EPTMaybe I'm just kidding myself? - Page 2
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
On September 25 2011 19:23 Demonace34 wrote:Either way, good luck on getting into diamond. Remember that hard work, focus and a good attitude will help you reach your goals faster. Yeah, it's the attitude that's getting the hardest these days. The longer I practice with negative results the harder it is to stay positive. It would be easy to stay positive if I practiced and at least got a LITTLE better, or won a couple matches, even if I never leagued up. It wouldn't be TOO hard to stay positive if I hit a wall and could at least stabilize at 50/50, or just float in mid-plat or something. It would be hard to stay positive, but probably doable, if I started slumping, but I had some good role-models to look up to. Zerg players that were tearing it up, winning a ton of matches with awesome styles that I could practice. But as it stands, I'm practicing, losing, getting worse, slipping into Gold territory, and every Zerg I find to look at is in a similar slump. No Zerg players seem to be doing well right now. And that's really depressing. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
On September 26 2011 00:11 TheSubtleArt wrote: Easiest way is to just focus on mechanics, especially as Zerg. You can easily make high diamond / low masters with mechanics alone. I've seen people prove this with protoss and I can definitely believe it with terran, but I really can't see this as being true for zerg. We don't have any good strong core units to just ubermacro your way to the top with. I think you could hit high diamond/low masters with a well-polished enough rush or cheese strategy like anyone else, but anything past that is going to require good scouting to get proper drone timings, good scouting to react to tech swaps that can easily kill you if you're not prepared (DT, Banshee, Void/Phoenix, etc), and at certain points in the game, macro alone just isn't enough (Mass Colossus, mass immortal vs roaches, HT vs Muta, etc). If anyone actually has any evidence that you can straight macro your way to Masters with Zerg, that would at least give me something to work on, but I've lost so many games where I had better macro that this just doesn't seem possible to me anymore. (Not saying these replays show that, just that is has happened). On September 26 2011 00:11 TheSubtleArt wrote: Just keep working at it and most of all, have fun. Why would you bother playing a video game if you weren't having fun, right? Because I have injuries that prevent me from doing much else right now? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
In ZvP I win tons of games vs FFE with a pure roach two base timing. You can do it even on 3 base as long as you just deny your opponent colossi. If he gets colossi add corruptors and you're set | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On September 25 2011 22:40 Reithan wrote: Yeah, it's the attitude that's getting the hardest these days. The longer I practice with negative results the harder it is to stay positive. It would be easy to stay positive if I practiced and at least got a LITTLE better, or won a couple matches, even if I never leagued up. It wouldn't be TOO hard to stay positive if I hit a wall and could at least stabilize at 50/50, or just float in mid-plat or something. It would be hard to stay positive, but probably doable, if I started slumping, but I had some good role-models to look up to. Zerg players that were tearing it up, winning a ton of matches with awesome styles that I could practice. But as it stands, I'm practicing, losing, getting worse, slipping into Gold territory, and every Zerg I find to look at is in a similar slump. No Zerg players seem to be doing well right now. And that's really depressing. Well the beauty about losing games is that you have a snapshot of the way you play in game to look back and reflect on and to find mistakes. Starcraft series in general isn't easy, and without having a good attitude and mindset when you lose, you will stagnate even more. Just by reading your last paragraph I can tell you are going into games feeling down about playing as your race. There has to be some Zerg player that you look up to that either inspires you or that you admire their play style. You need to find that player and use that inspiration to motivate your practice. For me, it is HuK or SaSe. Whenever their streams are on, I have a notebook out taking notes about how they react to certain builds. I write down notes about the general gameflow with the different ways they play. If I were to put this into Zerg context and you were looking up to someone who does ling bane muta in ZvT, you'd probably write notes about how they go 2 bases and as they get their lair they add on more gas and plant a spire down around 8-10 minutes in the game...soon after taking a 3rd base. You would also write down that this style takes more multitasking and harassment based play until you get up to your hive tech. Anyway, I think I could write for ages on each match-up from either Z or P standpoint. I'd also like to note that I have horrible ladder anxiety and issues with my mindset when it comes to losing streaks and being down. Just remember that Starcraft is a game and you should be having fun with it first and foremost. Some people have fun messing around with build orders and refining. Other people like to do innovative strategies and use previously unused units or tactics. I think most people from Gold on up though are wanting to put in some type of time and effort into getting better and fixing their mistakes. Always remember that the game is external to you and you shouldn't have your ego in the game (this is the main reason people rage and have tilting issues). | ||
