Pro Terrans, please help me with my macro apm/mechanics.
Hi, pHershey signing in. I've been laddering for a year now. My Starcraft foundation comes from watching GSL Open Season 3. So I started off very cheesy with weak macro. On the bright side my unit control has always been above average. I never played RTS games before. I figured if I could master battle-micro it would make up for me not knowing build orders or strats. So I would practice for hours upon days splitting marines and scoot shooting. I'm a very stubborn person. I'm too stupid to know what's impossible. Kinda like Froz (Mentioned in Day[9] Daily #100) when I see a Korean terran do something, I just practice until I can execute it.
But you can only learn so much from VoDs...
The first major step toward my SC2 gaming progress was going to the NASL season 1 Finals. I saw ST Alive practicing. It was amazing how fast he played. It literally evolved my brain. "OOHHHH, that's how you're supposed to play!?" After that, I yearned to emulate the pros. I signed up to play at the MLG Anaheim Open Bracket. I figured I get 0-2 twice
then the real plan would go into effect. Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing. I was there to steal free lessons from the best players in the world. Standing behind IMMVP, I saw that he boxes his SCVs, starting from bottom right to upper left. I do that now because it hard to do--like strengthening your weak hand in basketball. ColDrewbie has really tight-tetris long-piece boxes when he does Marine Split Challenge, allowing him to grab 1 to 2 marines out of large groups. SlayerSGanzi practices on XNC solo. He spells words out with his SCVs. The perfect straight lines and smoove curves his workers form is analogous to an expert artist's brush stroke. Amazing unit control. If SlayerSBoxer is going to play on a new map, he studies every pixel of terrain. He rally scvs to each main base, noting the blind spots of each scouting pattern. He goes along the whole parimeter of the map, places where he can tuck marines behind bunkers. He floats factories behind mineral patches, noting safe medvac routes. It was amazing to see him actually use that recon in his match. The more I studied the more it occurred to me, Korean Terran dominance isn't automatic. It is paved in hard work and preparation.
Witnessing the best players in person should have been a discouraging experience--wow look at how good these guys are. I can't do that!
But I'm too stupid to know what is impossible.
Instead, I was very inspired. Their Demi-God play is just the sum of a thousand mortal habits.
You can say I'm delusional. My best friend says its my best and worst trait. I am not an NBA player or Movie Star, but because of my past pursuits, I can 360 dunk at 5'9" and I've been able to pay my bills as a SAG actor. Likewise, in SC2, I'm not saying my goal is to win a GSL or MLG in 2012, but I would like to play fast (130-160APM) and keep my minerals low.
I'm able to spam 170ave-250peak APM the first 10 minutes of the game. And in battles my APM is 250-300. But in peace time/macro mode my APM drops dramatically. Even when I can keep my mins low my APM suffers. APM isn't everything, but it is a function of how much control you have over your entire army, production, rally points,positioning and the ability to multitask between all these facets. I look at it like this: If Chess was an RTS, and I had double my opponent's APM, I would be able to beat superior players, regardless of their strategy, if given a 2 for 1 move advantage.
To bring it all home and back to the title of this blog. I'd love to see more pros stream their practice sessions. I don't mean practice games, I mean their warmup drills: marine split challenge, Darglein trainers, and more specifically I need to see Dignitas Select do Darglein multitasking trainer. Just seeing him do it would expand my concept of what's acheivable.
MousMorrow says he can do Level 30 Marine Split Challenge. I need to see it. I'm not calling him out. Its for my sake and the overall skill level of SC2. We need to break past SC2's 4 minute mile barrier. If Morrow posts a VoD of him getting level 30 on MSC he could be our Roger Bannister. That is the neccessary step to some kid beating MSC on level 35. I missed Boxer's Marine v Lurker, but I know SC2 will have more of those moments. The difference between impossible and possible is just time.
pHershey signing out.
PS
To give an idea where my micro is at.
Level 9 - Darglein's Micro trainer- Focus Fire (speed/stim enabled)
Level 11 Marine Split Challenge (No stim/No patrol)
Here's another match where I attempt a Select inspired style of multiple drop play, minus the pro level macro and multitasking. http://drop.sc/71450
Although, I 5-0ed my placements and got into diamond on my "smurf" and currently 2-0 on my KR account. I consider myself a plat level player since my main account is stuck there. I have been asked a couple of times by my diamond opponents if I was a Masters smurfing. Nope, just a n00b copying pros
I feel like you are obsessing over APM wayyy too much. I mean, you can be a grandmaster player no problem with 80 APM total (sc2 in-game APM.)
You might not want to hear this but just focus on improving and don't focus on APM too much. If you are building up too much money there are 2 main things to check.
1. Are you keepng your unit producing structures constantly busy? 2. Do you have enough unit producing structures?
That's a big simplification, but it's a big part of what "macro" boils down to.
edit: wtf, I'm 6'0 and can't get even close to dunking lol.
Also, I'd like to add that I think a majority of games are won based on build order choice, decision making, and macro. Having amazing micro over having good micro is great, but I believe the truth is that much of the time it is far from the most influential factor and will only make a difference in the rare "special" game (which is what makes it so special, and an object of admiration when that elite skill pays off.)
i have white mans disease, i can't jump so no way in hell i can dunk.
but in BW, the way I raised my APM was to literally just spam my keyboard. My skill dropped for a week or two, but then eventually my spam became actual commands. You really just have to play a lot and just be extremely comfortable in the game.
On December 10 2011 17:14 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm well, for macro I think it helps to cycle through your production facilities just 1234 constantly.
