• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:05
CET 00:05
KST 08:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)11Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1911 users

modern control engineering and starcraft

Blogs > exeexe
Post a Reply
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-02 00:03:15
October 01 2010 23:51 GMT
#1
Rofl i just came to think about something that could be a funny correlance.
Im gonna talk about modern control engineering (MCE) and after that im gonna talk about the funny correlance between MCE and starcraft.

MCE:
+ Show Spoiler +

In MCE you make like a bode diagram like this:
[image loading]
For the untrained eye its very confusing but its very effective for the guy who knows what its about. Basically we are gonna use the upper part so just ignore the phase thingy.

The bode diagram works in that way that you have a system, then you give that system an input and out of the system you get an output. Then you compare the output with the input.

And then you get a closed loop, because you start with input and you end up by the input again like this:
[image loading]

So the comparing between the input and the output will give the gain which is the vertical axis on the bode diagram and on horisontal axis there is the frequency. So basically what you do is you put an input and test it at different frequencies. The result will show up as a dot in the bode diagram and with enough dots you can draw a line.

The frequency is often depicted on a logaritmic scale, so the numbers goes like this 1 10 100 1000 etc..
This means the frequency can be very small when it crosses the vertical axis.

The area of interest in a bode diagram is when the gain changes value. So for a certain frequency band you get interesting stuff while the gain outside of this intersting band is just trivial, so thats why you dont have to draw the bode diagram with a frequency of infinity.

So this is a very short introduction and there a tons of more stuff to say about this but i have no time, and i proberbly forgot to mention a lot of stuff too xD so sry if it didnt make sense.


MCE and starcraft:
So i thought hey maybe you can combine the principles from MCE and make sort of a bode diagram of starcraft xD

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0
The frequency would be the apm. Do you follow me?
Then the Bode diagram of starcraft would be like this:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Red = zerg
green = terran
blue = protoss


The brown areas are the band of interest. As you can see there is the band of iccup and the very narrow band of pro. My theory is that if it was possible to go beyond the band of pro then starcraft would no longer be balanced, and the reason why we would like to think that starcraft is balanced is because at pro level all 3 gains for each race crosses each other.
The protoss has units that cant inflict damage unless you micro them (HT to mention one). Thats why i decided to put protoss in the negative at very low apm. But protoss quickly catch up because its easier to macro as protoss.
The gain of the terran race will continue to grow beyond the pro-band because their units are so strong but in order to utilise that power you need to micro them, and you need to micro them more than the units of the 2 other races, but also the advantage are bigger. Luckely for the bw scene that state of imbaness lies out of human reach, but it is there, in my beleive.

Also the bode diagram for starcraft may have been distorted at some parts but its so hard to draw in paint and with logaritmic scale lol. I still think though that the bode diagram that i managed to create displays my thoughts to an acceptable level.

Also dont take it litteraly because there still are a lot of things that needs to be taking into consideration like decission making and scouting, so you should only take this very generally.

So what do you think, do i have a point? o.0

Also i have like no experience in zvt...

****
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
October 02 2010 00:04 GMT
#2
haha pretty interesting . I actually like it, and you make some good points about the bands.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4212 Posts
October 02 2010 00:52 GMT
#3
Personally, I think Z would be the most imbalanced race..... Thanks to the larvae mechanic. If you can't see why, well, yea.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 02:45:13
October 03 2010 02:44 GMT
#4
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.

The main issue is that nobody has APM (skills) beyond the "pro band," so we can't extrapolate the gain function accurately. Any type of guess of ability given whatever APM level in that region is just like anybody else guessing, with or without diagrams.

edit: but of course I'm taking the analogy too seriously, I know.
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
October 03 2010 03:03 GMT
#5
On October 03 2010 11:44 Myrmidon wrote:
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.


ISBN 0-13-043245-8
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 03:16:53
October 03 2010 03:12 GMT
#6
Hm, all I know is that my professor made the distinction between classical and modern control theory in the way I did. In my one-semester class, we had classical control theory for 90% of the class and then a brief intro to state space representations in the last 10%. It also seems to match with what wikipedia says. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if many control theory books began with classical control theory, since that's the order in which it's usually taught, at least in the USA.

edit: on a side note, my professor was from the UK, though granted I don't think he would be using terminology that isn't common in the States.

It's an interesting subject though.

Originally I thought you were going to explain game flow as a control problem, though. Scouting gives you feedback, so you have closed-loop control. Just another thought.
NevilleS
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada266 Posts
October 03 2010 06:44 GMT
#7
Modern control theory is definitely inclined towards state space. No offense OP but an apm vs race effectiveness graph is hardly a way to model starcraft using control theory... After all, the presence of variations in gain is hardly something specific to controls, it is something all scientists are concerned with (finding ways to model natural behavior with mathematical relationships). The key of the bode plot is that it can be used to infer control parameters such as system stability, gain margins, etc.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 07:27:03
October 03 2010 07:21 GMT
#8
I did my undergrad in Systems Engineering and what you said in the OP doesn't make much sense.

First of all, as most people have pointed out, the frequency-domains analysis falls under classical control theory (modern control theory uses time-domain state-space representation).

Going along with frequency analysis, this part doesn't make sense at all....

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0


At least I can't think of a good way to connect Starcraft and control theories.

This is how I would picture a closed-loop system if I had to:
- the game itself is the system rather than the race
- the inputs would be your commands
- the outputs would be the various game states
- you would simultaneously supply the input, be the controller and the sensor

edit:
You can make anything "work" by making a plethora of arbitrary assumptions; at the end of the day, you have to realize that applications for control theories are not limitless, and they aren't applicable to everything in our daily lives.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
Non-Korean Championship
ZZZero.O337
LiquipediaDiscussion
IPSL
20:00
Ro4 Set 2
DragOn vs Sziky
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 211
JuggernautJason136
Nathanias 114
UpATreeSC 60
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 337
Artosis 154
Dota 2
syndereN351
420jenkins241
capcasts67
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m6747
summit1g3864
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu469
Other Games
FrodaN7608
tarik_tv5044
Grubby3047
Liquid`RaSZi2853
ToD257
KnowMe178
ArmadaUGS166
Maynarde66
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5625
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 42
• Sammyuel 6
• musti20045 6
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 20
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5226
Other Games
• imaqtpie2197
• Shiphtur251
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
9h 55m
Wardi Open
14h 55m
Monday Night Weeklies
17h 55m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 12h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
All Star Teams
5 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
[ Show More ]
All Star Teams
6 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-10
Big Gabe Cup #3
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-01-11
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.