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I've been through a wide gambit of religions and influences.
This is my view on god.
Where did all of existence come from. We are fairly certain from observations of the universe, that all the matter and energy originated from a single point. The big bang. But where did it come from? Where did all the atoms and energy come from? It didn't simply spontaneously spring from the void. I saw a discovery channel show about the universe where some scientist said how " our physics allow for this" I lol'd. When we learned in school how in the middle ages they believed that maggots and mold were believed to form spontaneously because no one understood that a whole microscopic world existed beyond our perception. Have we really reverted back to spontaneous self creation?
Where did life come from? The man who discovered DNA said once (not a perfect quote) "DNA is so incredibly complex that the likely hood of it forming chemically, by accident, in the amount of time it did on earth, is equivalent to a tornado hitting a junkyard and building a fully functional 747"
I think what you really have to look at is perception. How do you perceive the universe? Right now radio waves are passing right through the walls of your house and right through your body. Yet without a radio you are completely oblivious to this. Because the wavelengths are small enough able to pass right through the atoms.
95% of the area an atom takes up is empty space. An electron is capable of circling the globe 6 times in a second. So circling something the size of an atom, that electron is essentially occupying all points around the nucleus simultaneously, creating an energy field and an atoms area. It has been stated that if all atoms and their components were compressed down, removing their empty space, that all the matter in the universe would fit inside a matchbox. Hold a rock in your hand and marvel at the fact that 95% of it is simply empty space contained within energy fields. Another words everything you see is an inflated illusion. You define the universe by what you see and what your other senses perceive. They have many limitations. Who is to say that their isn't tons of stuff going on, right on top of us, that we simply have not discovered because we have no way to perceive it and don't know what were looking for.
Time may be just as flexible due to perception. Time may not even really exist in the way we understand it. There may not really be a past, present and future. Everything could be simultaneous, we just don't perceive it that way. Einstein was the man who originated the idea of time not being a constant in his theory of relativity. He held a deep belief in god. He ,as do I, believed that the origination and functionality of everything in existence was simply to complex,beautiful, and genius to be randomly generated. I think the more a person comes to understand about science and the universe the closer the come to god because the can have a fuller appreciation of his work.
I don't believe most of whats in the bible. I believe it is based in truth as most myths are. But it is a great book for understanding yourself and mankind better and how to live a happier life. I've experienced things in my life that have removed all doubt in me. I know god is.
I don't know how much he intervenes in the affairs of mankind, if at all. I think he does.
Anyway the wise know how little they know. So keep an open mind and explore all possibilities. I hope this post provokes some deep thought in anyone who reads it, as I think creation is something that to many people avoid giving the thought it deserves.
I work at a christian church btw  They are fully aware of my beliefs and respect them. My church does tons of charity work, feeding and clothing the hungry almost every day. They help families stay together and are always there to take in members of their congregation in times of need. I can't tell you how much they do for total strangers without ever caring about a return. They don't talk about hell whatsoever. I know there are a lot of crappy churches out there I've been to quite a few but don't be turned away by it, there are some real Christians still out there.
If you think about it why does charity exist? It is completely in contrast to anything that evolution would produce. I do BTW believe in evolution. It is obvious. I don't know if god interfered with the process or not, I don't pretend to, but I'm completely open to the possibility that god decided to make us.
I hope you find your answers and for the record God is not the boring hardass that most religions claim he is But don't let the people who misinterpret and misuse God turn you away from even looking. It's funny, but to find and perceive God, you have to be looking. When you look hard enough with your heart and mind you'll see he's been their waiting, right in front of you, the whole time. Don't worry he's a patient entity. He has to be.
 
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Well put.
I'm actually somewhere nearer to your interpretations of God and existence than most of my fellow Christian's interpretations. Though, I tend to lean more towards Christianity than anything else based solely on the fact that of all the religions I've looked into, it seems, when you cut away all the bureaucratic hogwash of sect dogma, is the most conducive to leaving people free to do as they wish in this life.
Cool stuff.