Also, you shouldn't cheat like that for the first micro trainer lol, kinda ruins the purpose.
I've had some coaching and they told me to save my 123 hkeys for my army. so I have 3 ccs 4 rax 5 facts 6 ports. Yeah you're right, my cycling is kinda weak.
I think I got to level 7 or 8 doing focus fire straight up. After a while you have to do something unorthodox. I might be wrong. Like I said, I'd love to see a pro, or anybody do these trainers to provide a good example. thx for the feedback
On December 10 2011 17:16 Jonoman92 wrote: I feel like you are obsessing over APM wayyy too much. I mean, you can be a grandmaster player no problem with 80 APM total (sc2 in-game APM.)
You might not want to hear this but just focus on improving and don't focus on APM too much. If you are building up too much money there are 2 main things to check.
1. Are you keepng your unit producing structures constantly busy? 2. Do you have enough unit producing structures?
That's a big simplification, but it's a big part of what "macro" boils down to.
edit: wtf, I'm 6'0 and can't get even close to dunking lol.
Also, I'd like to add that I think a majority of games are won based on build order choice, decision making, and macro. Having amazing micro over having good micro is great, but I believe the truth is that much of the time it is far from the most influential factor and will only make a difference in the rare "special" game (which is what makes it so special, and an object of admiration when that elite skill pays off.)
I completely agree with you. Although I love SlayerSBoxer and all the SlayerS Terrans, I've slowly come to appreciate IMMVP more. It's a generalization but I feel SlayerS style is more unit control based where as IMMVP does have good micro, he leans more toward a macro foundation in his play. I feel it is more stable.
Yeah, my blog was very APM-centric, I do realize macro is what's keeping me from getting to the next level. I do see the yin and yang balance of micro and macro. But I believe the higher your APM the more you can have your cake and eat it too. I've been trying to trying to emulate Select's style lately. He's easily one of the fastest terrans right now. At Blizzcon he's showed a more macro style while still playing at the same speed. In the title I asked for help in my Macro APM. One example of Macro APM I have been able to improve on is midbattle suppy depots. I have my spacebar set to a camera location--my main base. Mid battle I tap spacebar, start 2 depots, que rally scvs back to mineral line, double tap 1 back to battle in less than a second. I feel that early spamming every game has given me the hand speed to do that. I think I'm using the wrong word, when I say APM, at times I mean multitasking.
APM isn't everything, but I heard July Zerg was recruited in BW because he was fast. Not that I'm trying to get recruited because of my APM, but I see the logic: it's easier to teach a fast player good strategy, than it is to teach a slow good strategist how to play fast.
As far as being able to dunk, while being addicted to SC2, I'm Black and Korean, it's in my blood;)
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
APM will not improve your macro. It will help you micro and macro, but macro requires remembering to make the different clicks or key presses to produce more units, make upgrades, chrono, or inject larva, or call down mules, to build more production, making more supply, etc. These things need to become mental habits before you APM is useful towards your macro.
Speed means nothing without strongly enforced correct habits. You have done a good job practicing on your micro it seems. You need to set 100% of that aside, and sit your ass down in some games v the computer, and practice macroing like crazy. Constantly check your production, never get supply blocked, never miss a mule, etc.etc. Once you have that mastered, try putting the two together. It probably won't go the best at first, but soon you will be doing great.
EDITS: because I'm really brain dead at 6 a.m. and mixed up a couple of words. XD
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
well after watching that replay, either you're incredibly arrogant about your sc2 ability or you really think we can help you learn more from the games you win rather than games you lose, you can't be stuck in plat, it's just not possible, clearly you are still losing games at the plat level
you won that game cause your opponent never scouted the top of the map, that's all, nothing magically, you never should lose at that point, having been on a base lead the entire game, you played super greedy, if he 4gates you're dead, if he 3gate stalker pressures you're dead
here's the thing you have 458 points in platinum with 389 wins
post a game of you getting your ass stomped and then we might be able to help you
btw doing well in placements matches is meaningless, you don't play anyone good in your placements
edit: your macro really wasn't that good, you only have 4 barracks for the longest time despite getting over 5000 minerals, you should've had like 9 barracks, at that ponit at least, if he hit a timing right, all the mins in the world wouldn't have saved you as your production would've died quite quick
It doesn't matter if you say you're not, or state that you understand there are pros better than you out there. The fact that you post games of you winning, and a freaking youtube video of your poor control and dare say that you think you did "pretty well" oozes of arrogance. Understandably you might not have known this yourself until someone like me points it out.
Fortunately, unless you're very lucky you won't achieve a very high level of play with that attitude, there will be a roadblock along the way that will prevent you from getting any better.
Anyways, your control is terrible in those vids, and do not do yourself a disservice by suggesting that the Pros really aren't that amazing, because they are. You don't know that they are because you're a low plat player with too many games. Morrow says he can do the lvl 30 marine split challenge, I have no doubt that he can. In fact there are players that do better, like Happy's marine control, I'd say that's like lvl 50 within an actual game rather than a micro trainer.
Here is my advice to you. Adopt a strong inferiority complex, you will naturally get better at SC2. Because right now you look like a kid with the face of inferiority but really you think your control is "above average" when its not so it sounds a lot like a superiority complex to me.
" Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing."
I mean cmon... you're insinuating that your place at the event is serving a higher purpose than anyone else- You're still a goddamn spectator. Unfortunately you will not listen carefully to my post and try to understand my message, rather you'll pass it off as "hate" and never even consider the fact that you might be doing something wrong. But that doesn't bother me, a platinum player isn't going to be put on the mainstage of MLG anytime soon.
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game.
You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever
EPT
