the Widow Mine.
Now, may people focused on who the Widow Mine could be used to break up the death ball, turn the tide of battle and if it could win you the game. To no ones surprise, the mines could not win you the game outright unless your opponent was not looking at the screen when they hit. Quickly, people decided that they were useless and went back to asking for tanks to be buffed.
But after the stats were released and I took a look at the Widow Mine, there were a lot of reasons for terrans to be excited for this unit.
Minerals: 75
Gas: 25
Supply: 1
Build Time: 20
Health: -
Speed: -
Attack Damage: 200*
Attack Range: *
Attack Delay: 10 Seconds after latching on.
Special Ability – Burrow: 3 seconds to burrow. Aside from the time to burrow it functions exactly the same as regular burrow.
To be clear, there are several things that I like about the Widow Mine. First off, it trades efficiently with nearly any unit it connects with in a mineral basis. Only marines, zerglings and workers cost less than the mine itself. It is also supply and time efficient, as 4 mines can be pumped out by a single reactored-fractory in 40 seconds. This means that a terran can build and replace mines quickly, with minimal impact on their overall production.
Now the topic of how mine would be used in large battles has been talked to death, but there has been little discussion on all the other parts of the game. If the mine connects with a unit, it is going to take 200 damage. There are few teir one and two units that can live through that kind of damage. This means that any scouting unit that encounters one of these mines will be wiped out. Against protoss, that can make map presence and tower wars much more costly. Losing stalkers to these mines is not something the protoss is looking forward to. Although minor, with the slow pace of mech play, denying information at a low cost point is very important. The mine is like a burrowed zergling that can also kill the stalker.
I would also like to see how the mine effects the current TvZ meta game. In their current build, the mines one shot a queen for one half the mineral cost. Since standard terran play was based around a reactored factory, there is no reason that widow mines could not be used against zerg along with the hellions. And without detection in the early game, the zerg could not use the queens to uproot the mines. This could limit creep spread and force the zerg to build units or alter their build from pure drones. It would also give the terran much needed map vision that is harder to deny and lower risk than a single hellion.
This is all musings, of course. We do not have access to the unit yet and it will likely go through some balancing. Personally, I do not thing the AOE is the key part of the mine or even important. Its value is its ability to trade efficiently with most scouting units and force players to micro. I hope that part stays, because I think it will be the focus of making the unit useful. Also, the amount we can control the unit, what it targets and how it acts is critical. But if all these things are true, I will be excited to see it latch on to some queens.
  
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Well, just one thing to point out that makes a huge difference - the mine does not explode if the unit it attaches to dies. This means that if you overkill or kill the units that have mines on them, the mine does nothing.
But from playing the beta at anaheim I can tell you as long as you have a good mine field like with spider mines, it's still really good positionally and many will go off, because it's like brood war where your opponent can't simply walk through that area without taking a lot of damage/losses, and you can defend areas with less units than the attacker which is good.
There will be some good techniques to using them efficiently.
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On July 20 2012 02:14 avilo wrote:
Well, just one thing to point out that makes a huge difference - the mine does not explode if the unit it attaches to dies. This means that if you overkill or kill the units that have mines on them, the mine does nothing.
But from playing the beta at anaheim I can tell you as long as you have a good mine field like with spider mines, it's still really good positionally and many will go off, because it's like brood war where your opponent can't simply walk through that area without taking a lot of damage/losses, and you can defend areas with less units than the attacker which is good.
There will be some good techniques to using them efficiently.
Even if they kill the unit, as long as it wasn't a zergling or marine, the mine will be cost effective. The AOE almost seems like punishment for the opponent, rather than the purpose of the mine itself. I am really interested in seeing how they alter the low econ sections of the game. Losing one or two stalkers in an early micro battle can really cut the legs out from under a protoss, let alone sentries.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 20 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:14 avilo wrote:
Well, just one thing to point out that makes a huge difference - the mine does not explode if the unit it attaches to dies. This means that if you overkill or kill the units that have mines on them, the mine does nothing.
But from playing the beta at anaheim I can tell you as long as you have a good mine field like with spider mines, it's still really good positionally and many will go off, because it's like brood war where your opponent can't simply walk through that area without taking a lot of damage/losses, and you can defend areas with less units than the attacker which is good.
There will be some good techniques to using them efficiently.
