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Having decided that my current rank (8th Bronze) is significantly lower then it should be. I looked around TL and found that there was much advice to be had (we'll see how much of it is good) on how to improve one's game play. As instructed by some of the more extensive pieces on the subject, I have come up with a realistic, achievable goal and a rough plan for how I will achieve said goal.
My Goal: Achieve a promotion to Silver league by winning games by Macro alone.
How I will get there:
1) Focus on Macro (keeping money/larva low, injects and drone saturation)
2) Not Attack to win until I have 3 bases up and running.
3) I will use approximately the same build in each match-up, substituting Roaches for Mutas depending on whether I face Protoss or not.
I am hoping that this is a reasonable set of goals and I'll be playing an hour or so a day to see how it works out.
Any advice for how best to focus on improving my macro?
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On July 12 2011 22:32 IVFearless wrote: 3) I will use approximately the same build in each match-up, substituting Roaches for Mutas depending on whether I face Protoss or not.
Imo if you want to focus on macro you should go Roaches in ZvZ also. other that that, gl
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About 2), never attack to win. Always attack to put pressure on your opponent/do economic damage/secure an expo.
Try to use as many hotkeys as possible, and use them at every opportunity. Watch day[9] daily #252 and follow everything day9 says there. Your macro will be 500x better after watching that daily. Bear in mind though, the first couple of games that you play with all of what he said in mind will feel horrible. Very slowly you will start to get the hang of it, and eventually it will become natural for you. It's not instant though; it might take weeks, maybe even months.
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tyty. Do you suggest roaches because they are hardier and easier to 1a?
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I suggest any unit that doesn't require too much micro (you won't be able to micro and macro at your level), which includes roaches.
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Learn to scout and have map control. That is one of the important skills as a zerg player. Otherwise you will lose to cheese. I think it might be a bit depressing to play if you only macro and doesn't focus on reacting to your opponents choice of units.
So my best advice would be that you focus on outsmarting your opponent and figure out their strategy.
It is perhaps better that you practice your macro against an easy computer and optimize it there. Just repeat the first 7-10 minutes of the game like 20 times and see how good an economy you can get and go for something like 1-1 lings with infestor, roach hydra, ling bane muta etc.
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This will be EZ. I mean, you won't lose a single game if you learn to hold off cheese (I didn't, and I lose games because of it). People in BSG can't macro for their lives (I can, and I didn't lose a single game that went further than 10-12 minutes). The actual "achievement" would be to win a game of wc3 without microing. But yeah, good luck have fun.
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Uhh I was about to say I can help you for an hour or so but the servers going down :/
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On July 12 2011 22:43 IVFearless wrote: tyty. Do you suggest roaches because they are hardier and easier to 1a? Roaches (with infestors) are the core of your army in ZvZ. Watch any pro ZvZ that gets past the ling/baneling stage and you'll see
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On July 12 2011 22:32 IVFearless wrote:
1) Focus on Macro (keeping money/larva low, injects and drone saturation)
2) Not Attack to win until I have 3 bases up and running.
3) I will use approximately the same build in each match-up, substituting Roaches for Mutas depending on whether I face Protoss or not.
1). Reading the strategy forums can be a little deceiving. The statement "improve your macro" becomes a bit of a mantra, but at the same time that's a REALLY broad topic. Find some issues you are having, compare them with pro replays, and see what you can do to help. In doing this I found that my injects are so-so until 15 minutes and then freaking aweful. Before that my overlord'ing sucked and I focused on that and it greatly improved. So my advice to you is to focus on injecting, overlords, and spending larva (in that order).
2). You CAN do this, but as you play around you'll notice certain windows where if you make a ton of lings or something you'll win (like it a toss doesn't wall off or a zerg failed a 10 pool and you have a superior army). Don't be afraid to take a win when your opponent gives it to you. Still, for the sake of practice, you can make your third base, but you may lose a few games that you had won. The goal is macro, so it's all good!
3). Be careful with just using one build order. I suppose this will work out fine for bronze and silver leagues, but as you progress higher your opponent may be using a pro "standard" that beats a lot of different strategies. After a few weeks of macro training you might want to watch the dailies about stealing build orders, find a pro level game where you think they did an awesome strategy in your play style (honestly only takes a few hours), and emulate it. Oftentimes you'll notice that you're messing up the macro necessary to pull it off, but this will give you focal points for macro improvement.
