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I'm just going to go out on a limb here and rant about ZvZ! Yeah who cares about BM, it doesn't matter etc. Well I get consistently BMed in ZvZ more than any other matchup because of people who want to get huge macro leads for free and then complain when I punish them for an easy win.
Common example: I usually open pool first because I like playing safe and I like to avoid dice rolls whenever possible, opponent opens hatch first so I am already a little behind on production, but I have speed before he does. Oh whatever should I do? Just let him have a lead? Or use my speed advantage to punish him! Of course I punish him, and if it ends up flat out killing him then his macro opening is a fucking failure - don't blame me because you can't even defend basic speedlings. Then plenty of QQ about how "zvz sucks because of fags like you who can't macro". Yes I can play a macro game but I can also play Starcraft 2 and I will take the free win when you're shitty opening hands it to me.
Another example: We both use the same opening, pool or hatch first it doesn't matter. I always get a hatch on 20 if I don't hatch first so lets say we are pretty much even....only I know he could mass speedlings at any moment, so I build a few to feel safe (rather build lings than spine crawlers so I can scout), and throw in some drones. I constantly scout him and see he has jack shit, no spine crawlers, 4 lings, two queens not blocking the ramp, and like a 10 drone lead on me - and he's not even bothering to scout what I am up to! Oh whatever should I do? Let him have a macro lead because I chose to try to play safe? Or use my army advantage to punish the shit out of his weak opening? I punish him, more QQ.
It's not ZvZ that sucks, it's you that sucks at ZvZ. I don't do "retarded all ins", I don't one base baneling, I don't 6 pool and build spine crawlers in your base. I try to play safe and I use a build that gives me the option to punish if you're greedy or macro if you actually invest in defense to balance out my safe opening. I know a free win when I see it and I will fucking take it if you never pull your pants up.
End of rant.
 
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Well said. I'm shameless about how bad I am at ZvZ, simply because it's the truth. I don't bother telling my opponent he should play differently, though. If I go hatch first and get run over by speedlings it's my own damn fault; and if I go pool first and can't break a decent player's defense it's also my own damn fault.
(I really do hate it when the opponent 6 pools and builds spine crawlers in my base, though. It's just as much my own damn fault that I can't defend it; the difference is that while in other situations I can usually see where I went wrong, against 6 pool I just feel completely helpless no matter what I do.)
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This is true. So many complainers on the ladder. Shut up and practice until you play better lol.
"ZvX learn safe builds or still don't cry about it" imo
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I agree with your general message, but 15 hatch is a safe build if you are not bad...
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Counter-rant:
There's nothing that pisses me off in this game so much as losing to some noob Zerg who knows how to do nothing at all but press the Z button over and over for 10 minutes and a-move. It drives me nuts, because then I am forced to spam Z if I have any hope of being alive, and then the game comes down to "how retarded does my opponent want to be and how long is he going to just keep spamming units at me."
I can't tell you how many times I've lost to some moron who just made a billion zerglings and when I watch the replay I see, "OH... He fast expanded and then literally never made a single drone past 15. Yep, he just made 15 drones and then pressed Z for 5 minutes and hid half of his lings in some corner because he's a cheesy noob who would fail at a macro game if he tried."
The sad thing is these stupid Zergs think they HAVE to all in when they go pool first against hatch first. They don't even realize they are AHEAD economically and can just expand slightly later and pump drones, because their opponent will be forced to get a roach warren and roaches instead of pumping drones. They give up complete map control and are usually in the dark and have to over commit to defense and can't ever move out with their slow roaches because your speedling runby will rape them. Hell, you could even take a fast third base and there isn't much your opponent can do about it until he starts spamming units and cuts drones. But no, these dumb Zerg's don't understand that fact, they just have the simplistic thinking of "he has an expansion faster than I do, guess I gotta cut a thousand drones and go all in in the cheesiest way possible."
End of rant.
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On June 22 2011 00:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Counter-rant:
There's nothing that pisses me off in this game so much as losing to some noob Zerg who knows how to do nothing at all but press the Z button over and over for 10 minutes and a-move. It drives me nuts, because then I am forced to spam Z if I have any hope of being alive, and then the game comes down to "how retarded does my opponent want to be and how long is he going to just keep spamming units at me."