Even if they kill the unit, as long as it wasn't a zergling or marine, the mine will be cost effective. The AOE almost seems like punishment for the opponent, rather than the purpose of the mine itself. I am really interested in seeing how they alter the low econ sections of the game. Losing one or two stalkers in an early micro battle can really cut the legs out from under a protoss, let alone sentries.
Yeah, the mine sounds really good. It's probably the only change to Terran that I consider to be really fun, even if the others (warhound, etc) are strong. The Warhound, the Battle Hellion, these are things that encourage players to a-move, which is very un-Terran-like and very un-fun. The Widow Mine, though? It encourages baller awesome cool positional play, and micro, which are both Terran-like and fun.
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its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 20 2012 04:54 joon wrote:
its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^
Yeah this is true. I think they're trying to give Zerg some space control with the Swarm host, but they don't seem to be doing anything for Protoss.
I think the biggest thing about the mine is that it produces very quickly. With a 20s production time and coming out of a reactor, I wonder if some sort of rush with these sort of things might be powerful.
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On July 20 2012 04:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:54 joon wrote:
its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^ Yeah this is true. I think they're trying to give Zerg some space control with the Swarm host, but they don't seem to be doing anything for Protoss. I think the biggest thing about the mine is that it produces very quickly. With a 20s production time and coming out of a reactor, I wonder if some sort of rush with these sort of things might be powerful.
personally, i feel like swarm host is a sorry attempt at a unit. i feel like lurker would be a better choice personally, considering how slow the swarm host does damage etc..
sure you could argue that zerg doesn't need any more aoe damage. however, i think with the upcoming changes (viper, ultra charge, etc) zerg could do fine without the infestor. or at least a nerfed version of fungal. not letting units move makes for weird battles where little micro is involved (from both sides of the fight). this is a loose theory but still one that i feel should be given thought
EDIT: also, I feel like zerg units should unburrow quicker. ie when a roach unburrows its very quick and can immediately do a ton of damage. i feel like burrow is very underutilized. just imagine burrowed 30 lings and unburrowing and getting a sick flank. however that's not possible with the lings dying while they unburrow and doing no damage
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Swarm host is a space control unit? Unless you count the opponent's ramp as space, then I don't think so. If someone finds a way to use it as such, then whatever, but everything Blizz has said is that it's a backbreaker.
To your point, Joon, it almost seems like the widow mine would be a good fit for protoss. Blizzard has said they want to give Protoss options that don't increase the strength of the main army. The problem with Terran is that they're extremely mobile in one matchup and fairly immobile in another. I'm not sure they need it in PvZ, though, with their beautiful walls and friggin' indestructible expansions.
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On July 20 2012 05:54 Jerubaal wrote:
Swarm host is a space control unit? Unless you count the opponent's ramp as space, then I don't think so. If someone finds a way to use it as such, then whatever, but everything Blizz has said is that it's a backbreaker.
To your point, Joon, it almost seems like the widow mine would be a good fit for protoss. Blizzard has said they want to give Protoss options that don't increase the strength of the main army. The problem with Terran is that they're extremely mobile in one matchup and fairly immobile in another. I'm not sure they need it in PvZ, though, with their beautiful walls and friggin' indestructible expansions.
Hell no.
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On July 20 2012 04:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:54 joon wrote:
its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^ Yeah this is true. I think they're trying to give Zerg some space control with the Swarm host, but they don't seem to be doing anything for Protoss. I think the biggest thing about the mine is that it produces very quickly. With a 20s production time and coming out of a reactor, I wonder if some sort of rush with these sort of things might be powerful.
Am I totally nuts in thinking that 200 damage is an insane amount for the AOE? I have no problem with it doing 200 damage to the primary, but 200 in an AOE is mind blowing. That is 5 fungles or 3 storms if you sit under them and soak up the rays. We know all of these units are going to be crazy OP when they get into beta, but I hope they cut the AOE damage down, but keep the primary damage high. I would rather reward the terran player for good mine placment with an efficent trade and then punish their opponent with some solid, but not game ending, AOE damage for not paying attention.