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I don't want to turn this into religious war, but I will state I disagree with you that the Bible can be used to better understand myself and mankind. I disagree vehemently that the bible and other religious works are the basis for human morality. As far as understanding mankind, let's just say that there are a lot of things in the Bible that every modern civilization absolutely opposes.
Why do Christian's always claim Einstein and other famous thinkers held a belief in their God? This is preposterous as I will copy wikipedia: In a 1954 letter, he wrote, "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."[97] In a letter to philosopher Erik Gutkind, Einstein remarked, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."[98] (links are # ^ "Belief in God a 'product of human weaknesses': Einstein letter", CBC News. Retrieved December 16, 2009.
# ^ "Letters of Note: The word God is a product of human weakness", Letters of Note. Retrieved December 16, 2009.)
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Well, just because something is so complex that the likelihood of it happening by a set of random actions is infinitesimally small doesn't necessarily mean that god was behind it. If you accept the possibility that some omnipotent entity that exists in some supernatural space was the intelligent creator, then really there are endless possibilities for those progression of events.
I'm an atheist in the sense that I can't really force myself to follow any religion out there. I'm not of the staunch position that there is no God. I accept the possibility that there could be some all-mighty deity; however, cannot live under such an assumption solely by "faith." But anyway, many of the moral beliefs upheld by most churches out there are congruent (well absent belief in God) with how I define morally "good" decisions anyway. I just don't believe religion is a necessary force in order for people to act for the good of society. There are alternative reasons for acting in a way to the benefit of others without having to rely on tablets that came from Mt. Sinai.
You know, an ex of mine is Catholic and really tried to push me towards becoming one. I tried...I really did. Went to church and everything. But that was a total failure.
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France3460 Posts
I beleive in probabilitys, god is just one of them.
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On September 02 2010 11:26 SagaZ wrote:
I beleive in probabilitys, god is just one of them.
Witty one-liners with a smidgen of troll for taste, so exquisite.
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Read "The God Hypothesis" by Michael Corey.
He is like 100% with you and he is very well written. I'm positive you'll enjoy the book, its one of my favorites.
+ Show Spoiler +He is a Christian, and interjects some of that... but aside from that its a great work.
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Don't know if I should respond here but I will. From reading your post you come across as someone who has never looked into the arguments against your position. For the first bit you say how little we know, and imply that because we know so little the likelihood of a God is greater. This thought process is very unreasonable but is very common among Christians (probably all religions but I'm not at all familiar with the others). You can't say that we hardly know anything, then say God has to exist because of what you don't know, basically another form of "the god of the gaps" (meaning when something isn't explained it is claimed that: god did it). I hope that was somewhat coherent :/
Later on you made some more specific points that I want to address as well. First off, Einstein was a pantheist, and did not believe in a personal god. In this same paragraph you make the argument that "everything is too complex to be randomly generated", almost sounds like creationist talk. You can't say something is too complex, and then offer something that would have to be by definition vastly more complex as an explanation (God).
I think the more a person comes to understand about science and the universe the closer the come to god because the can have a fuller appreciation of his work.
Umm, no?
I don't believe most of whats in the bible. I believe it is based in truth as most myths are. But it is a great book for understanding yourself and mankind better and how to live a happier life. I've experienced things in my life that have removed all doubt in me. I know god is.
I don't know how much he intervenes in the affairs of mankind, if at all. I think he does.
Have you read the bible? The only part where you could make the claim that it teaches you how to live a better life is the new testament, but even there there are so many things that are simply immoral by todays standards. ( I guess i mean the gospels, but even there, how is the idea of vicarious redemption moral? Whats moral about "leave no thought for the morrow.", etc.
Anyway the wise know how little they know. So keep an open mind and explore all possibilities. I hope this post provokes some deep thought in anyone who reads it, as I think creation is something that to many people avoid giving the thought it deserves.
You ask us to keep an open mind but have already made up yours (when you claim that we know so little). The neutral position is the atheist/agnostic position, not the theist position. The neutral position is saying that there isn't enough information to decide either way (that there is or isnt a god) so for now you will remain undecided. The theist claims to know the truth already.
there are some real Christians still out there.
