EPTGood Bye. - Page 67
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Spuick
Norway357 Posts
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:09 zdfgucker wrote: His point on reddit was that BW is the only real esports title, everything else sucks. Wheat told him how wrong he was, everyone else wasn't as nice as Wheat and that's how everything began. he wasn't really wrong though by his own definition of what makes a game an esport. it's how he essentially isolated most gaming communities and told them their games arent true e-sports that riled people up. it's not that his opinion is necessarily wrong, its just different from 99% of people's. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:09 zdfgucker wrote: His point on reddit was that BW is the only real esports title, everything else sucks. Wheat told him how wrong he was, everyone else wasn't as nice as Wheat and that's how everything began. His point was that everything else sucks? I didn't see that point being made anywhere. This is exactly what I'm talking about - people are making stuff up so that they can find justification to "defend" something they like even if it's completely irrational. As for BW being the only real esport title, that wasn't his point either. His point is that he considers BW to be the only real esport because it is the only game that has a decade-long tradition of being on national television and packing outdoor stadiums with audience that doesn't only consist of other players and their friends. That sure seems like a VERY unreasonable opinion to have, it's PURE fanboyism and elitism, right? ...wrong. And Wheat most certainly wasn't being "nice" in that thread. | ||
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UltimateHurl
Ireland591 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:09 zdfgucker wrote: His point on reddit was that BW is the only real esports title, everything else sucks. Wheat told him how wrong he was, everyone else wasn't as nice as Wheat and that's how everything began. Reading it it felt to me that the point he was trying to convey was that the definition of esports he has in his head is only met by BW due to things like non-player (or non-nerd) audience and such, and to him nothing else has reached that level. It's sort of like saying that my definition of manly is someone who can swim a mile while pulling a boat full of people and so far only Jack LaLanne has met that standard, you can get offended, you might be able to clearly see my definition is elitest (as he himself admitted with the title), but it doesn't necessarily say 'everything else sucks' so much as 'nothing else is there yet'. So it really felt like 'I hope other aspiring esports get to this level of development'. Wheat was basically the most public of people making ad-hominem attacks (and publicly saying 'f**k you'), so I'm not sure it's a case of being 'as nice' so much as lowering the tone to ad-hominem attack. I entirely disagree with Milkis' definition, it's entirely too elitest and narrow, but I've nothing against him for making the points. | ||
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zdfgucker
China594 Posts
* BW isn't the only grandfather of esports. So are Quake and CS. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:21 zdfgucker wrote: Wheat was really nice considering his esports background and how Milkies basically trashed all of it. That whole definition argument is too stupid to really discuss it, sorry. And regarding BW elitism see my first post, I edited it. BW elitism has always been annoying even for me as a BW player. Except he DIDN'T trash all of it. You're making things up again. This did not happen. If you're going to hate somebody, at least hate him based on what he says, not what you want him to say so that you can hate him. Facts are not elitism. | ||
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Woizit
801 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:13 Talin wrote: His point was that everything else sucks? I didn't see that point being made anywhere. This is exactly what I'm talking about - people are making stuff up so that they can find justification to "defend" something they like even if it's completely irrational. As for BW being the only real esport title, that wasn't his point either. His point is that he considers BW to be the only real esport because it is the only game that has a decade-long tradition of being on national television and packing outdoor stadiums with audience that doesn't only consist of other players and their friends. That sure seems like a VERY unreasonable opinion to have, it's PURE fanboyism and elitism, right? ...wrong. And Wheat most certainly wasn't being "nice" in that thread. Exactly. Too many people jumped onto the hate bandwagon. Milkis himself said that it was an elitist view, he surely wasn't expecting it to be embraced by most people. His points were all quite right, though the conclusion he drew was questionable. Nothing came close to what BW has accomplished for E-sports. The backlash to that was seriously disgusting, to insult and then discredit him from his work is like he said de-motivating to say the least. Seriously idiots who are happy to see him go don't know what we're going to miss. He was the largest bridge between the foreign and Korean community. All those threads about "I'm with <this player> ask me questions now!", or the posts about Korean netizen reactions, the Korean players' experience of MLG... he brought us so much stuff. Think about it, how will we have a nice and quick translation of MC chasing the pickpocket if not for Milkis? These are the kind of tidbits that I'm surely going to miss. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
I love you Milkissss come backkkk | ||
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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
Good luck and goodbye, I hope you return one day, I can only think of positive things in terms of the community opinion of your and your contributions. I won't offer any judgements, just god speed! | ||
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zdfgucker