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On July 12 2011 23:10 Djagulingu wrote: This will be EZ. I mean, you won't lose a single game if you learn to hold off cheese (I didn't, and I lose games because of it). People in BSG can't macro for their lives (I can, and I didn't lose a single game that went further than 10-12 minutes). The actual "achievement" would be to win a game of wc3 without microing. But yeah, good luck have fun.
I agree with the cheese thing because there is quite a bit of cheese in these leagues (not surprising since they're a ton easier to pull off than long macro strategies). Then again, when you've lost to it enough times you can pick out the timings and create better responses. Plus most BSG players don't pull off the cheese as well as it can be done, so the skill required to fend it off is reasonably leveled.
I disagree, however, with the notion that BSG players can't macro for their lives. Honestly, some of them aren't that bad. I'm high gold and I've had a number of opponents with better macro than some diamond players I know. I will concede that players who STAY in BSG can't macro worth their lives, but being in a higher league doesn't automatically mean your macro is great. In fact, it would be to one's benefit to always find areas to improve their macro since it's the backbone of great play.
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Lots of great thoughts so far. It sounds like I need to adjust my plan to the following:
1) Focus on Macro (Spending my money/Not getting supply blocked/
2) Try to get at least three bases up and saturated before the game ends.
3) I will use approximately the same build in each match-up (Ling/Roach/Infestor) substituting Mutas for Roaches depending on whether I face Terran or not.
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I feel a little awkward giving advice here since I'm no more qualified than the average TLer to do it and I have very little idea what the major problems lower league players might have are. Nonetheless I'm posting because I think my take on this differs substantially from what you'll find on TL. Warning and apologies--the below turned into a long rant of advice. As it turns out, I had a lot to say about this. I hope you'll find some of it helpful.
+ Show Spoiler + To begin with, I want to clarify that--at least as I read it--most of the "how to get better if you're a lower-league player" advice on TL is emphasizing working on macro mechanics. The "mechanics" part is important to distinguish this from the idea of playing a "macro game", as it's called. The "macro game" is the sort of stable way SC should go, and it is incredibly complicated.
Working on mechanics makes sense: you can't possibly learn useful things about the strategy of SC if you're missing injects, not building enough drones, getting supply capped, forgetting to take gas, etc. You miss injects and you start thinking, say, speedling-only strategies don't work early on against such and such a thing Terran can do because I can't get enough speedlings because I don't have enough larva. This is one of the primary reasons you should work on mechanics first: you can't make useful conclusions about strategy until your mechanics are reasonably solid. (The other reason is that it is an easy way to make fast gains in skill.)
Working on mechanics means getting to the point where you're doing everything you need to do when you need to do it. This could mean a whole bunch of things depending on how complicated your strategy is. At its most basic, it just includes building drones on time (and enough of them), hitting overlords, hitting injects.
I don't think attempting to play a "macro game" makes any sense for a bronze-level player. The issue is the following: You want to work on mechanics, but the "macro style" is tremendously strategically difficult, requires incredibly good scouting, and on top of that is the most mechanically taxing style I can think of. In short, it's just too complicated for someone trying to work on mechanics. You should be trying to simplify the game strategically so that your mechanics have more sway over the outcome.
So the thing I am recommending against is your idea (2): not attacking to win until you have three bases up and running. With Zerg, I would instead do something like the following: build a bunch of drones for a while. Focus on not missing injects, not missing overlords, etc, and get some sort of basic tech up. (It can be whatever suits your fancy; I like roaches as a core unit because they're hardy and so you can 1a them into a lot more stuff as you said above.) Then, at a certain time in the game (and you just sort of pick some random time here) switch into only making attacking units. Then, after you have some number of attacking units, go try and kill your opponent. Don't stop until your opponent dies or you run out of money.
Note that this strategy, simple as it is, is already pretty hard to do effectively. On the one hand, you need to make sure you have perfect mechanics. You shouldn't be missing injects, or ovies, or drones, or putting guys on gas, or whatever. On the other hand, you need to make two really difficult decisions: when to switch into units, and when to attack. Then, after you play a game, you have basically two things to look at: (1) The mechanics and (2) the timing of the switch into units.
This strategy also has the advantage that you get a better idea, while playing, of what your opponent is doing--so you get a better idea of what the races you're playing with are capable of at early times in the game. For instance, maybe you find out that when your Protoss opponent expands at such and such a time and also sends a void ray into your base, you can just go kill him with a bunch of roaches. This is really nice to know! To generalize, being aggressive early deals effectively with a lot of unsafe strategies--both super-aggressive army play from your opponent and also economic- or tech-aggressive play.