I hate this phrase, and Christians use it so often that it's laughable. There is one condition to being a Christian: you have to beleive that christ died to wash away your sins and accept him as your savior, the end. No matter how crazy or appalling some christians are you cant say they aren't true christians, they are just as christian as you or any other.
If you think about it why does charity exist? It is completely in contrast to anything that evolution would produce. I do BTW believe in evolution. It is obvious. I don't know if god interfered with the process or not, I don't pretend to, but I'm completely open to the possibility that god decided to make us.
Charity can easily be explained by evolutionary processes. Is it better for a population of animals to take care of one another, or to be indifferent to one another? Its not at all hard to see that organisms that have the tendency to take care of each other would survive over ones that didn't.
Either we evolved or we were created as we are now, you can't have both. But the science is on on this, if you haven't read up on it it's your problem.
Your last paragraph is simply proselytizing, not much to respond to there except that its fine if you believe that, as long as you're fine with me not believing it (even though this is impossible for most christians, because they feel the need to save everyone). Anyways I hope my post was coherent and you actually read and think about it.
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Good to see a religious blog that doesn't take extremes.
I thought your points about the "747 made by a tornado" and "universe in a matchbox" were very interesting.
Also, I think I understand what you meant by the end. Christianity doesn't revolve around the creation story or the amazing tales of floods and prophets. While those are a part of Christianity, it's not the reason or reasons why people become Christian. But the things we see others do in the name of Jesus, giving and forgiving, doing things out of grace and love because they themselves have been shown the same grace and love, is what truly drives people to God.
I wasn't really going to post, but given how many people on TL just seem to feel a burning desire to bash everything remotely supporting Christianity, I thought I'd help balance it out a little. 
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If you think about it why does charity exist? It is completely in contrast to anything that evolution would produce.
This is blatantly not true.
Also, Feynman;
You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won’t believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!
is what I like to quote when people bust out how "unlikely" some aspect of our universe is
edit: please do not think i am like a militant atheist or something I am just pointing out that some of your arguments are invalid
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On September 02 2010 10:57 Reborn8u wrote:
Right now radio waves are passing right through the walls of your house and right through your body. Yet without a radio you are completely oblivious to this. Because the wavelengths are small enough able to pass right through the atoms.
I think you need to retake physics, or at least clear this up. The wavelengths of radio waves are around a km long.
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On September 02 2010 12:20 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 11:18 setzer wrote:
I don't want to turn this into religious war, but I will state I disagree with you that the Bible can be used to better understand myself and mankind. I disagree vehemently that the bible and other religious works are the basis for human morality. As far as understanding mankind, let's just say that there are a lot of things in the Bible that every modern civilization absolutely opposes.
Why do Christian's always claim Einstein and other famous thinkers held a belief in their God? This is preposterous as I will copy wikipedia: In a 1954 letter, he wrote, "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."[97] In a letter to philosopher Erik Gutkind, Einstein remarked, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."[98] (links are # ^ "Belief in God a 'product of human weaknesses': Einstein letter", CBC News. Retrieved December 16, 2009.
# ^ "Letters of Note: The word God is a product of human weakness", Letters of Note. Retrieved December 16, 2009.) hey im a christian and i really don't care whether einstein and other famous thinkers held a belief in my God. how is that relevant to anything? lol i think you ran into christians who try to justify their 'belief' in a religion with the reasoning that other geniuses in the world believed in the religion as well. now i put belief in quotes because thats not really belief, is it? and @op i like your points. i also worked with a church this summer in dorchester, boston, and it was an amazing experience. I worked with people who truly cared about their community and the less fortunate. sometimes we wouldnt even get to see the faces of who we served but i felt like this is the way we ought to live. alot of bystanders often came up to us and gave us support and encouragement even though they weren't christians. that felt really good as well because even if they aren't christian, they recognized our efforts and goodwill.
It's relevant because he claimed Einstein held "a deep belief in god" which is utterly false.
