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I recently made the switch from Protoss to Zerg and have been getting my ass kicked a lot, which I fully expected. I'm working on my Zerg play and it improves with every match, but I wonder which is the better way to practice - through BO repetition or drilling fundamentals.
I learned Protoss through BO repetition. I picked the 4 Gate (later switched to 3 gate robo) and I just played that every single game. I fought my way up to Platinum and then considered switching to Zerg.
As Zerg, I'm just working on keeping my money low, not getting supply capped and spawning larva constantly. I'm not worrying about anything else. I lose games because of things like poor scouting, but as long as I did those 3 well, I feel okay about the loss. I plan to drill those things in until I'm losing based on reasons other than not having enough shit.
Now that I look back on my progress through the races, it seems like my Protoss advancement happened much faster than my Zerg advancement, but my Zerg advancement feels more thorough. I feel like a better player, even if I'm ranked lower.
When I just worked the same BO over and over, I began to falter badly after that BO had run it's course. If I did a 3 gate robo and was unable to seal the deal before the 15th minute, I would lock up and not really know what to do. I didn't have a concrete plan for spending money or teching up and I would lose the game to an opponent who did know.
Now that I'm just working on money, supply and larva, I feel a bit sloppier in the early game, but my mid and late game is much stronger. I'm finding ways to spend all of that money since I care more about that than I do about the win.
On TL, it seems a lot of people recommend picking a BO and just perfecting that, but I didn't feel that paid off too well for me as Protoss. It brought me to Platinum, and then the holes in my game became readily apparent. If I didn't seal the deal at the 15 minute mark, I was always outclassed. I think I'll be a more well rounded player by working on the basics until I'm no longer losing because my basics are subpar, and then switching to refined openings, proper scouting, proper transitions, etc.
 
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Since beta, I didn't really memorized any BO's , yes I know BO's but I always practiced for my fundamentals, when your fundamentals are good enough you can do any BO or tweak them as you like.
So I'm in favor of practicing fundamentals.
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I play protoss and highly recommend BO's.
The problem is we don't have that many good maps for that.
So maybe stick to some maps if it helps.
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On October 08 2010 06:33 PangO wrote:
I play protoss and highly recommend BO's.
The problem is we don't have that many good maps for that.
So maybe stick to some maps if it helps.
Why do you recommend BOs?
Like I said, I feel like I would fail horribly once the BO was complete and my opponent wasn't dead. How do you continue after the BO has run its course and you need to start being more dynamic?
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Calgary26004 Posts
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish.
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It's not that hard to perfect your mechanics (fundamentals) and learn a certain build order. at least one single solid-safe build order will get you far. Like chill said, you need both, if a certain BO needs a lot of hotkeying/multitasking can you actually execute it?
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On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish.
Chill nailed it.
You have to practice a BO. Without a solid one, the best fundamentals in the world won't mean jack.
You have to build your fundamentals. Without them, the best BO in the world won't mean jack.
Best thing you can do: Pick one solid BO that works across all three matchups (14 gas, 14 pool, for example) and religiously drill it. This way you'll develop both your BO knowledge, and your fundamental ability to execute the BO.
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United States33713 Posts
Are you suggesting that you don't use RTS fundamentals when you perform a build order? I don't get it. Fundamentals are in play at all times. If you're not macroing, microing, scouting and adapting while you perform a strategy/BO, then you're performing that BO correctly.
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The two aren't mutually exclusive. You should practice the hell out of a build order and work on your fundamentals within the context of that BO. Your build should include a key scouting point and a few loose transitions to choose from depending on what you scout, and from there it's nothing but fundamentals. A build order should set you up for a good macro game, defend against cheese and early aggression, and allow you to scout; you shouldn't be relying on it to win you the game. Along the same lines, you shouldn't expect to win just by making random units and not scouting. Both are important.
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On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish.
True, so perhaps I should rephrase the question as "For a shitty player trying to take those first steps towards not being shitty, which is more important to be done first?"
In the long run, I'd like to have both down well enough to have some self respect, but with my skills as low as they are, I don't think I can work both of them simultaneously and am wondering which one should I work first.