China594 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:23 Talin wrote: Except he DIDN'T trash all of it. You're making things up again. This did not happen. If you're going to hate somebody, at least hate him based on what he says, not what you want him to say so that you can hate him. Facts are not elitism. Oh, now it's facts. Used to be an opinion before! At least now you've shown your true face.  | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:30 zdfgucker wrote: Oh, now it's facts. Used to be an opinion before! At least now you've shown your true face. Or it could be that I'm not addressing the same thing, you know. Fact is that the Brood War is the most advanced e-sport, and the only one that has ever functioned and been successful in the long term. Fact is that all western e-sports have consistently failed to reach any similar level of exposure and even survive in the long run. When people bring these up, it's not elitism, it's facts. Opinion is which games (if any) you consider to be legitimate e-sports or not and what your personal criteria for that are. This is where one can be elitist. | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:00 Milkis wrote: I couldn't care less about what you considered my opinion. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:00 Milkis wrote: I never wanted to be popular nor did I want attention (although I guess I did enjoy it, but it's not something I ever wanted). If this were true, you wouldn't have to outright say it. It's extremely untrue. In fact most of your post is saying the exact opposite of what is true. Saying people put words in your mouth? OMG man you're delusional. Some people can't even take the smallest amount of attention - they just start acting a fool until it all blows up in their face. | ||
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Coufu
Guam137 Posts
The point of continuing this thread of discussion really isn't to agree or disagree with his opinion of BW/esports, but rather to agree or disagree with how he is handling the retaliation. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:48 OPL3SA2 wrote: If this were true, you wouldn't have to outright say it. It's extremely untrue. In fact most of your post is saying the exact opposite of what is true. Saying people put words in your mouth? OMG man you're delusional. Some people can't even take the smallest amount of attention - they just start acting a fool until it all blows up in their face. wtf are you saying lol, youre making no sense. nice job Talin trying to reasonably argue with these people ^^ | ||
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lazyfeet
United States468 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:41 Talin wrote: Or it could be that I'm not addressing the same thing, you know. Fact is that the Brood War is the most advanced e-sport, and the only one that has ever functioned and been successful in the long term. Fact is that all western e-sports have consistently failed to reach any similar level of exposure and even survive in the long run. When people bring these up, it's not elitism, it's facts. Opinion is which games (if any) you consider to be legitimate e-sports or not and what your personal criteria for that are. This is where one can be elitist. Those FACTS are only true in the eyes of the koreans. Fact is that Brood war never make any noise in the foreign scene. You are telling me SC:BW are the true e-sport yet i still rather want to watch sc2. Before that i find warcraft 3 more interesting then sc:bw. Everyone has a opinion what is e-sports. It is not a fact that sc;bw is the true e-sports. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:41 Talin wrote: Or it could be that I'm not addressing the same thing, you know. Fact is that the Brood War is the most advanced e-sport, and the only one that has ever functioned and been successful in the long term. Fact is that all western e-sports have consistently failed to reach any similar level of exposure and even survive in the long run. When people bring these up, it's not elitism, it's facts. Opinion is which games (if any) you consider to be legitimate e-sports or not and what your personal criteria for that are. This is where one can be elitist. That's fine. (I feel like those exact facts are debatable, but let's just assume they're true for this) If he had presented those facts, and been like, "Now we have a chance for everything to grow even better!" there wouldn't have been all this hullaballoo. Instead he presented those facts, and then said, "the reason that western esports aren't at the same level, is because they don't have an audience that can watch without having played" and then implied that because of this reason, they are not sports. Which, whether you like it or not, is insulting to a large number of people | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 30 2011 22:21 lazyfeet wrote: Those FACTS are only true in the eyes of the koreans. Fact is that Brood war never make any noise in the foreign scene. You are telling me SC:BW are the true e-sport yet i still rather want to watch sc2. Before that i find warcraft 3 more interesting then sc:bw. Everyone has a opinion what is e-sports. It is not a fact that sc;bw is the true e-sports. Oh dear, at least try reading first. Nothing you said disagrees with anything I've said. -_- On October 30 2011 22:22 reneg wrote: Instead he presented those facts, and then said, "the reason that western esports aren't at the same level, is because they don't have an audience that can watch without having played" and then implied that because of this reason, they are not sports. He said that HE doesn't consider them to be sports, not that they are not. And when you apply his criteria, that is actually true. So the only question is - do you think his criteria are good or bad? It it so unreasonable to not consider every game that is competitive for a few years and has some prize money and contracts involved a "sport"? I'm not asking whether you agree with it or not, I'm asking you whether you truly believe that such an opinion is really that unreasonable. It's fine to disagree. It's stupid to act as if some great offense has been done to you and proceed to be spiteful and vindictive (I don't mean you personally of course, but the kind of people who do act that way). | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On October 30 2011 22:22 reneg wrote: That's fine. (I feel like those exact facts are debatable, but let's just assume they're true for this) If he had presented those facts, and been like, "Now we have a chance for everything to grow even better!" there wouldn't have been all this hullaballoo. Instead he presented those facts, and then said, "the reason that western esports aren't at the same level, is because they don't have an audience that can watch without having played" and then implied that because of this reason, they are not sports. Which, whether you like it or not, is insulting to a large number of people No it's not, and that's exactly how I understood Milkis post. Plus, those are fact. Thanks Talin to try to bring a semblance of reason to people who feel insulted by such stuff, and then complain that Milkis is a drama queen. Idra is still as tasteless too. | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:11 Lemonwalrus wrote: wtf happened?  Yeah wtf happened? I've been gone for a few days and everything is messed up at TL | ||
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