• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:34
CET 15:34
KST 23:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros9[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win52025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!10BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION1Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams10Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest4
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four DreamHack Open 2013 revealed
Tourneys
SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia Kirktown Chat Brawl #9 $50 8:30PM EST 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment
Brood War
General
Ladder Map Matchup Stats Map pack for 3v3/4v4/FFA games BW General Discussion SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 The Casual Games of the Week Thread BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION
Strategy
PvZ map balance Current Meta How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Career Paths and Skills for …
TrAiDoS
KPDH "Golden" as Squid Game…
Peanutsc
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1735 users

Musashi's "Gorinsho" - Draft Reading Interest?

Blogs > Truenappa
Post a Reply
Niten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States598 Posts
April 20 2010 17:47 GMT
#1
So... for my Master's thesis at my university I've made my project retranslating Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" as it's known in English (though actually the text was unnamed). Basically, I'm wondering if TL netizens might be interested in helping me out by reading draft versions of the different scrolls for style, clarity, etc. If there's interest as expressed in the poll, then I'd like to post things here. I've put in a primer to my project after the poll.

Poll: Would you be interested in reading this awesomeness??

GoGoGo!! Gimme sumthin to read. (11)
 
85%

No, not really. (2)
 
15%

Other - Explained in post. (0)
 
0%

13 total votes

Your vote: Would you be interested in reading this awesomeness??

(Vote): GoGoGo!! Gimme sumthin to read.
(Vote): No, not really.
(Vote): Other - Explained in post.




My MA project is on Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings," the Gorinsho, a medieval document where Musashi critiques Edo-period Japanese martial ways and explains key points of his own school, Niten-ichi-ryu.

The HMK (Harima Musashi Kenkyukai) is a research group in Japan doing amazing work on the Gorinsho. Their great addition to Gorinsho scholarship lies in their comparative analysis of existing manuscripts (MS) and the conclusions they've come to as a result. The most critical of which is their separation of MS lines. They are the only ones to even consider comparing the existing manuscripts.

I'm not an expert at all this yet, but the largest and most important distinction is between the Chikuzen-line and Higo-line manuscripts. The Chikuzen-line follows the transmission history of MSs based on the historical documentation of the Gorinsho's transmission from the colophon at the end of each scroll, which is why this line follows the people whom received and transmitted the text. Early on in its transmission, this follows the heads of the 二天一流 (Niten-ichi-ryu) sword school.

The Higo-line, according to the HMK's comparative textual analysis, is the product of a leaked early Chikuzen-line MS. It was subsequently copied, and recopied, and these MS's tracing is based on the HMK's comparative analysis of those MS which all share similar characteristics (lack of transmission documentation, clear copy errors, peculiar omissions). The Hosokawa MS appears late on in this line.

This Hosokawa MS, treated and annotated, appears in the Japanese collection of martial writings, the Bushido Zensho (writings on Bushido, 1942-43). It also appears in another collection of Japanese writings, the Nihon Shisou Taikei (related works of Japanese thought, 1972). It is, as I understand it, the source text for all the modern Japanese translations. Out of the 15 English Gorinsho translations and interpretations, 4 (possibly 6) of them, I believe, were translated from the classical Japanese, and all of these used the Hosokawa MS as their source text (Harris, Wilson, Ochiai, Tokitsu, Cleary?, Bradford Brown?, Ashikaga?).

The rest of these English "translations" purport themselves to be modern-day interpretations, translations, or something in between. I've found that later published books draw from earlier translations/interpretations in making their own new, but different, interpretation. I believe there is a scandal here, a gross distortion of meaning, that I can trace starting from the HMK's genealogy and going through the English translations and interpretations. For example, I have evidence showing that Kaufman borrowed from Harris and Cleary (and likely the other two available to him) in creating his "martial artist's definitive interpretation," and that Krause's "Book of Five Rings for Executives" used Kaufman and Cleary. I also have evidence of Moore and Gough borrowing (at least) from Harris. I won't go into the rest or in more detail here, but the result is essentially a 365 year old game of "telephone."

The point is I can trace the genealogy of these English translations back to their classical routes, which is then found out to be a leaked and copied MS full of mistakes. I can expose this scandal of translation while simultaneously offering my own translation of the HMK's MS (the rough version of which I'm posting here), which was compiled through comparative analysis of Higo and Chikuzen MSs (though with obvious weight given to the Chikuzen-line). My project is thus to expose the scandal while offering my own translation of the HMK's manuscript.