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On October 08 2010 06:44 visual77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish. True, so perhaps I should rephrase the question as "For a shitty player trying to take those first steps towards not being shitty, which is more important to be done first?" In the long run, I'd like to have both down well enough to have some self respect, but with my skills as low as they are, I don't think I can work both of them simultaneously and am wondering which one should I work first.
You can't have one without the other.
Pick a BO and practice it. Your mechanics will develop by virtue of playing the game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2010 06:44 visual77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish. True, so perhaps I should rephrase the question as "For a shitty player trying to take those first steps towards not being shitty, which is more important to be done first?" In the long run, I'd like to have both down well enough to have some self respect, but with my skills as low as they are, I don't think I can work both of them simultaneously and am wondering which one should I work first.
Well, if you like to practice your fundamental first (micro, macro, proper use of hotkeys etc.) then you should at least have one solid opening with that. For me, when I played SC:BW I always practiced the proper use of hotkeys then someone mentored me with the proper BO for each match ups.
But still if you're going to practice fundamentals might as well grind it out with one single solid opening/BO.
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Still, as zerg is more about "fundamentals" than BO seeing how you can theorycraft the best BO in the world but you still need to adapt ALL THE TIME. So just 14 pool 20 hatch and ladder, ladder, ladder.
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If you're really low level (like <1000 diamond) then you don't really need to think too much, Just play lots of games and get comfortable with just building stuff. You need to practice quite a bit to get your mind focused on multiple tasks at once.
Of course if you're tired or a bit bored, you can read up some strategy or watch some high level games to get a general idea of how things should be done.
In BW I saw some people do an opening then just freestyle it. I saw others learn a single BO to 100 supply and try perfect it. The better players in the end were simply the ones who had played more.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On October 08 2010 06:44 visual77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish. True, so perhaps I should rephrase the question as "For a shitty player trying to take those first steps towards not being shitty, which is more important to be done first?" In the long run, I'd like to have both down well enough to have some self respect, but with my skills as low as they are, I don't think I can work both of them simultaneously and am wondering which one should I work first.
Fundamentals. People talking about mutual exclusivity are missing the point in my eyes. Things like practicing accurate clicking, increasing hand speed, and general fundamentals take conscious thought to improve effectively. You'll get some benefit in them by just practicing build orders, but it will take much longer to see improvement.
Once you have fundamentals you can do anything; however, going fundamentals-first will mean you lose more than if you just learned some build orders. It will also take much longer.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:02 Nytefish wrote:
The better players in the end were simply the ones who had played more.
I vehemently disagree with this statement.
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On October 08 2010 07:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 06:44 visual77 wrote:On October 08 2010 06:39 Chill wrote:
"Is it better to practice your breakaway move or workout at the gym?"
Impossible question. You need both, and each one is better depending on what you want to accomplish. True, so perhaps I should rephrase the question as "For a shitty player trying to take those first steps towards not being shitty, which is more important to be done first?" In the long run, I'd like to have both down well enough to have some self respect, but with my skills as low as they are, I don't think I can work both of them simultaneously and am wondering which one should I work first. Fundamentals. People talking about mutual exclusivity are missing the point in my eyes. Things like practicing accurate clicking, increasing hand speed, and general fundamentals take conscious thought to improve effectively. Once you have fundamentals you can do anything; however, going fundamentals-first will mean you lose more than if you just learned some build orders. It will also take much longer.
Yeah, it's definitely been more losses than wins, but I do feel like I'm improving in a more solid way than I was as Protoss. I don't really mind losses. I just want to be better than I was last week, not better than the other guy.
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On October 08 2010 07:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 07:02 Nytefish wrote:
The better players in the end were simply the ones who had played more. I vehemently disagree with this statement.
Well I'm not surprised, everything I say just comes from what D- players I observed. It's unlikely I conducted a thorough and scientific test to support my conclusion.
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Focus on fundamentals while playing stable openings that let you transition well into the midgame instead of doing a mass warpgate all in.
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I've played more then friends of mine that are better then me and i've better then other who played more ;o
So you definitely learn better by doing certain things. For me the most helpful thing is to do the same build order over and over and focus at learning one thing at the time that I feel need improvement. It works well.
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EPT