But from my perspective the real reason to start with this kind of simple strategy is that after a while, you will start to see it evolve naturally into a more "macro game" style of strategy. For instance, at a certain point you'll decide "gee, if my opponent is making a lot of units early, I can't attack effectively, so it's better if I make more drones and be defensive in such and such a way". You'll want to be scouting, because you have a simple strategy that you know how to tweak effectively based on what you see. You'll start adding things in little by little--"gosh, my mass roaches don't deal very well with other Zergs when they get infestors; I guess I'll try getting infestors too".
The problem with committing yourself to playing defensively for a late-game is that all of a sudden you're trying to deal with way too many problems of strategy. You have to scout cheese so you can defend it. You have to scout when your opponent is trying to expand or tech too fast so you can punish it (otherwise you'll die in the late game). You have to scout hidden expansions. As the armies get closer to maxed, you have to worry a lot more about composition. You have to worry about tier 3 tech and upgrades and where are your opponents' expansions and where is his army and what's a good way to engage and all of this. All of this together is hard enough to understand that this game is deep enough to allow for professional play, and I don't see any way you're going to be able to focus effectively on improving your mechanics while trying to deal with all this other stuff.
On a personal note: The above just conforms to the advice that wound up working for me. I played Brood War with the "macro game" mentality and I was terrible at it. I copied what I "saw" professionals doing and was frustrated when it didn't work. Often my problem was that my mechanics were bad. But my most serious problem was that because I didn't have a grasp of the simple ideas of how my pro macro super three-base strategies should work, I eventually hit a wall and wasn't able to improve because I had no ability to adapt to what I saw. I thought about how to not die for the first 10 minutes of the game and then I just sort of played somewhat aimlessly. ("Pressure" my opponent. Whatever that meant.)
For some reason I took SC2 with a different attitude, perhaps because it was new and I felt like I could play around with it. I play Zerg, and I play a lot of aggressive strategies. But I also find a lot of my games developing naturally to the late game. I played lots of games where I just built a ton of roaches and threw them into my opponent's army and either won or lost. Eventually that stopped working. So I threw in some corruptors to deal with colossi, say. Now I feel a lot more comfortable going into the late game because I'm doing so with a plan that I've developed over a long time of playing that came about as a natural extension of what started as build a lot of units and go try and win. Frankly, that also has made the game a lot more fun.
TL;DR If you want to work on mechanics, you ought to start out with a strategy that is so simple that you can actually understand how it works, and build up from there. When you have a good grasp of your strategy, you know everything you're supposed to be doing, and then learning the mechanics is a simple matter of checking to see that you're doing it. In addition, this has the advantage that your strategies will develop to be more complicated, and start to move toward more "macro-oriented" strategies, not artificially, but in a way you understand, as you start to see the necessity for complicating them.
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One thing you can try: practice against computer (medium or something), just to get really used to whatever build order you're using in a certain matchup. Once you have timings down, start focusing on macro and just move your army around the map while macroing / teching (keeping money low, not getting supply blocked) etc.
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On July 13 2011 00:35 incnone wrote:I feel a little awkward giving advice here since I'm no more qualified than the average TLer to do it and I have very little idea what the major problems lower league players might have are. Nonetheless I'm posting because I think my take on this differs substantially from what you'll find on TL. Warning and apologies--the below turned into a long rant of advice. As it turns out, I had a lot to say about this. I hope you'll find some of it helpful. + Show Spoiler + To begin with, I want to clarify that--at least as I read it--most of the "how to get better if you're a lower-league player" advice on TL is emphasizing working on macro mechanics. The "mechanics" part is important to distinguish this from the idea of playing a "macro game", as it's called. The "macro game" is the sort of stable way SC should go, and it is incredibly complicated.
Working on mechanics makes sense: you can't possibly learn useful things about the strategy of SC if you're missing injects, not building enough drones, getting supply capped, forgetting to take gas, etc. You miss injects and you start thinking, say, speedling-only strategies don't work early on against such and such a thing Terran can do because I can't get enough speedlings because I don't have enough larva. This is one of the primary reasons you should work on mechanics first: you can't make useful conclusions about strategy until your mechanics are reasonably solid. (The other reason is that it is an easy way to make fast gains in skill.)
