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Now all this pushing for everyone to go straight to college and get a degree for their future in life to be a job that requires one.
But teachers, friends and family also say that college isn't for everyone. Why do they say that but what they really mean is college isn't for everyone but you have to go to college or your going to be a deadbeat?
Currently I'm only attending community college for classes I feel I will need such as painting, accounting and a tool class.
I know for sure I'm not going to get a degree, plus I know I couldn't get one if I wanted to because of higher math and science.
My main problem is, what am I supposed to want to be as a career?
I guess jobs for people without a degree would be
entrepreneur
Mechanic
Service man
Law enforcement
security guard
artist?
My dad has a food label and package design business
And he says he has 2 main graphic designers that have no degree, because all the ones he's hired that has had a degree in art were very mediocre and weren't creative.
He also hired a team of 3 programers for the website and system that also have no degree because the ones he's hired that have had a computer degree would only be able to program things a certain way but if he had an idea for a certain trigger or something in the language they would be completely at a loss and seemed to only be able to regurgitate more higher end sites and systems but at a lower quality.
What's your opinion on degrees that require creativity and innovation?
  
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I think your dad took a very small subset and non representative sample of the population. Alot of guys I've met with degrees in programming and art are fantastically creative
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Never take sample sizes of 2 when generalizing stuff....
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being creative is nothing you can study. You are creative or not, all you can learn at a college is the techniques to properly use your creativity.
And if you are in a college age ( I suppose around 19 ) and still dont know what you want to do with your future then I guess noone can help you. Only you yourself can know what you want. That aside Artist is no job being an artist is nothing you decide on in the spur of a moment. You certainly can but the results will be crap.
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College isn't for everyone, essentially means that the academy isn't for everyone. The style of "business" that it is doesn't suit everyone. If you don't care much for extensive research, theory, or being a part of the intellectual world as a whole then "college isn't for you". However degree-earners in every field, including creativity and innovation are the most consistently successful and always are the ones who innovate.
It is an issue of quality of education vs. quantity, essentially. The programmers and artist that you mentioned without degrees taught themselves. To be at their level they had to struggle much more than those who are at the same level with university education. The problem lies in that not everyone can "college educate themselves" on fields of creativity, as college SHOULD allot many resources to becoming successful in the field of study as well as being educated. Artists have to attend gallery openings, be a part of the community, and give their own presentations. Artists of the same calibur not in school may not learn the social manners of the trade.
Higher tier colleges, such as Drake University, provide multidisciplined and creative thinkers. This style is on the rise and for good reason, young minds today are a huge pool of talent and "profit" in business terms. Critical thinking is an integral part of all my classes there, for in my math and science classes I derive rules myself (with references for help) before I come upon the rules we know like E = mc^2. Be wary, though, of lower tier colleges that simply cannon fodder information and expect you to regurgitate rather than critically analyze. You can tell the difference based upon the finals you take in even elementary level courses. Did you extrapolate your knowledge or did you simply do a question from your homework with a slight wording change?
I honestly think everyone should have a college degree or have gone to a trade school/joined a union. All of these prepare you for the society of your field as well as the knowledge of your field.
It isn't to say that anyone without a degree is bad at their field and that everyone with a degree is good, but the degree candidates tend to do better because of a higher overall knowledge of the field. You can always root out those who aren't creative and just skated by in the interview.
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My opinion on degree's in general is that they are overrated, i dropped out of college just this week, took my finals, failed my classes because I knew they didn't matter and all I know is that I hated college it was a waste of my time and money, I know plenty of people who after they graduated went back to the same sort of jobs they had in high school because they couldn't find jobs elsewhere
at the end of the day you HAVE to find a way to make money doing something you enjoy for example I myself am preparing to take my HTML, CSS, PHP, Javascript etc... certifications because making websites is something I can enjoy and I don't always need a college degree to do it
good luck man, whatever you choose
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Sega, you're an example of someone who would succeed without a degree. Looks like you already have the talent so long as you keep in touch with the community. The drive to continue working on it is definitely there.
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On December 13 2011 06:05 retRed wrote:
My main problem is, what am I supposed to want to be as a career?
I guess jobs for people without a degree would be
entrepreneur
Mechanic
Service man
Law enforcement
security guard
artist?
Let's break these down.
Mechanic you need some form of education, whether a technical school certification or general understand of how to do the job.
Law Enforcement? Please. Talking from experience, if you want to get anywhere, you need a degree in that field. Easily. I'm going to school now trying to get my BA in Psychology and my AA in Justice Studies. Just to get a job in patrol after working in Corrections for years.
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yeah in some disciplines i feel that it's all about being actually good at what you do, rather than whether or not you have a degree
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Not all employers are as open-minded as your dad. Many will not take the chance on someone who doesn't have a degree. I'm not saying its right or wrong but that's definitely the way it is. Also, many degrees don't require much or any higher math or science. I know for some business degrees, communications, arts and letters, etc degrees you will need at most a low level calculus class that amounts to highschool pre-calc and some interdisciplinary sciences. So don't let that be the sole reason you choose not to pursue one.
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By artist I hope you actually mean artist/writer/song writer(or singer etc.)