Korra: "Ok, I know that I'm not good at emotions, but that's what Tenzin's gonna teach me, right? He's gonna teach me to be happy and gentle and spiritual, and the rest of that bullsh**t."
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
April 20 2010 18:34 GMT
#2
First of all, I agree with your signature. If you have any thoughts on the Cleary translation (the one I own) I'd be interested in hearing them.

I'd be happy to help out by reading a scroll or two every now and then. Have at it!
May the BeSt man win.
ella_guru
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada1741 Posts
April 20 2010 18:50 GMT
#3
_definitely_

I love martial arts, and like all, I love dedicated, humble individuals.

Please do this.
Each day gets better : )
tarpman
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada719 Posts
April 20 2010 21:28 GMT
#4
very, very interesting project. I've actually been working my way through what appears to be Bradford Brown's translation ("The Book of Five Rings: The Real Art of Japanese Management"). I'd love to see yours and have a look at some of the differences.

This also explains your signature, which I fully agree with
Saving the world, one kilobyte at a time.
saritenite
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Singapore1680 Posts
April 21 2010 04:28 GMT
#5
Holy shit, I'm reading the manga Vagabond. It's about him.

Not quite sure whether it's historically correct, but it's a fine manga.

And sure, I'll help read it (:
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17731 Posts
April 21 2010 14:10 GMT
#6
of course i would love to read it
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Niten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States598 Posts
April 21 2010 20:30 GMT
#7
I'm so glad there's a positive reaction to this!!

So here's the deal: I am halfway done with my Fire scroll's alpha translation (at page 90 / 130). Once I've gotten through them all roughly (Wind is short and Void is like a page), I'll rework through them alongside the classical to get things much tighter then they are now. I was rereading my Earth and I was noticing things like crazy that I'll change. This is how the translation process, for me anyway, works -- I rough it out, and then go back over again and again until it gleams with polish so bright it's blinding.

Anyway, once I get "beta" versions of the scrolls ready, I'll be ready for feedback and post them as new blog posts.

Thank you SOOOO much everyone and I'm looking forward to your feedback!
よろしくお願いします - yorishiku onegaishimasu
Korra: "Ok, I know that I'm not good at emotions, but that's what Tenzin's gonna teach me, right? He's gonna teach me to be happy and gentle and spiritual, and the rest of that bullsh**t."
ella_guru
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada1741 Posts
April 21 2010 23:12 GMT
#8
Yea it's going to be great man. Musashi is one of those guys no one is ever apathetic about upon hearing, he's just way too cool in every way.


Strong
Sensitive
Humble
Violent
Poet

= Baller
Each day gets better : )
tarpman
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada719 Posts
April 26 2010 15:22 GMT
#9
Truenappa, your enthusiasm really shows through in that last post. Great to see, and it put a smile on my face. Thanks.
Saving the world, one kilobyte at a time.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC4ALL
14:00
SC4All Day 1
LiquipediaDiscussion
SC4ALL
14:00
SC4ALL - Day 1
RotterdaM218
CranKy Ducklings74
SteadfastSC72
IndyStarCraft 65
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL Team A[vengers]
14:00
Day 3
Dewalt vs ZeLoT
UltrA vs ZeLoT
ZZZero.O88
LiquipediaDiscussion
Epic.LAN
12:00
Epic.LAN 46 Playoffs Stage
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko408
Artosis 374
RotterdaM 218
Rex 118
LamboSC2 87
SteadfastSC 72
IndyStarCraft 65
Codebar 30
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 3217
Calm 3143
Barracks 553
sorry 314
Last 213
ZZZero.O 88
Dewaltoss 85
zelot 81
Bonyth 61
ToSsGirL 31
[ Show more ]
Shine 24
910 16
Rock 14
HiyA 12
Terrorterran 11
Dota 2
Gorgc3506
qojqva2754
syndereN76
League of Legends
Reynor141
Counter-Strike
fl0m387
PGG 140
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor270
Other Games
singsing1881
B2W.Neo1374
DeMusliM321
XcaliburYe180
Hui .175
Liquid`LucifroN174
KnowMe90
nookyyy 50
Mew2King50
QueenE49
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL19209
Other Games
gamesdonequick885
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 54
• Adnapsc2 19
• iHatsuTV 2
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler68
League of Legends
• Jankos3077
• Nemesis3044
Other Games
• WagamamaTV329
Upcoming Events
BSL 21
4h 26m
BSL Team A[vengers]
23h 26m
Cross vs Sobenz
Sziky vs IcaruS
SC4ALL
1d
SC4ALL
1d
BSL 21
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
Wardi Open
1d 21h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
BSL 21 Team A
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
SC4ALL: Brood War
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025

Upcoming

YSL S2
BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.