I can't tell you how many times I've lost to some moron who just made a billion zerglings and when I watch the replay I see, "OH... He fast expanded and then literally never made a single drone past 15. Yep, he just made 15 drones and then pressed Z for 5 minutes and hid half of his lings in some corner because he's a cheesy noob who would fail at a macro game if he tried."
The sad thing is these stupid Zergs think they HAVE to all in when they go pool first against hatch first. They don't even realize they are AHEAD economically and can just expand slightly later and pump drones, because their opponent will be forced to get a roach warren and roaches instead of pumping drones. They give up complete map control and are usually in the dark and have to over commit to defense and can't ever move out with their slow roaches because your speedling runby will rape them. But no, these dumb Zerg's don't understand that fact, they just have the simplistic thinking of "he has an expansion faster than I do, guess I gotta cut a thousand drones and go all in in the cheesiest way possible."
End of rant.
agreed
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On June 22 2011 00:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Counter-rant:
There's nothing that pisses me off in this game so much as losing to some noob Zerg who knows how to do nothing at all but press the Z button over and over for 10 minutes and a-move. It drives me nuts, because then I am forced to spam Z if I have any hope of being alive, and then the game comes down to "how retarded does my opponent want to be and how long is he going to just keep spamming units at me."
I can't tell you how many times I've lost to some moron who just made a billion zerglings and when I watch the replay I see, "OH... He fast expanded and then literally never made a single drone past 15. Yep, he just made 15 drones and then pressed Z for 5 minutes and hid half of his lings in some corner because he's a cheesy noob who would fail at a macro game if he tried."
The sad thing is these stupid Zergs think they HAVE to all in when they go pool first against hatch first. They don't even realize they are AHEAD economically and can just expand slightly later and pump drones, because their opponent will be forced to get a roach warren and roaches instead of pumping drones. They give up complete map control and are usually in the dark and have to over commit to defense and can't ever move out with their slow roaches because your speedling runby will rape them. But no, these dumb Zerg's don't understand that fact, they just have the simplistic thinking of "he has an expansion faster than I do, guess I gotta cut a thousand drones and go all in in the cheesiest way possible."
End of rant.
treemonkeys 1:0 jdseemoreglass
over this weekend and in the last few weeks i have grown to like all matchups a lot and seeing koreans play from a first hand perspective (as in being in the game and observing) i really like the thought process that goes like: "if i see an opportunity to kill you, i will do it.", which is very prevalent in the korean style. it slightly steers towards a percentage/coinflip thing but if the flip is biased in your favor, why not take it? it's a bit like gambling and it's not news that sometimes risking a loss can get you closer to a win.
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On June 22 2011 00:52 drooL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 00:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Counter-rant:
There's nothing that pisses me off in this game so much as losing to some noob Zerg who knows how to do nothing at all but press the Z button over and over for 10 minutes and a-move. It drives me nuts, because then I am forced to spam Z if I have any hope of being alive, and then the game comes down to "how retarded does my opponent want to be and how long is he going to just keep spamming units at me."
I can't tell you how many times I've lost to some moron who just made a billion zerglings and when I watch the replay I see, "OH... He fast expanded and then literally never made a single drone past 15. Yep, he just made 15 drones and then pressed Z for 5 minutes and hid half of his lings in some corner because he's a cheesy noob who would fail at a macro game if he tried."
The sad thing is these stupid Zergs think they HAVE to all in when they go pool first against hatch first. They don't even realize they are AHEAD economically and can just expand slightly later and pump drones, because their opponent will be forced to get a roach warren and roaches instead of pumping drones. They give up complete map control and are usually in the dark and have to over commit to defense and can't ever move out with their slow roaches because your speedling runby will rape them. But no, these dumb Zerg's don't understand that fact, they just have the simplistic thinking of "he has an expansion faster than I do, guess I gotta cut a thousand drones and go all in in the cheesiest way possible."
End of rant. treemonkeys 1:0 jdseemoreglass over this weekend and in the last few weeks i have grown to like all matchups a lot and seeing koreans play from a first hand perspective (as in being in the game and observing) i really like the thought process that goes like: "if i see an opportunity to kill you, i will do it.", which is very prevalent in the korean style. it slightly steers towards a percentage/coinflip thing but if the flip is biased in your favor, why not take it? it's a bit like gambling and it's not news that sometimes risking a loss can get you closer to a win.
Except you can't just simply "see an opportunity and kill them" simultaneously. You see an opportunity, and then you have to invest time and resources into an attack, all the while doing nothing but hoping your opponent makes a mistake by not playing defensively in time. Really great players don't gamble and they don't rely on their opponent making mistakes to win.
