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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On January 02 2011 12:52 tryummm wrote: Children also are not taught much about the subconscious mind (its programming is responsible for 98% of your actions) I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, but where'd you get that number from? :p | ||
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Malgrif
Canada1095 Posts
On January 02 2011 23:23 Orome wrote: I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, but where'd you get that number from? :p i assume he got it from his subconscious :p i don't think america has as big as a problem as some people point out, the universities/colleges are still competitive as fuck. those kids that are failing in the video seem to be failing because they don't have proper discipline and schools literally cannot teach discipline, that's up to the parents and the parents are just blaming the schools for their short comings. i'm not a parent myself, but coming from a poor family i do understand how discipline and hard work builds character. | ||
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
Also I think as early as primary school and through the early years of high school there should be classes on study skills and also reasons for studying. What benefits you get from doing well at school and then university. Not necessarily telling them you'll get a job at the end, but telling them they'll develop intellectually, enjoy studying the subject they find themselves drawn to, be better equipped for life and so on. So many people go through primary and secondary without anyone really sitting down and telling them what the benefits and purposes of it are. Mainly its just...well state funded and by law you must go for like 14 years of your life and thats it. No real motivation factor. Therefore people think others are geeks when they actually do what they are there for. When in fact everyone should be striving for intellectual growth in school. If there is no motivation how can you expect students to attend, listen and study and be disciplined. Thats the problem in my country and I speak being as one who spent high school playing SC and CS:S and the only studying i done for any test, even the important ones. Was about an hour or 2. Now I go to the second best uni in the country and I'm doing well because I have purpose for being there and getting the degree. | ||
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TunaFishyMe
Canada150 Posts
On January 02 2011 12:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: [/spoiler]One thing my school is good for though, is being ridiculously hard on engineeers, so they learn to be more productive. But other than that, I'm going to come out of this school with less practical knowledge than I would have had I gone to community college... not to mention, probably a higher GPA to find jobs with. I'm also an engineer. (from Queen's) University doesn't teach you practical knowledge. It is much more theoretical. The reason being, is that you need to understand the theory before you can learn how to solve problems. And 4 years is not going to bring you any close to industry standing for cutting edge technology. It is enough to build the foundations for you to build upon in your work-term, or first job. I have no problems with the core skills but I think they should offer more communication and presentation courses. this is something I find they lack in engineering. | ||
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ghrur
United States3785 Posts
On January 02 2011 21:02 Underwhelmed wrote: Too bad your school doesn't have a top of the line critical thinking team LOL Do they teach the concept of averages at your school? Are you seriously trying to cherry pick the top performers and claim they're an accurate representation of the American educational system as a whole? Never mind math, even your listening comprehension is wrong. I think you've made your point, just not the one you were trying to make. I like your dig at me for critical thinking. Very nice ad hominem. Too bad I never even stated that I was on the top of the line math team, so insulting me doesn't reduce the credibility of the people who are on it. Still, classy. It's ironic you speak of cherry picking when you completely ignored the post I quoted. Did you not understand that the video most likely cherry picked its subject to further illustrate its point? Furthermore, you talk of averages. What do you define as average? If I were to go out into the street and pick random samples, would I be sampling the average American? But that depends on the street! I doubt it'd work if I were outside of Wall Street interviewing Ivy League graduates in Business and Econ. I doubt it'd also work if I were outside of 42nd Street in Chicago or something and were interviewing poor, underprivileged minorities. So seriously, tell me, how do you FIND this average? As for the video itself, which I was mainly talking about, do you honestly believe they gave you the average kids? It mainly included of black kids, but if it were accurate to the demographics of the United States, they would have included 65% Whites, 12.5% Blacks, 11.8% Hispanics, and 4.5% Asians. Yeah, I highly doubt they used those percentages at all when they filmed their sample. This brings me to your "using the top" point. I don't understand how I said in any way that the top performers should be the representation of the American educational system. You're just unfairly extrapolating my statements there. For the first part, I was merely stating that the top kids in America hardly get represented at all! For the part about the top Universities, I was comparing them to other top Universities in the world *even explicitly so* and saying they're doing well in that regard. Nowhere did I say the top are doing well, so all others must be too. It's simply that I don't have a problem with our college educational system. After all, if the others are doing poorly and the top are excelling, then just work harder to get into the top Universities. | ||