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On September 02 2010 11:43 Kickstart wrote:Don't know if I should respond here but I will. From reading your post you come across as someone who has never looked into the arguments against your position. For the first bit you say how little we know, and imply that because we know so little the likelihood of a God is greater. This thought process is very unreasonable but is very common among Christians (probably all religions but I'm not at all familiar with the others). You can't say that we hardly know anything, then say God has to exist because of what you don't know, basically another form of "the god of the gaps" (meaning when something isn't explained it is claimed that: god did it). I hope that was somewhat coherent :/ Later on you made some more specific points that I want to address as well. First off, Einstein was a pantheist, and did not believe in a personal god. In this same paragraph you make the argument that "everything is too complex to be randomly generated", almost sounds like creationist talk. You can't say something is too complex, and then offer something that would have to be by definition vastly more complex as an explanation (God). Show nested quote + I think the more a person comes to understand about science and the universe the closer the come to god because the can have a fuller appreciation of his work. Umm, no? Show nested quote +I don't believe most of whats in the bible. I believe it is based in truth as most myths are. But it is a great book for understanding yourself and mankind better and how to live a happier life. I've experienced things in my life that have removed all doubt in me. I know god is.
I don't know how much he intervenes in the affairs of mankind, if at all. I think he does. Have you read the bible? The only part where you could make the claim that it teaches you how to live a better life is the new testament, but even there there are so many things that are simply immoral by todays standards. ( I guess i mean the gospels, but even there, how is the idea of vicarious redemption moral? Whats moral about "leave no thought for the morrow.", etc. Show nested quote +Anyway the wise know how little they know. So keep an open mind and explore all possibilities. I hope this post provokes some deep thought in anyone who reads it, as I think creation is something that to many people avoid giving the thought it deserves. You ask us to keep an open mind but have already made up yours (when you claim that we know so little). The neutral position is the atheist/agnostic position, not the theist position. The neutral position is saying that there isn't enough information to decide either way (that there is or isnt a god) so for now you will remain undecided. The theist claims to know the truth already. I hate this phrase, and Christians use it so often that it's laughable. There is one condition to being a Christian: you have to beleive that christ died to wash away your sins and accept him as your savior, the end. No matter how crazy or appalling some christians are you cant say they aren't true christians, they are just as christian as you or any other. Show nested quote +If you think about it why does charity exist? It is completely in contrast to anything that evolution would produce. I do BTW believe in evolution. It is obvious. I don't know if god interfered with the process or not, I don't pretend to, but I'm completely open to the possibility that god decided to make us. Charity can easily be explained by evolutionary processes. Is it better for a population of animals to take care of one another, or to be indifferent to one another? Its not at all hard to see that organisms that have the tendency to take care of each other would survive over ones that didn't. Either we evolved or we were created as we are now, you can't have both. But the science is on on this, if you haven't read up on it it's your problem. Your last paragraph is simply proselytizing, not much to respond to there except that its fine if you believe that, as long as you're fine with me not believing it (even though this is impossible for most christians, because they feel the need to save everyone). Anyways I hope my post was coherent and you actually read and think about it.
You seem pretty closed to what I'm trying to say. You've also made a few assumptions about me that I would like to clarify. 1st off I was atheist for almost a decade. I was involved a plenty of illegal activities and from age 12 to about age 24 I thought about suicide almost everyday. My family is mostly irish catholic which I was turned off by because of all the ceremony and the lack of discussion. It's all so 1 sided. When I was young I voluntarily went to church with my friend on sundays and we had a bible study class. We would just read a few pages from the bible 11 kids, the teacher and I would discuss it. I enjoyed it. The bible is full of stories about people, the decisions they make and the affects those decisions have. If you can't learn some truths about human behavior in it than this blog is not going to mean anything to you because you probably lack good interpretation skills.
You also have assumed I am christian and attempting to skew people towards my beliefs. I am not christian. I believe jesus probably lived, but I don't think he was the son of god, and the virgin birth and all that. I don't however think it couldn't have happened but I wasn't there and the bible was put through plenty of translations and over time people picked and choose what should be in and out of it. So it's full of imperfections.