I agree that protoss does not need the mine. Terran needs a unit that can give them some map vision and control. Protoss has pylons, which give them some level of area control and enough cool stuff in HotS coming.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 20 2012 06:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:57 Blazinghand wrote:On July 20 2012 04:54 joon wrote:
its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^ Yeah this is true. I think they're trying to give Zerg some space control with the Swarm host, but they don't seem to be doing anything for Protoss. I think the biggest thing about the mine is that it produces very quickly. With a 20s production time and coming out of a reactor, I wonder if some sort of rush with these sort of things might be powerful. Am I totally nuts in thinking that 200 damage is an insane amount for the AOE? I have no problem with it doing 200 damage to the primary, but 200 in an AOE is mind blowing. That is 5 fungles or 3 storms if you sit under them and soak up the rays. We know all of these units are going to be crazy OP when they get into beta, but I hope they cut the AOE damage down, but keep the primary damage high. I would rather reward the terran player for good mine placment with an efficent trade and then punish their opponent with some solid, but not game ending, AOE damage for not paying attention. I agree that protoss does not need the mine. Terran needs a unit that can give them some map vision and control. Protoss has pylons, which give them some level of area control and enough cool stuff in HotS coming.
I was under the impression the AoE damage only happened if the unit it hit survived-- against something like a zergling, marauder, stalker, or whatever, it only kills the unit. It explodes in an AoE if it hits a carrier or a BC or whatever.
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Can't wait till they nerf the mine into oblivion or remove it outright so Terran goes back to playing bio because if its not horrendously over powered there won't be a reason to mech over bio.
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On July 20 2012 06:18 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 06:17 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2012 04:57 Blazinghand wrote:On July 20 2012 04:54 joon wrote:
its a good concept but i wish blizzard would try to incorporate more space control into the other races. the widow mine just seems like a refurbished spider mine. in fact, alot of hots feel half-assed. and if anything terran needs space control LEAST of all right now (siege tanks, planetary, etc)
just my thoughts ^^ Yeah this is true. I think they're trying to give Zerg some space control with the Swarm host, but they don't seem to be doing anything for Protoss. I think the biggest thing about the mine is that it produces very quickly. With a 20s production time and coming out of a reactor, I wonder if some sort of rush with these sort of things might be powerful. Am I totally nuts in thinking that 200 damage is an insane amount for the AOE? I have no problem with it doing 200 damage to the primary, but 200 in an AOE is mind blowing. That is 5 fungles or 3 storms if you sit under them and soak up the rays. We know all of these units are going to be crazy OP when they get into beta, but I hope they cut the AOE damage down, but keep the primary damage high. I would rather reward the terran player for good mine placment with an efficent trade and then punish their opponent with some solid, but not game ending, AOE damage for not paying attention. I agree that protoss does not need the mine. Terran needs a unit that can give them some map vision and control. Protoss has pylons, which give them some level of area control and enough cool stuff in HotS coming. I was under the impression the AoE damage only happened if the unit it hit survived-- against something like a zergling, marauder, stalker, or whatever, it only kills the unit. It explodes in an AoE if it hits a carrier or a BC or whatever.
That is correct, from what I understand. Still, that is pretty unforgiving if it takes place. Even if it was 80 damage, that is still battle changing and will make any of the races back off. 200 is full mobs of stalkers, roaches and zealots going down to a one supply unit. If they are going to ton it down, the AOE is the place to start, IMO.
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I'm amazed no one has talked about if they deal friendly damage with their AOE? If so, they are pretty much useless since speedlings or chargelots are just gonna run straight over the minefield into your tanks/workers/units like some suicide bomber, since it takes so long for the mine to explode (10 seconds, really?).
Anyways, since it takes so long for the mine to explode I cannot seriously think of any scenario when they will be useful in master+ scenarios, since most people actually look at their army from time to time. Well, one scenario: overpowered and annoying worker harass. Imagine walking 2 of these guys into a mineral line on some fringe expansion...
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Can't these things also latch onto air? Can you imagine if its range of attachment is longer than an observer's sight range? That would be hilarious. xD
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On July 23 2012 22:32 virgol wrote:
I'm amazed no one has talked about if they deal friendly damage with their AOE? If so, they are pretty much useless since speedlings or chargelots are just gonna run straight over the minefield into your tanks/workers/units like some suicide bomber, since it takes so long for the mine to explode (10 seconds, really?).
Anyways, since it takes so long for the mine to explode I cannot seriously think of any scenario when they will be useful in master+ scenarios, since most people actually look at their army from time to time. Well, one scenario: overpowered and annoying worker harass. Imagine walking 2 of these guys into a mineral line on some fringe expansion...