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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
On January 02 2011 23:39 Malgrif wrote: i assume he got it from his subconscious :p i don't think america has as big as a problem as some people point out, the universities/colleges are still competitive as fuck. those kids that are failing in the video seem to be failing because they don't have proper discipline and schools literally cannot teach discipline, that's up to the parents and the parents are just blaming the schools for their short comings. i'm not a parent myself, but coming from a poor family i do understand how discipline and hard work builds character. Largely true, but at the same time parents aren't punished for their kids being undisciplined. The system works to punish the kids, the teachers, and the schools. Parents are completely without responsibility. If it were up to me, there would be some sort of punishment for skipping school, getting in trouble, and doing poorly for the parents. Heck, give them a fine if their kid fails a grade, skips school, or gets expelled or something. That'll solve the problem real quick when mommy or daddy has to pay up when their kid screws off. It also is like saying "hey, if you want to raise someone who won't be beneficial to society then you're going to pay the price." Another unrelated problem is the fact that schools keep kids in classes way too long. Kids literally have to sit in classes for 6/7+ hours. Many of us are in college, but how many of us in college actually have 7 hours of classes in a row. Sure I might spend upwards 10-12 hours on work a day sometimes, or even more, but that's not sitting in a classroom. Maybe 3 hours of that is in a classroom. It's really really hard to learn when you're literally trapped in a place for so long every day. It definitely feels more like a prison than a learning institution. I think a longer school day is fine for elementary school, since most of elementary school is silly stuff, but once high school rolls around I don't see the benefit. I'd rather see high school be more like 4 hours of core classes and then optional elective classes for another 2-4 hours. In the end it'd actually be pretty similar, but it wouldn't obligate students to a massive schoolday. We always dicked off a lot in class too cause it was the only way to make that much time seem bearable. I could literally write a book on what I'd fix, but then I'd be passing up on some serious profit =P | ||
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Redux
United States21 Posts
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news
892 Posts
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diggurd
Norway346 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_method http://krishnamurti-and-education.org/what_is_a_krishnamurti_school.htm it may be wrong thread, but it has something to do with the way we're educated? | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On January 03 2011 04:16 news wrote: Getting into a University should be restricted to great students only. This way highest education would not be as inflated as it is now. This will also give a boost to technical schools and specialized colleges, they can concentrate on preparing students to work in specific fields and attain that 'real-life experience' that OP was raving about. People like him should not be studying at universities to begin with. OP, here Yes, I'll agree with this statement. Some universities should be restricted to those who want to get into grad school and have the skills necessary to make it there. I had no idea what University was like when I was applying. I just applied because everyone was doing it. I haven't gained too much practical knowledge that I think I can use. I talked to one of my professors about the issue and he says that the useless courses are taught to us because it helps us to develop critical thinking skills, the grey matter in our brains. He also says that while we may not need to memorize differential equations, we should understand them and be able to interpret what our computer program gives us. The problem in Canada though, is that all engineering students are held to this standard. In order to graduate as an engineer, a student must take X math type A courses, and Y science tybe B courses... that's why we learn so much useless shit. In the end, I think I'll have to learn everything on the job... this is what everyone says happens... that University is just good for a piece of paper. I don't think it should be this way. I watched the video posted, but it's outdated (from before the writing section on the SAT 1996) and sensationalist. Therefore it's a bit hard to take seriously. From personal experience, I have seen too many students drop out and fail in my public schooling (states middle to high school), too many students have been left behind. Therefore I do acknowledge that there is some truth to the video. One could say that the students' failing is due to the conditions of their home environments, and that improvements in schools wouldn't help. I think my high school did something really well, students that performed extremely poorly had to take vocational classes and "disciplinary classes." As a math tutor, I came into some of these classes as part of a school experiment, to see if I could help these students directly in their classes. I wanted to take that class with them! They were learning useful skills. I don't want to make my wall of text any bigger so this will have to do as a response for now. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
