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Philosophy of Knowledge - Page 11

Blogs > Oreo7
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Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
July 05 2011 00:22 GMT
#201
1) You are right, our world is based on a certain set of basic beliefs we cannot verify. However, no one is always as accurate as taking this into account every time they say something, so the use of the word faith in this case seems redundant.

What I adressed is that you are not using the "scientific method", you're just using intuition, which is fine, really, but it's not an "educated guess". Maybe you do have a PhD in scientific history, but I really doubt so. So when you claim with confidence that science will manage to attain what I held as absolute mysteries (the concepts of eternity, infinity, the shape of the universe, and such), you are NOT using the "scientific method', you are using simple LOGIC and not even rigorous logic as it is probably a result of your INTUITION since you probably did not do the necessary research to make such claims.

By the way... so if, you agree that the "scientific method" is really just a set of methods, I wonder, do you really believe that those sciences share a common vague modus operandi, a real method? Because I came to see that what we call a "scientific method" does not apply for sociology, or psychology, and very loosely to astronomy, meteorology, or sismology.
So, if you ever wanted to use a "scientific method" to determine if you need a bulletproof vest to leave your home safely, wouldn't you use psychology and sociology? But then again, if you believe there truly is a scientific method, those aren't sciences! So, do you not believe that those two are sciences? And if they're not, then we already see two disciplines (or at least sociology, psychology being sometimes a joke, I think) who do a pretty good job at giving us some decent informations about the world, without being sciences!


2) I still see scientific studies on the subject, at least I recall seeing a few in the past years...


3) A) You ARE trusting science blindly, as I highly doubt that you are well versed not only on botanics, but in physics, chemistry, mathematics, sociology, psychology, astrology, and so on. You claim that you have seen results, but what kind of results? Has science made life better? This is a complex question, so if your answer is immediately "no", you are being faithful.
Did religion mainly aim to explain physical phenomenons? No. Religion mostly tries to give a meaning to life. Did religion make life better? It did sometimes, I guess. Can we diabolize it? We could, but we would be forced to diabolize science, you know, after seeing Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Painlevé's filmed experiments on living beings, the unit 751 of Kizu, gas chambers, and the list goes on.
Again, when you answer to such questions, you are likely yo have a readymade idea that does not really follow the rigorous "scientific method".

"But there is evidence science works!" Well, peasants thought that cathedrals were a good evidence that their king had a divine right to rule. "Things in general" is not evidence. Maybe you are well versed in many sciences, but does that mean that science in general is flawless? And does that mean that any individual trusting science necessarily has an extensive knowledge of what he supports?

B) Science can explain many things, and as you said it is the best tool to analyze the way the world works. However, is it the best tool to determine what's right from what's wrong? Will science give me an answer if I ask something like "should I have sex with my children"?
You could either refer to:
- Psychology, but then there is no "scientific method", it's just a term that regroups the immense variety of methods used by all sciences
- Or else psychology isn't a science, and you refer to any other sciences, that will basically say that it's OK as long as I don't generate a pregnancy.

Other more metaphysical questions like "What should I do?" or "Who should I be?" can obviously not be answered by science; thus my position, saying that science has its own domain of studies, and is not a general way to attain truth. Thinking that science provides answers for everything is a faithful and in my opinion foolish thinking.

And NO, believing in god does not stop people from looking from truth. It DOES NOT make you believe in fairies, it is in fact not contradictory with science in general. I've seen deist scientists. Rousseau, one of the most brilliant thinkers of his time, much more rigorous and philosophical than Voltaire who was mainly an ideologist, was a deist for example. And he probably looked more for answers than anyone here!


4) Science has a logical approach of things, like philosophy and many other things. I don't really see your point, as science has nothing to do with logical assumptions which fill our everyday lives. Don't confuse science and logic, and don't think science has the monopoly of logic.