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
What about a DT rush? In any case, relying on a strong timing attack isn't just pure "macro", it's as I said, a specific well-polished rush. I'm talking about just pure unthinking macro, like the guy who did the "Build nothing but stalkers" blog. EDIT: This isn't a gripe, per se. I LIKE the fact that Zerg as a race requires more thinking. But I do believe that's true, at least at lower levels. I'm sure in Masters/GM, all races require awesome scouting, crisp timings, etc, but in lower levels it feels like Zerg relies on this more than the others. And I like that. | ||
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
Ret. If I had to pick 1 Zerg pro that I think is just awesome, and I'd love to play like them, it'd be Ret. I know he hasn't had quite as much success as some others, and maybe others are better than him, but I like how he handles the race. IdrA's damn good, but I don't like his super-passive style. July is a old legend, but I think his hyper aggressive style is really risky and it doesn't seem to be paying off for him. Spanishiwa has some great creativity, but he's gotten like zero results with it. Destiny is a lot of fun to watch stream, but I dunno if his playstyle is gonna pan out long-term (infestor infestor infestor infestor and more infestor). Sheth is pretty cool, but I haven't watched him enough to tell if I like him. And I do have a notebook that I use for exactly what you say. I also have a few Master-league zerg buddies that let me obs sometimes, or play games with me. They're really helpful sometimes, but one's swapped to Terran and the other hasn't been available for a bit.  | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On September 26 2011 01:10 Reithan wrote: What if they go zealot/immortal/archon? Is it just the timing that beats that? What about a DT rush? In any case, relying on a strong timing attack isn't just pure "macro", it's as I said, a specific well-polished rush. I'm talking about just pure unthinking macro, like the guy who did the "Build nothing but stalkers" blog. EDIT: This isn't a gripe, per se. I LIKE the fact that Zerg as a race requires more thinking. But I do believe that's true, at least at lower levels. I'm sure in Masters/GM, all races require awesome scouting, crisp timings, etc, but in lower levels it feels like Zerg relies on this more than the others. And I like that. DT rush just means that you have to have detection built into your build right before it hits. Some people like going faster lair and using overseers (they are cheaper now anyway) or you can plan out an evo chamber to come up incase of emergency spore crawlers (also able to help against stargate play). I don't think it requires more thinking, it requires DIFFERENT thinking. How can I squeeze out more drones and still hold off this timing attack. The larva mechanic is why Zerg is forgiving yet fragile. If you forget to spend money on units, atleast you still have your larva there if you are injecting at a decent rate. I don't think there is anything that is pure unthinking macro, roach hydra with a ton of creep spread while you take a lot of bases and get upgrades? Pure stalker and pure marine work because they shoot both ground and air. Zerg on the other hand needs to get a decent 2 base economy before getting out a ton of attacking units (unless you want to go all-in). On September 26 2011 01:16 Reithan wrote: @Demonace34 Ret. If I had to pick 1 Zerg pro that I think is just awesome, and I'd love to play like them, it'd be Ret. I know he hasn't had quite as much success as some others, and maybe others are better than him, but I like how he handles the race. IdrA's damn good, but I don't like his super-passive style. July is a old legend, but I think his hyper aggressive style is really risky and it doesn't seem to be paying off for him. Spanishiwa has some great creativity, but he's gotten like zero results with it. Destiny is a lot of fun to watch stream, but I dunno if his playstyle is gonna pan out long-term (infestor infestor infestor infestor and more infestor). Sheth is pretty cool, but I haven't watched him enough to tell if I like him. And I do have a notebook that I use for exactly what you say. I also have a few Master-league zerg buddies that let me obs sometimes, or play games with me. They're really helpful sometimes, but one's swapped to Terran and the other hasn't been available for a bit. Well, Ret did do well at the Blizzard EU Invitational, he was wiping the floor with people, and you are in luck on the replays. TL just released a replay pack of pure Ret. TL Ret Replay Pack Also if you are looking for certain match-ups to watch pros/top master/GM play. I'd go to SC2 Rep and search the match-up you are looking for. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
You need to sit back and think, OK, what's wrong with me? For example, I didn't like TvT, so at the start of the season I rushed with a repaired tank. Yup. It took some time and 10 TvTs in a row - on the ladder, I kid you not, BNet seemed broken - to realize that if I didn't just play in a shitty way in this matchup my overall performance would improve. I also stopped pushing the Z and tried to play macro against Z. Without even having a build order. Then one day I sat back, looked at my BOs, and thought: "Hey, no wonder I was loosing, this is fucked up." In your case, there are a few VERY simple things you don't do - and if you won VS Diamonds, I'm sure you used to do them - just because you're in that very special mindset, the "meh" mindset. - NO SCOUT AT ALL - No lings. As previously said, just make lings. Idra is so pro he only makes 2. But if you make 4 or 6, so will deny scouting and control the watchtowers. Maybe place one at his third to know when he's expanding. - No lings at his ramp. You don't know when he's moving out. - No army. Drone drone drone. - Terrible, terrible engagements. Like A-clicking all the army into a Protoss ball, your army being a thin line of units waiting to be killed by Colossus and Stalkers. - A-click harass. Speedlings are replaceable and fast. That's why they should be sent to deny thirds, but they should be sent alone. - Creep spread. You need more. - OV spread. Unless the P is going Stargate, you won't lose those precious Ovies. And if the Toss gets one Stargate in the lategame, you usually have enough minerals to get some more before getting supply blocked. All of those little things need to be corrected ASAP, especially because those are mistakes you probably didn't make at some point. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On September 26 2011 01:10 Reithan wrote: What if they go zealot/immortal/archon? Is it just the timing that beats that? What about a DT rush? In any case, relying on a strong timing attack isn't just pure "macro", it's as I said, a specific well-polished rush. I'm talking about just pure unthinking macro, like the guy who did the "Build nothing but stalkers" blog. EDIT: This isn't a gripe, per se. I LIKE the fact that Zerg as a race requires more thinking. But I do believe that's true, at least at lower levels. I'm sure in Masters/GM, all races require awesome scouting, crisp timings, etc, but in lower levels it feels like Zerg relies on this more than the others. And I like that. Of course you're not going to literally close your eyes and make w/e units you feel like making, but having strong mechanics and hitting your injects consistently will boost your game tremendously and leave you plenty of room for mistakes in other aspects of your play. You can have poor control and unit composition and creep spread yet still consistently beat mid diamonds with good enough larva inject because everyone in diamond has shitty macro and will lose to you by virtue of having less stuff. | ||
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
On September 26 2011 07:03 Vlare wrote: How about Stephano? 62-2 on GM ladder in EU.. On September 26 2011 00:23 Reithan wrote: I've seen people prove this with protoss and I can definitely believe it with terran, but I really can't see this as being true for zerg. We don't have any good strong core units to just ubermacro your way to the top with. I think you could hit high diamond/low masters with a well-polished enough rush or cheese strategy like anyone else, but anything past that is going to require good scouting to get proper drone timings, good scouting to react to tech swaps that can easily kill you if you're not prepared (DT, Banshee, Void/Phoenix, etc), and at certain points in the game, macro alone just isn't enough (Mass Colossus, mass immortal vs roaches, HT vs Muta, etc). If anyone actually has any evidence that you can straight macro your way to Masters with Zerg, that would at least give me something to work on, but I've lost so many games where I had better macro that this just doesn't seem possible to me anymore. (Not saying these replays show that, just that is has happened). Because I have injuries that prevent me from doing much else right now? Unless you're hitting 80%+ of your injects, then your mechanics have a lot of work before you can say they're "fine". Zerg is probably the most mechanic dependent race. Edit : Been helping/coaching a lot of people lately. And I just keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again with low league players. You guys DONT SCOUT FOR SHIT. You guys play super blind, and then lose and go. SEE. WTF AM I SUPPOSSED TO DO. Or you guys have sloppy mechanics and bad game sense, aka not knowing when to expand, when to make or cut workers, what times to scout, what times to build units at etc. These are all important things that you most likely suffer in as well. And the whole, "zerg cant scout" thing is crap. I get scouted by zergs all the time. Everyone can scout. And while at certain times in the game it is easier to scout than in others, its always possible. Another thing I often notice is bad responses. If you see something, and respond wrong, or poorly, you will likely lose. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
On September 26 2011 07:03 Vlare wrote:Unless you're hitting 80%+ of your injects, then your mechanics have a lot of work before you can say they're "fine". Zerg is probably the most mechanic dependent race. Edit : Been helping/coaching a lot of people lately. And I just keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again with low league players. You guys DONT SCOUT FOR SHIT. You guys play super blind, and then lose and go. SEE. WTF AM I SUPPOSSED TO DO. Or you guys have sloppy mechanics and bad game sense, aka not knowing when to expand, when to make or cut workers, what times to scout, what times to build units at etc. These are all important things that you most likely suffer in as well. And the whole, "zerg cant scout" thing is crap. I get scouted by zergs all the time. Everyone can scout. And while at certain times in the game it is easier to scout than in others, its always possible. Another thing I often notice is bad responses. If you see something, and respond wrong, or poorly, you will likely lose. I bolded the parts I definitely know I have trouble with. As for saying my mechanics are 'fine', I don't remember saying that, I know I have mechanics issue. If I did say something like that, I probably meant 'fine for plat'. Meaning, I likely don't need IdrA-level macro just to get to Diamond, but I know I have flawed macro (just likey everyone else.  ) | ||
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