It's probably mostly discipline. My classmates complain about their low marks, or bad teachers, and then don't study at all. They go out and play games, get food, whatever, instead of studying, then do really badly and expect the teacher to hand them marks. One group was complaining about their terrible marks in math during math class, and the teacher called them out for it; something along the lines of, if you're getting bad marks in math, why are you talking in math class? They would rather socialize than study. Or they will study at the last moment knowing that cramming doesn't work for them. Cramming does work for some, not for these kids. I also know of people who are on Facebook the night before assignments are due, and complaining about the assignment instead of doing it. It sickens me, but it's their character, not the school. I don't feel the school needs to provide any sort of motivation. Wall of text. oO | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
On January 03 2011 08:08 Blisse wrote: What university are you at OP? I'm scared. It's probably mostly discipline. My classmates complain about their low marks, or bad teachers, and then don't study at all. They go out and play games, get food, whatever, instead of studying, then do really badly and expect the teacher to hand them marks. One group was complaining about their terrible marks in math during math class, and the teacher called them out for it; something along the lines of, if you're getting bad marks in math, why are you talking in math class? They would rather socialize than study. Or they will study at the last moment knowing that cramming doesn't work for them. Cramming does work for some, not for these kids. I also know of people who are on Facebook the night before assignments are due, and complaining about the assignment instead of doing it. It sickens me, but it's their character, not the school. I don't feel the school needs to provide any sort of motivation. Wall of text. oO You've got a point. Is the education system itself bad, or are the students just lazy fucks? Probably not the latter in the OP's case, but I have to say there are a lot of people who don't do shit in the way of studying or aren't too smart but also expect to get an A in their courses or else they start complaining. "Course is too hard" or "teacher doesn't teach". | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On January 03 2011 08:08 Blisse wrote: What university are you at OP? I'm scared. I'm at the University of Toronto studying computer engineering. I was trying to hide the identity of the University because I thought it wouldn't be useful. What makes it sound so scary? I don't think I've described any of the aspects of the curriculum that would make it sound scary...just bad. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
"Competition is not for kids, its not for public education, it just won't work" What utter bullshit. Kids should ALWAYS be driven to be competitive. Competitiveness and a motivation to be productive be the winner is what turned the human race from monkies into what we are now. Hard work from a drive to succeed is present in every single successful person. Public shit will never work unless it imposes high standards and the ruthless world of capitalism is the best way to just clean all out all this union bullshit. Whatever you say about "white well groomed belgian kids" vs "an obvious minority". There is probably like 99% white people in belgium. Also, 75% average vs 45% average or w/e is huge, because its usually really fucking easy to pass and it gets progressively harder to score points in these kinds of these, because they want to reward excellence without punishing mediocrity. Anyone who's ever played any kind of team game will know that the only way to get people to improve is to make them realize how bad they are to activate that primal desire to win. Saying its the parents fault or whatever is nonsense. If the parents have to intervene something is probably wrong anyway. The only thing you should have to do at home is homework, and that should be kept to a minimum since frankly with the amount of hours the schools with these kids they should be able to get most of practical work done IN the class when they can ask questions and directly get help. Schools should probably have at least a dedicated hour of study where kids can do homework and ask teachers for help anyway. These parents are working 12 hours a day they shouldn't have to do anything when the kid is home except for getting his homework done. Even then, just school should be enough to effectively educate these kids. | ||
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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