Working on mechanics means getting to the point where you're doing everything you need to do when you need to do it. This could mean a whole bunch of things depending on how complicated your strategy is. At its most basic, it just includes building drones on time (and enough of them), hitting overlords, hitting injects.
I don't think attempting to play a "macro game" makes any sense for a bronze-level player. The issue is the following: You want to work on mechanics, but the "macro style" is tremendously strategically difficult, requires incredibly good scouting, and on top of that is the most mechanically taxing style I can think of. In short, it's just too complicated for someone trying to work on mechanics. You should be trying to simplify the game strategically so that your mechanics have more sway over the outcome.
So the thing I am recommending against is your idea (2): not attacking to win until you have three bases up and running. With Zerg, I would instead do something like the following: build a bunch of drones for a while. Focus on not missing injects, not missing overlords, etc, and get some sort of basic tech up. (It can be whatever suits your fancy; I like roaches as a core unit because they're hardy and so you can 1a them into a lot more stuff as you said above.) Then, at a certain time in the game (and you just sort of pick some random time here) switch into only making attacking units. Then, after you have some number of attacking units, go try and kill your opponent. Don't stop until your opponent dies or you run out of money.
Note that this strategy, simple as it is, is already pretty hard to do effectively. On the one hand, you need to make sure you have perfect mechanics. You shouldn't be missing injects, or ovies, or drones, or putting guys on gas, or whatever. On the other hand, you need to make two really difficult decisions: when to switch into units, and when to attack. Then, after you play a game, you have basically two things to look at: (1) The mechanics and (2) the timing of the switch into units.
This strategy also has the advantage that you get a better idea, while playing, of what your opponent is doing--so you get a better idea of what the races you're playing with are capable of at early times in the game. For instance, maybe you find out that when your Protoss opponent expands at such and such a time and also sends a void ray into your base, you can just go kill him with a bunch of roaches. This is really nice to know! To generalize, being aggressive early deals effectively with a lot of unsafe strategies--both super-aggressive army play from your opponent and also economic- or tech-aggressive play.
But from my perspective the real reason to start with this kind of simple strategy is that after a while, you will start to see it evolve naturally into a more "macro game" style of strategy. For instance, at a certain point you'll decide "gee, if my opponent is making a lot of units early, I can't attack effectively, so it's better if I make more drones and be defensive in such and such a way". You'll want to be scouting, because you have a simple strategy that you know how to tweak effectively based on what you see. You'll start adding things in little by little--"gosh, my mass roaches don't deal very well with other Zergs when they get infestors; I guess I'll try getting infestors too".
The problem with committing yourself to playing defensively for a late-game is that all of a sudden you're trying to deal with way too many problems of strategy. You have to scout cheese so you can defend it. You have to scout when your opponent is trying to expand or tech too fast so you can punish it (otherwise you'll die in the late game). You have to scout hidden expansions. As the armies get closer to maxed, you have to worry a lot more about composition. You have to worry about tier 3 tech and upgrades and where are your opponents' expansions and where is his army and what's a good way to engage and all of this. All of this together is hard enough to understand that this game is deep enough to allow for professional play, and I don't see any way you're going to be able to focus effectively on improving your mechanics while trying to deal with all this other stuff.
On a personal note: The above just conforms to the advice that wound up working for me. I played Brood War with the "macro game" mentality and I was terrible at it. I copied what I "saw" professionals doing and was frustrated when it didn't work. Often my problem was that my mechanics were bad. But my most serious problem was that because I didn't have a grasp of the simple ideas of how my pro macro super three-base strategies should work, I eventually hit a wall and wasn't able to improve because I had no ability to adapt to what I saw. I thought about how to not die for the first 10 minutes of the game and then I just sort of played somewhat aimlessly. ("Pressure" my opponent. Whatever that meant.)
For some reason I took SC2 with a different attitude, perhaps because it was new and I felt like I could play around with it. I play Zerg, and I play a lot of aggressive strategies. But I also find a lot of my games developing naturally to the late game. I played lots of games where I just built a ton of roaches and threw them into my opponent's army and either won or lost. Eventually that stopped working. So I threw in some corruptors to deal with colossi, say. Now I feel a lot more comfortable going into the late game because I'm doing so with a plan that I've developed over a long time of playing that came about as a natural extension of what started as build a lot of units and go try and win. Frankly, that also has made the game a lot more fun.