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certainly there is a correlation for being good at what you do and getting a degree in that field - speaking for more practical degrees like engineering, math, business, science etc
but even for fields known to be narrow in job prospects if you have the talent, willpower and the work ethic you can be successful too
honestly for most people if you don't even have the discipline or work ethic to go through something like college then reasonably you can't be expected to do well in life
people say "oh Bill Gates dropped out of college and he's the richest man in the world" but yeah he got 1590/1600 on his SAT so assuming he decided to go through with school he would've been mighty successful at that too
unfortunately not all of us can be like him so most of us regular joes go through the system
depending on what you study you might not need higher maths / sciences...and if you wanted to study in a field that did require maths/sciences then perhaps you should rethink what you want to do. if you really wanted it you'd work hard and tank through those subjects
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Programmers and graphic designers without degrees have it a little better than other people since its easier for them to create a product and show it off.
There are those who can create fantastic work without college education, but they are in the small minority and if you are one of them, it would probably be apparent by now. If you're not one of these people, I would say its pretty likely that if you don't go to college, you'll end up a deadbeat. Of course, there are exceptions but I don't think you should base your life goals on the chance of getting lucky.
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Its a matter of do you know with what you want to do. College right now is like a social fad if i met people i didn't know and they said "So what college do you go to?" and if i said "none" i can guarantee somewhere most people would immediately judge me as either 1. Lazy 2. Stupid
Theres no point in going to college imo if you don't know what you want to do. Why study 4 years of Mech engineering if you find out you really wanted to write novels.
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A degree is just a piece of paper. It proves absolutely nothing about you. Having said that, would you rather have one and not make use of it? Or none at all and wished that you had one? You can't see the future, that's why a degree is a much more safer road to take in reality.
College is more than just spending hundreds of thousands for a piece of paper; it's another stage of life. If you think you've known it all already - you don't. To illuminate my point, try doing college in a different country on the other side of the world, and you'll discover the world unlike what you've known before.
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There is no degree that requires creativity and innovation. However, college/university is a great place to develop and express those traits... you get to spend 4 years taking classes from experts, and spending time with people who have the same interests as you. It's up to you to make the most of it.
That said, it's certainly not for everyone.
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My suggestion would be not to attend an undergraduate university based on a specific career; that's what vocational colleges are for. Developing a breadth of knowledge and the foundations of proper learning and critical thinking is what four-year schools should be primarily about(though this has changed considerably.)
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No matter what, even if you graduate with a totally unmarketable degree, spending the money on at least a 4-year college education is totally worth it. Even the kids I know who made good money doing other things after high school regret not having the school experience.
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On December 13 2011 07:43 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
My suggestion would be not to attend an undergraduate university based on a specific career; that's what vocational colleges are for. Developing a breadth of knowledge and the foundations of proper learning and critical thinking is what four-year schools should be primarily about(though this has changed considerably.)
There are exceptions to this, i.e. Pre-Med, Law, etc.
Regarding the OP, there are terrible programmers with degrees in CS that barely passed. If you are hiring people with technical degrees, you have to either make sure the university is well-known, or they have exceptional GPA.
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On December 13 2011 08:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter what, even if you graduate with a totally unmarketable degree, spending the money on at least a 4-year college education is totally worth it. Even the kids I know who made good money doing other things after high school regret not having the school experience.
When College loans are specifically designed to bankrupt gullible and desperate students, and college costs could easily exceed $100,000-150,000 for some people without scholarships -- no, no it's not "just worth it" even if you get a terrible degree. Bankrupting yourself is not worth it just to learn some shit that no one cares about that you could easily learn by picking up a book from the library or online.
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I'm kinda saddened about the whole "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR BE A FAILURE IN LIFE" mentality of the UK and US societies nowadays. I am a final year CS student and I didn't have a clue what I wanted to specialise in, other than some form of IT work. I found a passion and enjoyment out of programming and just working at creating something from just a set of general tools.
It's sad because not more than 2 other people out of a class of about 90 in my year share any passion for CS or programming. They only mention money and games. It's ridiculous at the fact an interface design class has bustling numbers of people signing up for it, yet my Distributed Systems class only has 6 people (with 2 people dropping out of it since that class began) signed up.
My ethos on University degrees is that you should really only pursue something at a degree level or higher if you genuinely have the passion or interest in the field. A degree is usually a fine tooth comb over a subject field with complex details in the subject at hand. If you don't have the motivation or interest to that level, then you should really reconsider what you want to do in life. £9k is a LOT of money every year to learn something you have no or little interest in. Even worse for US students.
It's also very sad that courses universally are getting "dumbed down" to cater to the ever widening doors of universities. You lose a lot of what makes the degrees exciting, and instead only get the mainstream ideas and theorems being taught to you.
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On December 13 2011 08:38 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:09 farvacola wrote:
No matter what, even if you graduate with a totally unmarketable degree, spending the money on at least a 4-year college education is totally worth it. Even the kids I know who made good money doing other things after high school regret not having the school experience. When College loans are specifically designed to bankrupt gullible and desperate students, and college costs could easily exceed $100,000-150,000 for some people without scholarships -- no, no it's not "just worth it" even if you get a terrible degree. Bankrupting yourself is not worth it just to learn some shit that no one cares about that you could easily learn by picking up a book from the library or online.
I definitely would agree with this sentiment despite my earlier post. I forget a lot that I went to a state school and was able to pay my tuition semester by semester as opposed to many of my friends that have debt.
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EPT