I am a creationist. Your right about that, I'm not sure how much God moved the process along or if he just did the initial big bang and perhaps got bored with it and started life. Just a guess though.
Much of the morality stuff in the bible was added to suit specific peoples desires over time in my opinion. It's the subtle parts that speak more to me about morality. I don't believe in hell either.
I'm open to the possibility of reincarnation, polytheism, or that god isn't really a god and reality is merely an illusion and what we call god is just another form of life capable of creating this illusion.
My mind isn't made up. Maybe I'm completely wrong. But I will never be able to accept that all the matter in existence sprang from void and that life just started of its own accord. Maybe when I die it will simply be like before I was born, I simply won't exist. But my son is just like me so my essence will remain
About your talk on charity, I think your just wrong. In most species on this planet, their greatest competition comes from their own species. I'm sure there is plenty of sharing within a pack of wolves or any family type grouping of animals, but sharing and charity are totally different. Sharing withing a family type group is of course self serving to some extent. Giving someone the clothes off your back and knowing that you'll never see that person again (like when people go on missions to far away countries for example and work hard just to try and end the suffering of others) is not self serving. Or leaving mcdonalds drivethrough and seeing a homeless guy and giving him your lunch when you know you don't have time to get more before your break ends. How would evolution put acts like that into any species? People risk their lives to save a dog stuck in a well, we try to explore the most hostile environments like space in a quest for understanding that could claim our lives, I don't think those are very strong evolutionary traits.
I can't stand the bible thumping narrowminded fools out their either. But you seem to have mistakenly put me in that group.
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Also please do not insult Watson and Crick, the quote was by Sir Fred Hoyle.
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On September 02 2010 12:39 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 10:57 Reborn8u wrote:
Right now radio waves are passing right through the walls of your house and right through your body. Yet without a radio you are completely oblivious to this. Because the wavelengths are small enough able to pass right through the atoms.
I think you need to retake physics, or at least clear this up. The wavelengths of radio waves are around a km long.
Maybe It was gamma rays that I was thinking of. Please enlighten me. BTW I would love if you would give a proper explanation of this phenomenon.
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Here are some quotes about Einstein. I didn't bring this up because he is a genius and anyone should just believe what he believes because he is really smart. Thats just silly. He, little known to most, was a great philosopher and many of the other great things he said and did in his life are overshadowed by his work in physics. He just had a view of the universe that struck a chord with me.
Here are some quotes that I think clarify this part of the debate
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."4
However, it would also seem that Einstein was not an atheist, since he also complained about being put into that camp:
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."5
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."6
Sounds to me like he put quite a bit of thought into it, and his belief in god was deeply held. But this may just be my misinterpretation. I think we were similar in our beliefs that something exists that we refer to as "God" but it is foolish to even attempt to define it and the rigid definitions held by most religions are even more foolish.
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On September 02 2010 12:49 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 12:39 seppolevne wrote:On September 02 2010 10:57 Reborn8u wrote:
Right now radio waves are passing right through the walls of your house and right through your body. Yet without a radio you are completely oblivious to this. Because the wavelengths are small enough able to pass right through the atoms.
I think you need to retake physics, or at least clear this up. The wavelengths of radio waves are around a km long. Maybe It was gamma rays that I was thinking of. Please enlighten me. BTW I would love if you would give a proper explanation of this phenomenon.
Radio waves are not felt simply because they do not contain enough energy to be felt by our numb bodies. They can affect and cause the collective oscillation of charge carriers in a bulk material, such as a bunch of electrons in an antenna.
Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_oscillation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_(radio)
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Let me clarify, I wasn't asking why we can't perceive energy waves such as radio. I was asking for a proper explanation of how energy waves like this are able to pass through solid objects. For example if I was in a sealed wooden cube, wrapped in plastic, how do radio waves pass directly through the matter. I know there was something I learned about that could pass right through matter because of it's size. (perhaps neutrinos or gamma waves) Sorry, my memory is failing me.
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EPT