If you are just talking about the AOE damage, then you may be correct. However, as I stated above, the mine trades efficiently with almost every unit it attaches to. They won't win games, but will allow players to control more of the map, take the wind out of timing pushes and force more detection out of their opponents.
On the hitting air topic, I can't wait to see players lose who WP and Medivacs to one of these. Or mutas, since they cost so much less than a single muta.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 24 2012 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 22:32 virgol wrote:
I'm amazed no one has talked about if they deal friendly damage with their AOE? If so, they are pretty much useless since speedlings or chargelots are just gonna run straight over the minefield into your tanks/workers/units like some suicide bomber, since it takes so long for the mine to explode (10 seconds, really?).
Anyways, since it takes so long for the mine to explode I cannot seriously think of any scenario when they will be useful in master+ scenarios, since most people actually look at their army from time to time. Well, one scenario: overpowered and annoying worker harass. Imagine walking 2 of these guys into a mineral line on some fringe expansion... If you are just talking about the AOE damage, then you may be correct. However, as I stated above, the mine trades efficiently with almost every unit it attaches to. They won't win games, but will allow players to control more of the map, take the wind out of timing pushes and force more detection out of their opponents. On the hitting air topic, I can't wait to see players lose who WP and Medivacs to one of these. Or mutas, since they cost so much less than a single muta.
I was also under the impression that they don't deal friendly fire damage, but I could be wrong or it could be changed.
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The problem though is that they still cost resources (time, minerals, gas and not to mention supply) for a chance at an efficient trade. This will probably work just fine before observers / overseers are in the game - however, early on most units on the map are probably as cheap if not cheaper (stalker being the only unit I would consider a good trade) than the mine.
Another limiting factor for the mid-lategame use is the supply cost. You just don't want to be spending lots of supply to cover all the possible pathways and expansions that an enemy can attack for a measly chance that the enemy has no detection with him.
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On July 24 2012 02:30 virgol wrote:
The problem though is that they still cost resources (time, minerals, gas and not to mention supply) for a chance at an efficient trade. This will probably work just fine before observers / overseers are in the game - however, early on most units on the map are probably as cheap if not cheaper (stalker being the only unit I would consider a good trade) than the mine.
Another limiting factor for the mid-lategame use is the supply cost. You just don't want to be spending lots of supply to cover all the possible pathways and expansions that an enemy can attack for a measly chance that the enemy has no detection with him.
Well the unit has to be limited in some way, otherwise it is over powered. Protoss pylons away just to spot drops or for the potential of a key warp in. Zerg do the same with overlords, with the hopes of seeing a push comming. Now, both of these provide supply and only cost minerals, but they also don't explode, kill units or win games(on their own). Also, 20 seconds is the second shortest build time in the game(workers are fastest) it can be reactored. 8-10 supply is enough to cover one or two paths, which is all that is needed since your army could cover the other approaches.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 24 2012 02:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 02:30 virgol wrote:
The problem though is that they still cost resources (time, minerals, gas and not to mention supply) for a chance at an efficient trade. This will probably work just fine before observers / overseers are in the game - however, early on most units on the map are probably as cheap if not cheaper (stalker being the only unit I would consider a good trade) than the mine.
Another limiting factor for the mid-lategame use is the supply cost. You just don't want to be spending lots of supply to cover all the possible pathways and expansions that an enemy can attack for a measly chance that the enemy has no detection with him. Well the unit has to be limited in some way, otherwise it is over powered. Protoss pylons away just to spot drops or for the potential of a key warp in. Zerg do the same with overlords, with the hopes of seeing a push comming. Now, both of these provide supply and only cost minerals, but they also don't explode, kill units or win games(on their own). Also, 20 seconds is the second shortest build time in the game(workers are fastest) it can be reactored. 8-10 supply is enough to cover one or two paths, which is all that is needed since your army could cover the other approaches.
I think also -- and this is critical-- it provides a really really good way to fight the "there is one bullshit unit shitting on me" kind of play that can happen, be it banshee rush, VR attack, etc. in the early game. All the problems of the widow mine are like "oh I don't want to be maxed on it" or "it'll never hit multiple units"-- but these problems are pretty minimal when you've opened reactor hellion FE against a protoss and he goes VR allin, you just need to hold out for like 20 seconds, then bam, 2 widow mines and he's gotta pull his VR back.
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EPT