5) Science does not give better results than everything else. In fact, science has nothing to do with the most valuable pieces of knowledge I have. Science has contributed very little into directly shaping me, in comparison with other things like tradition, philosophy, or even litterature.
And I believe it is the same for you. What taught you not to rape people in the streets? Your parents, probably...

And no, you can't be empirically sure of what you're seeing, since you could be blind and still know there is a pillar in front of you. You can however be empirically sure that you see what you see. Whether it is true or not, it cannot be answered, and it does not really matter apart from showing that we have an axiomatic perception of things.



To deathly rat: philosophy is the critical, rational, systematic and rigorous analysis of questions regarding life, language, humanity, morality, using the definition of concepts which are afterward used as common tools which can in turn be used as a ground for a common reflexion, as long as those participating are aware of said concepts. There is no universal method though, as philosophy gave birth to many schools, which had their own way to proceed.

I already adressed above the reasons why science isn't the universal answer for any question in the world. Science only gives factual answers in the concerned domains (physics, chemistry, biology, etc) and does not adress (should not adress) ethical or metaphysical questions among which is the existance of God, the purpose of life, the notions of good and evil, or any complex question that doesn't lie on immediate facts but on a variety of concepts. However, philosophy and science don't exclude each other and, as said earlier, there have been many scientists who were also philosophers, and the other way around.

When you say that the difference between philosophy and science are empirical observations... well, most of modern science is based on empirical observations. Plato did define the concept of a world of ideas, but this was about 2300 years ago. What philosophers do is arrange those concepts in categories, or develop ideological ideas that have little to do with experience. But ideologies are usually easily identified and rarely shown as absolute truths.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
deathly rat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom911 Posts
July 05 2011 01:32 GMT
#202

I agree with you, but the question about the existence of a god and the creation of the universe often takes place about science. The Christian church has for centuries recognised that the general popluation having a scientific understanding of the world disempowers them and stands contradictory to their world view. It's for this reason that they constantly try to undermine scientific education across the world.

There are obvious overlaps between philosophy and science. In most cases science acts as witness providing the information, whilst philosophical thinking can debate the ethical ramifications.

However the point I was debating with koreasilver was the method of discovering things about the world we live in. I put it to you that if you grew up entirely in a locked room you could come up with many ideas about the world outside the room. You could create a scenario in which there was no "outside world", or you might say there are just other rooms like the one you are in, or you might have another idea. It would all be an interesting philosophical exercise, but the point is that all of these ideas would be equally valid. In order to find out what was actually out there you would have to either go outside to observe or start to collect secondary evidence. This is why science is the method for discovering how the universe works and not philosophy.
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Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
July 05 2011 02:51 GMT
#203
I'll respond to your conclusions:
A. god does not exist
True, but he exists in our minds. I was watching an experiment where scientists use magnets to cause people to have visions related to god. Some saw hell, some saw heaven. The 6th sense of the brain causes us to believe there is a higher being, and religions are created because of this.
B. Man is mortal
Who cares? If man wasn't mortal then flash would win all starcraft tourneys for the rest of the world. Its good. It makes things matter, because we dont have unlimited time.
C. Life has no inherant meaning.
That's what is so great. We can choose the meaning. Most people do what makes them happy
Think rationally, but optimistically
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
Sotamursu
Profile Joined June 2010
Finland612 Posts
July 07 2011 21:46 GMT
#204
Wow I thought this thread was dead. This will be my last post in this thread, I'll read your reply to it, but I'm not going to write an answer.

1. A common vague modus operandi would be using perception and logic to study the world I guess. Using both of those efficiently leads to the scientific method. It's not only limited to a person physically observing something. For example the orbit of Pluto takes close to 250 years to make one round. We have never seen it make one round, but we can still calculate that this is what will happen.

Because I came to see that what we call a "scientific method" does not apply for sociology, or psychology, and very loosely to astronomy, meteorology, or sismology.

I don't even know what to say to that. Scientific method does not apply to sociology or psychology? Having studied psychology quite a bit I can assure you that the scientific method is applied to any serious experiment and most experiments have produced legit information.


