• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:47
CET 22:47
KST 06:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
BSL Season 223Vitality ends partnership with ONSYDE20Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice6Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza2Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0
StarCraft 2
General
GSL CK - new tournament Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza Vitality ends partnership with ONSYDE How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ battle.net problems ASL21 General Discussion BSL Season 22 BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10
Tourneys
ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement [BSL22] Open Qualifier #1 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Mexico's Drug War Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
ONE GREAT AMERICAN MARINE…
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2444 users

modern control engineering and starcraft

Blogs > exeexe
Post a Reply
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-02 00:03:15
October 01 2010 23:51 GMT
#1
Rofl i just came to think about something that could be a funny correlance.
Im gonna talk about modern control engineering (MCE) and after that im gonna talk about the funny correlance between MCE and starcraft.

MCE:
+ Show Spoiler +

In MCE you make like a bode diagram like this:
[image loading]
For the untrained eye its very confusing but its very effective for the guy who knows what its about. Basically we are gonna use the upper part so just ignore the phase thingy.

The bode diagram works in that way that you have a system, then you give that system an input and out of the system you get an output. Then you compare the output with the input.

And then you get a closed loop, because you start with input and you end up by the input again like this:
[image loading]

So the comparing between the input and the output will give the gain which is the vertical axis on the bode diagram and on horisontal axis there is the frequency. So basically what you do is you put an input and test it at different frequencies. The result will show up as a dot in the bode diagram and with enough dots you can draw a line.

The frequency is often depicted on a logaritmic scale, so the numbers goes like this 1 10 100 1000 etc..
This means the frequency can be very small when it crosses the vertical axis.

The area of interest in a bode diagram is when the gain changes value. So for a certain frequency band you get interesting stuff while the gain outside of this intersting band is just trivial, so thats why you dont have to draw the bode diagram with a frequency of infinity.

So this is a very short introduction and there a tons of more stuff to say about this but i have no time, and i proberbly forgot to mention a lot of stuff too xD so sry if it didnt make sense.


MCE and starcraft:
So i thought hey maybe you can combine the principles from MCE and make sort of a bode diagram of starcraft xD

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0
The frequency would be the apm. Do you follow me?
Then the Bode diagram of starcraft would be like this:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Red = zerg
green = terran
blue = protoss


The brown areas are the band of interest. As you can see there is the band of iccup and the very narrow band of pro. My theory is that if it was possible to go beyond the band of pro then starcraft would no longer be balanced, and the reason why we would like to think that starcraft is balanced is because at pro level all 3 gains for each race crosses each other.
The protoss has units that cant inflict damage unless you micro them (HT to mention one). Thats why i decided to put protoss in the negative at very low apm. But protoss quickly catch up because its easier to macro as protoss.
The gain of the terran race will continue to grow beyond the pro-band because their units are so strong but in order to utilise that power you need to micro them, and you need to micro them more than the units of the 2 other races, but also the advantage are bigger. Luckely for the bw scene that state of imbaness lies out of human reach, but it is there, in my beleive.

Also the bode diagram for starcraft may have been distorted at some parts but its so hard to draw in paint and with logaritmic scale lol. I still think though that the bode diagram that i managed to create displays my thoughts to an acceptable level.

Also dont take it litteraly because there still are a lot of things that needs to be taking into consideration like decission making and scouting, so you should only take this very generally.

So what do you think, do i have a point? o.0

Also i have like no experience in zvt...

****
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
October 02 2010 00:04 GMT
#2
haha pretty interesting . I actually like it, and you make some good points about the bands.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4216 Posts
October 02 2010 00:52 GMT
#3
Personally, I think Z would be the most imbalanced race..... Thanks to the larvae mechanic. If you can't see why, well, yea.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 02:45:13
October 03 2010 02:44 GMT
#4
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.

The main issue is that nobody has APM (skills) beyond the "pro band," so we can't extrapolate the gain function accurately. Any type of guess of ability given whatever APM level in that region is just like anybody else guessing, with or without diagrams.

edit: but of course I'm taking the analogy too seriously, I know.
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
October 03 2010 03:03 GMT
#5
On October 03 2010 11:44 Myrmidon wrote:
I thought modern control theory was based on state space representations, while classical control theory is based on frequency-domain analysis, using Bode plots, etc.


ISBN 0-13-043245-8
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 03:16:53
October 03 2010 03:12 GMT
#6
Hm, all I know is that my professor made the distinction between classical and modern control theory in the way I did. In my one-semester class, we had classical control theory for 90% of the class and then a brief intro to state space representations in the last 10%. It also seems to match with what wikipedia says. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if many control theory books began with classical control theory, since that's the order in which it's usually taught, at least in the USA.

edit: on a side note, my professor was from the UK, though granted I don't think he would be using terminology that isn't common in the States.

It's an interesting subject though.

Originally I thought you were going to explain game flow as a control problem, though. Scouting gives you feedback, so you have closed-loop control. Just another thought.
NevilleS
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada266 Posts
October 03 2010 06:44 GMT
#7
Modern control theory is definitely inclined towards state space. No offense OP but an apm vs race effectiveness graph is hardly a way to model starcraft using control theory... After all, the presence of variations in gain is hardly something specific to controls, it is something all scientists are concerned with (finding ways to model natural behavior with mathematical relationships). The key of the bode plot is that it can be used to infer control parameters such as system stability, gain margins, etc.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-03 07:27:03
October 03 2010 07:21 GMT
#8
I did my undergrad in Systems Engineering and what you said in the OP doesn't make much sense.

First of all, as most people have pointed out, the frequency-domains analysis falls under classical control theory (modern control theory uses time-domain state-space representation).

Going along with frequency analysis, this part doesn't make sense at all....

So you have a system, like the protoss race or the zerg race etc. then you have the input. That would be the mineral spent and the output would be the damage inflicted o.0


At least I can't think of a good way to connect Starcraft and control theories.

This is how I would picture a closed-loop system if I had to:
- the game itself is the system rather than the race
- the inputs would be your commands
- the outputs would be the various game states
- you would simultaneously supply the input, be the controller and the sensor

edit:
You can make anything "work" by making a plethora of arbitrary assumptions; at the end of the day, you have to realize that applications for control theories are not limitless, and they aren't applicable to everything in our daily lives.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
17:00
#43
Clem vs herOLIVE!
TKL 597
SteadfastSC583
IndyStarCraft 222
BRAT_OK 126
EnkiAlexander 66
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 597
SteadfastSC 583
IndyStarCraft 222
elazer 162
UpATreeSC 149
BRAT_OK 126
ProTech110
JuggernautJason75
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 68
LancerX 13
Dota 2
monkeys_forever272
Counter-Strike
byalli664
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu439
Other Games
gofns53923
tarik_tv17252
Grubby4056
FrodaN1274
mouzStarbuck252
summit1g222
shahzam174
ArmadaUGS159
C9.Mang0103
ZombieGrub49
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2320
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 201
• Hupsaiya 66
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1347
Other Games
• imaqtpie1408
• Shiphtur179
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 13m
Wardi Open
14h 13m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 2h
WardiTV Team League
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Team League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
BSL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.