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modern control engineering and starcraft

Blogs > exeexe
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exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-02 00:03:15
October 01 2010 23:51 GMT
#1
Rofl i just came to think about something that could be a funny correlance.
Im gonna talk about modern control engineering (MCE) and after that im gonna talk about the funny correlance between MCE and starcraft.

MCE:
+ Show Spoiler +

In MCE you make like a bode diagram like this:
[image loading]
For the untrained eye its very confusing but its very effective for the guy who knows what its about. Basically we are gonna use the upper part so just ignore the phase thingy.

The bode diagram works in that way that you have a system, then you give that system an input and out of the system you get an output. Then you compare the output with the input.

And then you get a closed loop, because you start with input and you end up by the input again like this:
[image loading]

So the comparing between the input and the output will give the gain which is the vertical axis on the bode diagram and on horisontal axis there is the frequency. So basically what you do is you put an input and test it at different frequencies. The result will show up as a dot in the bode diagram and with enough dots you can draw a line.

The frequency is often depicted on a logaritmic scale, so the numbers goes like this 1 10 100 1000 etc..
This means the frequency can be very small when it crosses the vertical axis.

The area of interest in a bode diagram is when the gain changes value. So for a certain frequency band you get interesting stuff while the gain outside of this intersting band is just trivial, so thats why you dont have to draw the bode diagram with a frequency of infinity.

So this is a very short introduction and there a tons of more stuff to say about this but i have no time, and i proberbly forgot to mention a lot of stuff too xD so sry if it didnt make sense.


MCE and starcraft:
So i thought hey maybe you can combine the principles from MCE and make sort of a bode diagram of starcraft xD

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0
The frequency would be the apm. Do you follow me?
Then the Bode diagram of starcraft would be like this:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Red = zerg
green = terran
blue = protoss


The brown areas are the band of interest. As you can see there is the band of iccup and the very narrow band of pro. My theory is that if it was possible to go beyond the band of pro then starcraft would no longer be balanced, and the reason why we would like to think that starcraft is balanced is because at pro level all 3 gains for each race crosses each other.
The protoss has units that cant inflict damage unless you micro them (HT to mention one). Thats why i decided to put protoss in the negative at very low apm. But protoss quickly catch up because its easier to macro as protoss.
The gain of the terran race will continue to grow beyond the pro-band because their units are so strong but in order to utilise that power you need to micro them, and you need to micro them more than the units of the 2 other races, but also the advantage are bigger. Luckely for the bw scene that state of imbaness lies out of human reach, but it is there, in my beleive.

Also the bode diagram for starcraft may have been distorted at some parts but its so hard to draw in paint and with logaritmic scale lol. I still think though that the bode diagram that i managed to create displays my thoughts to an acceptable level.

Also dont take it litteraly because there still are a lot of things that needs to be taking into consideration like decission making and scouting, so you should only take this very generally.

So what do you think, do i have a point? o.0

Also i have like no experience in zvt...

****
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
October 02 2010 00:04 GMT
#2
haha pretty interesting . I actually like it, and you make some good points about the bands.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4209 Posts
October 02 2010 00:52 GMT
#3
Personally, I think Z would be the most imbalanced race..... Thanks to the larvae mechanic. If you can't see why, well, yea.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 02:45:13
October 03 2010 02:44 GMT
#4
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.

The main issue is that nobody has APM (skills) beyond the "pro band," so we can't extrapolate the gain function accurately. Any type of guess of ability given whatever APM level in that region is just like anybody else guessing, with or without diagrams.

edit: but of course I'm taking the analogy too seriously, I know.
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
October 03 2010 03:03 GMT
#5
On October 03 2010 11:44 Myrmidon wrote:
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.


ISBN 0-13-043245-8
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 03:16:53
October 03 2010 03:12 GMT
#6
Hm, all I know is that my professor made the distinction between classical and modern control theory in the way I did. In my one-semester class, we had classical control theory for 90% of the class and then a brief intro to state space representations in the last 10%. It also seems to match with what wikipedia says. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if many control theory books began with classical control theory, since that's the order in which it's usually taught, at least in the USA.

edit: on a side note, my professor was from the UK, though granted I don't think he would be using terminology that isn't common in the States.

It's an interesting subject though.

Originally I thought you were going to explain game flow as a control problem, though. Scouting gives you feedback, so you have closed-loop control. Just another thought.
NevilleS
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada266 Posts
October 03 2010 06:44 GMT
#7
Modern control theory is definitely inclined towards state space. No offense OP but an apm vs race effectiveness graph is hardly a way to model starcraft using control theory... After all, the presence of variations in gain is hardly something specific to controls, it is something all scientists are concerned with (finding ways to model natural behavior with mathematical relationships). The key of the bode plot is that it can be used to infer control parameters such as system stability, gain margins, etc.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 07:27:03
October 03 2010 07:21 GMT
#8
I did my undergrad in Systems Engineering and what you said in the OP doesn't make much sense.

First of all, as most people have pointed out, the frequency-domains analysis falls under classical control theory (modern control theory uses time-domain state-space representation).

Going along with frequency analysis, this part doesn't make sense at all....

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0


At least I can't think of a good way to connect Starcraft and control theories.

This is how I would picture a closed-loop system if I had to:
- the game itself is the system rather than the race
- the inputs would be your commands
- the outputs would be the various game states
- you would simultaneously supply the input, be the controller and the sensor

edit:
You can make anything "work" by making a plethora of arbitrary assumptions; at the end of the day, you have to realize that applications for control theories are not limitless, and they aren't applicable to everything in our daily lives.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
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