So, if you ever wanted to use a "scientific method" to determine if you need a bulletproof vest to leave your home safely, wouldn't you use psychology and sociology?

1. Should I wear a bulletproof vest outside? (Question)
2. Look at statistics, observe the outside. How likely is it that a shooting will occur? (Now next I would normally have to make an experiment, however I already have the data(statistics) so I just have to analyze it. Oh look, according to the statistics 95% of the people who go out after 24:00 get shot.)
3. Wear a bulletproof vest at night as you are likely to be shot. (publish results)
4. Other people check it for mistakes repeatedly and don't find anything
5. What do you know, the scientific method brought us something useful in the field of sociology.

Just because we can't pinpoint everything in human behaviour does not mean the scientific method is inherently broken, human brains haven't been studied enough and our current technology limits us in the department. That's the only reason psychology or sociology aren't called hard sciences.

Funnily enough all the other branches of science you mentioned also use the scientific method when studying things that fall under their area.

2. After a quick google search, I couldn't find anything other than christian propaganda.

3. a) I don't know what your standards are for well-versed, but I have a good basic understanding various sciences, that allows me to understand the reasoning behind a claim. Or if I at first don't understand something, I can study it a bit further. I know this is some sort of a dumb trick question, since science has brought you the luxurious technology that allows your current lifestyle and if I said that and used technology as an example, I'd just get some useless comment back.

Uh, you're comparing maybe improving someones life by making them believe in god to improving the lives of the vast majority of humans. Sure technology gained through science can be used for "evil" purposes, but the pros out weigh the cons so much, it would be dumb not to use it.

Who said science was flawless? There's always uncertainty in everything. I don't care, if some hillbilly redneck doesn't know why something happens, but knows that it happens. I don't take claims that could change my life on faith.

b) Depends on how you define right and wrong. Let's say right is everything that benefits the society and wrong is everything that hurts the society. The choices you offer are limited and psychology might not necessarily be the only field that would apply to this scenario.
- Let's say someone studied the effects of incest on our society. A good choice to start would be to look at statistics. The scientist looks at the data and after analyzing it concludes that people that were inbred lived an average of 10 years less than other people. Then he studies inbreeding with his doctor friend and they end up finding out that inbred people have less telomeres.
- So basically yes, it is ok if two consenting adults have sex as long as they don't conceive. Any objection to this would be on emotional grounds i.e. that disgusts me so it is wrong.

You don't use science to really do anything other than get a result and then see what you can do with that result.

Questions like "What should I do?" are always loaded. You are presuming that you have to do something. There is no evidence of an ultimate purpose and this kind of goes back to arguing about god. If you want to live, you should do things that keep you alive, how do you know how to stay alive in various situations? This is where science steps in. The results produced by the scientific method could be used to tell you what you need to do to reach your goal.

I meant that you stop looking for answers for the questions your belief already answered. Like if you truly believed the sun is actually dragged up there by a giant scarab every morning, you would not try to explain why the sun goes up every day. It's just a simple case of
a) doing nothing to get an answer
b) doing something to get an answer

4) Science doesn't have a monopoly on logic. Science is just an extension of it, that is why most of the examples I use sound like normal logic to you.

5) ... yes it does when you are trying to study the natural world and gain reliable information. For other vague and abstract things, maybe. You see, science is just a way of getting a good aswer for a question. If a certain question was significant to you and we found out that the real answer was not the thing you were expecting, it will shape you as a person.

I wonder what kind of knowledge you hold valuable. As for science shaping you, that's just incredibly vague on so many levels. It's really a matter of how you look at it, it's the same problem when answering metaphysical questions through science. If a person just sat at home and played WoW 24/7, would science have shapen him because it produced the computer the person uses?

As for things like what taught me to not rape on the streets? I did. It's not really hard when you know that crimes are punishable and things that hurt others is not something you want to do.

Damn what a wall of text.




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