TL;DR If you want to work on mechanics, you ought to start out with a strategy that is so simple that you can actually understand how it works, and build up from there. When you have a good grasp of your strategy, you know everything you're supposed to be doing, and then learning the mechanics is a simple matter of checking to see that you're doing it. In addition, this has the advantage that your strategies will develop to be more complicated, and start to move toward more "macro-oriented" strategies, not artificially, but in a way you understand, as you start to see the necessity for complicating them.
This is a really good post.
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I agree, incnone's post was excellent. I recommend all of you give it a read. I'll be changing my plan once again.
1) Focus on Mechanics (Spending my money/Not getting supply blocked/Injects)
2) I will announce at what point in the game I will be attacking (not in game, I stream all my games here)
3) I will use approximately the same build in each match-up (Ling/Roach/Infestor) substituting Mutas for Roaches depending on whether I face Terran or not.
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On July 13 2011 00:35 incnone wrote: If you want to work on mechanics, you ought to start out with a strategy that is so simple that you can actually understand how it works, and build up from there.
This is quite the excellent point. I played BW for a year and it took the better half of nine months to really get a handle on what the strategies were supposed to accomplish. This was 2009/2010, so the BW standards were pretty well set. I finally did get a grasp on my play and shot up to D+ before I stopped playing, but it took more trial an error than necessary.
Actually that advice is something I believe I heard on Destiny's stream. He said that bronze players should first learn an easy, one-base strategy involving something simple (like 'make roaches and attack'). Once they have this flushed out start adding elements like expanding.
I suppose the simplicity would explain a lot of the lower level cheese. They're relatively easy, you switch from macro mode to attack mode, and you get wins.
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If you truly focus on improving your macro, and can keep your money low, while maintaining correct tech path and unit composition, you will find that silver is quite a low goal.
If you can do this up until mid-game ~10-12 minutes, you will easily find your way to platinum or higher.
GL with your endeavors.
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Good on you for doing this! Truly all you need is macro to get to diamond, if not masters. Micro, strategy, positioning, cheese, all sorts of other tricks might get you there, but macro is a sure thing. Plus improving macro gives you the best results, hands down.
As I recall there was a diamond protoss who restarted an account at bronze and did nothing but macro up mass stalkers (and the occassional observer) and 1a them with almost no micro, positioning, tactics etc. Yes, he got back into diamond with only pure macro. I can't seem to find it, but IIRC there was a Zerg who did the same, doing nothing but macro'ing up speedlings and 1a'ing them, went from bronze to diamond no problem.
So good luck to you. It'll take time for you to learn and master a new style of playing, but after lots of hard work, one day it'll just click and you'll sky-rocket.
In terms of concrete advice, I'd recommend doing a safe 14 pool 16 hatch for zvp, 16 hatch 15 pool for zvt, and I think 14 pool mass lings works zvz. zvz I think will be tricky, since all mirror matchups in sc2 seem to discourage taking an early expo. After that initial build, all I would do is focus on getting constant larva injects, constant creep spread, and keeping mineral and gas low.
A good way to make sure your macro isn't slipping is to look at your avg resources unspent number after the game ends resource summary tab. It should be below 300/base at the very least, 250/base for a decent game, and 200/base if you're focusing like a pro. (So if you died with 2 bases, your avg unspent hopefully is around 500). If not, you either missed an inject, or you didn't put down another hatch & queen fast enough.
Also, take a moment after each game to look at the army value graph and resource collection rate graph. You can get a pretty good idea of what your opponent did in terms of macro and army investments, vs. your own ... thinking about these graphs + your avg unspent should be enough to explain a HUGE majority of your losses.
Lastly, take the time to analyze all your replays. It's time consuming, but it helps so much to figure out why you lost or won. Try to identify the "turning point" at which you establish a definitive lead or loss in every game, and figure out what lead up to that point and why. If I think it's a mistake on my part, I keep my screen on my base the whole game long with the production tab open and looking at my resources constantly. If I think it's a special build or timing attack from my opponent, then I keep my screen on his base the whole game long while alternating between both the production tab and army value tab and looking at his resources constantly. When he begins moving out his attack, I do a very thorough analysis of my army value and his army value, and his production facilities and my production facilities. This helps me understand how much he invested into his attack, and how much I invested into my defense -- the army value comparison helps me understand how much I need to up my defense and what I need to sacrifice to get there when he starts his attack, and the production tab and facilities analysis helps me understand what I need to scout in order to see this coming the next time it happens.
Good luck!
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Just play 1 month of Brood War and you'll be at least gold/platinum ;]
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