On January 03 2011 11:08 Slayer91 wrote: Saying its the parents fault or whatever is nonsense. If the parents have to intervene something is probably wrong anyway. The only thing you should have to do at home is homework, and that should be kept to a minimum since frankly with the amount of hours the schools with these kids they should be able to get most of practical work done IN the class when they can ask questions and directly get help. Schools should probably have at least a dedicated hour of study where kids can do homework and ask teachers for help anyway. These parents are working 12 hours a day they shouldn't have to do anything when the kid is home except for getting his homework done. Even then, just school should be enough to effectively educate these kids. So parents shouldn't have to actually parent? I don't get what you're saying. You know what's a good motivator for a kid to do well? A belt. Seriously, a parent should constantly be pushing their kids to do more and be better. You make it sound like parents shouldn't be teaching their kids anything and that's what schools are for. Parents are the ultimate teachers. Teachers are supplements, feeding academic information to a child. Parents teach about life, and by saying that "teachers are responsible it's not my problem" they're actually teaching their kids to be lazy, make excuses, and not accept responsibility. I suspect you're probably just a kid yourself. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
I also strongly believe that math should be given a different face. From an early age most people despise anything math-related. I've met a large number of people who shut their brains off the moment their hear anything number-related. Math, like foreign languages and sports, need a LOT of practice. The best advice I ever got in my advanced calculus courses was "do a lot of problems". While this does get increasingly difficult to do when you get into higher-leveled college math, elementary math through advanced algebra (and even basic calculus) has a wealth of practice problems to hone your skills and use class to better understand the concepts. Instead, I feel that American schools treat math as an unliked subject that should be endured (like hard times or torture) instead of mastered (like a fine art or a sport). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On January 03 2011 13:04 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: So parents shouldn't have to actually parent? I don't get what you're saying. You know what's a good motivator for a kid to do well? A belt. Seriously, a parent should constantly be pushing their kids to do more and be better. You make it sound like parents shouldn't be teaching their kids anything and that's what schools are for. Parents are the ultimate teachers. Teachers are supplements, feeding academic information to a child. Parents teach about life, and by saying that "teachers are responsible it's not my problem" they're actually teaching their kids to be lazy, make excuses, and not accept responsibility. I suspect you're probably just a kid yourself. Suggestion that parents should beat their kids. Unfounded wrong assumption that I am a kid. Nice. Of course the parent is the ultimate teacher, but right now they only have a handful of hours to spent with their kids and the teachers have a lot more. Also; if its academic, its the schools responsibility, the parents can handle some discipline or whatever, but if kids aren't learning probably at school there is a BIG problem. Oh, if you think a belt should be a motivator for school then you're part of the fucking problem motiviation for school is obvious for any university student but not for any schoolgoing kid but why? | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
German education is quite good imho, at least the education i got was, and it was even just a small school in a town of 2500 people. Though even there it was obvious that it was getting worse, as the teachers that really tried to teach with passion got burned out because they just had too much to do. I heard that my favourite teacher had a nervous breakdown a while after i finished school, which still makes me sad. | ||
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itzme_petey
United States1400 Posts
There is nothing wrong with the education system if you live in a rich area. I remember visiting areas like Katy or Sugarland (nicer parts of Houston MSA). Students there are being groomed for college as soon as they arrive as 9th graders. Unfortunately, I came from a poor area named Alief. While teachers were just as good, the attitude of certain students made it hard to take school seriously. You know who makes it hard to learn? Kids that are not motivated and plan on living pay check to pay check. They will bring down the whole classroom with their behavior. Therefore, the only escape is enrolling in Pre-AP or AP classes. While the poor students with bad attitudes are not 100% to blame for their economic situation, they are 100% to blame for their motivation. If parents can not teach their children to get educated then its a moot point if we restructure the education system. I do not cry at night because a retard in school never took the time to put in the hardwork. Everyone needs cheap labor at McDonalds. I just made sure it wasnt me.. | ||
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
But most importantly it would be one system for all across the board. Students would be constantly have there answers checked via computerised entry of there exercises so focused teaching to help students in certain areas with teachers could be focused rather then students having to sit through lessons which could have just been recorded and played back like a YouTube video. There are some initiatives like this in various countries the last one I heard about on the news was one where they made edutainment games to teach the kids and it was being really effective. Eventually you'd had a Star Trek Vulcan school system where teachers just monitor the kids who are in booths learning tonnes of stuff. Once it gets fleshed out and refined we'd have super smart kids all over. | ||
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