The reason really good Korean players do this is because they are playing meta-games. They often know their opponents style and plan and build before the game even starts and they can exploit that fact in very specific, refined ways. Which is nothing at all like someone thinking "I hope my hatch first opponent is too bad to hold off this all in..."
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Agreed. So many people complain about ZvZ when they have no fundamental understanding of how the matchup works. Open 14gas/14pool instead of the macro orientated style of other matchups instead of bitching about being out armied.
I blame it on the sudden influx, or so I've felt, of people switching to zerg due to the popularity of Spanishwa builds. They want to treat ZvZ like every other match up and spam drones for 10 minutes and not worry about an army. Then when you mass 40 slings in 5 minutes and ravage their economy they get super pissed. If they scouted and prepared accordingly they wouldn't get so screwed.
ZvZ is very theoretically easy as long as proper techniques are followed. Creating an overlord sight highway is a must. Scouting to see what your opponent does with gas is super important. Banelings? Counter with roaches, etc. A lot of zergs do not do the simple thing of scouting their opponent enough beyond locating them.
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On June 22 2011 01:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 00:52 drooL wrote:On June 22 2011 00:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Counter-rant:
There's nothing that pisses me off in this game so much as losing to some noob Zerg who knows how to do nothing at all but press the Z button over and over for 10 minutes and a-move. It drives me nuts, because then I am forced to spam Z if I have any hope of being alive, and then the game comes down to "how retarded does my opponent want to be and how long is he going to just keep spamming units at me."
I can't tell you how many times I've lost to some moron who just made a billion zerglings and when I watch the replay I see, "OH... He fast expanded and then literally never made a single drone past 15. Yep, he just made 15 drones and then pressed Z for 5 minutes and hid half of his lings in some corner because he's a cheesy noob who would fail at a macro game if he tried."
The sad thing is these stupid Zergs think they HAVE to all in when they go pool first against hatch first. They don't even realize they are AHEAD economically and can just expand slightly later and pump drones, because their opponent will be forced to get a roach warren and roaches instead of pumping drones. They give up complete map control and are usually in the dark and have to over commit to defense and can't ever move out with their slow roaches because your speedling runby will rape them. But no, these dumb Zerg's don't understand that fact, they just have the simplistic thinking of "he has an expansion faster than I do, guess I gotta cut a thousand drones and go all in in the cheesiest way possible."
End of rant. treemonkeys 1:0 jdseemoreglass over this weekend and in the last few weeks i have grown to like all matchups a lot and seeing koreans play from a first hand perspective (as in being in the game and observing) i really like the thought process that goes like: "if i see an opportunity to kill you, i will do it.", which is very prevalent in the korean style. it slightly steers towards a percentage/coinflip thing but if the flip is biased in your favor, why not take it? it's a bit like gambling and it's not news that sometimes risking a loss can get you closer to a win. Except you can't just simply "see an opportunity and kill them" simultaneously. You see an opportunity, and then you have to invest time and resources into an attack, all the while doing nothing but hoping your opponent makes a mistake by not playing defensively in time. Really great players don't gamble and they don't rely on their opponent making mistakes to win. The reason really good Korean players do this is because they are playing meta-games. They often know their opponents style and plan and build before the game even starts and they can exploit that fact in very specific, refined ways. Which is nothing at all like someone thinking "I hope my hatch first opponent is too bad to hold off this all in..."
Sometimes you can though, for example if I see no roach warren, baneling nest, or spine crawlers even started and he has a drone lead because I built defensive lings (all too common) I know I can pressure with my lings while reinforcing with more and he has to either match my lings which I will back off and drone up or he dies. The funny flip side is sometimes they build like 2-3 spine crawlers when I only have 4 lings, then I just drone up like a mad man. I play all match ups based on scouting, in ZvZ you should be poking with a ling pretty much on a constant basis until they have enough defense to block it and people who don't do this can be punished severely and I really enjoy people who BM me for winning because they didn't scout properly or prepare for risks.
There are fairly easy ways to stop it, well placed roaches, spine crawler with good sim city, well placed queens, two well placed banelings. There is no good reason to lose to pure speedling in ZvZ and it is easy to recognize if people just don't prepare at all. People are just super greedy and then blame their opponent for being retarded when they lose, yeah it's my fault I killed you.
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EPT
