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And what's to argue that Jaedong would have hypothetically completely denied Flash's (lol unlikely; grasping at straws are you? cool) hypothetical dropship play?
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I like how we only manage to respond to the 2nd last response of the other lol
Well I am wondering about his stance in all this, too, although tbh I am much more interested in Flashs view of this.
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On January 24 2010 09:35 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 09:31 Foucault wrote:On January 24 2010 09:28 7mk wrote:On January 24 2010 08:55 Foucault wrote:
You know why he got away with minimum of defense? Because of how big the maps are. He would have needed way more defense on a map like Destination for instance.
You are talking about Jaedong like he is way more experienced than Flash, which he isn't. He didn't "know" that he had the game in the bag, especially when Flash almost broke his 7. Jaedong didn't see the VOD or the dark area of the map so he didn't know that he would won that game. Knowing means 100% sure.
Yeah, and this is motherfucking Flash we are talking about. I think you're a bit too biased actually. Because Flash was in the hot spot, Jaedong should have stepped up. It's not up to the person who gets the short end of the stack to prove his sportsmanship in a situation like this. That would only make him a martyr and Jaedong would feel worse about it all.
I didnt make it sound like Flash was way less experienced at all, after the game was over I bet Flash knew he was in a very bad situation in that game. OK let me make a little correction. JD knew he was very close to winning that game, as long as Flash didnt have any expansions he didn't know about. And I very highly doubt that I am more biased than you are. I like Flash a lot. I'd be rooting for him against pretty much anyone except JD and the CJ boys. Look, I am not saying that it was 100% over, I am not saying that the decision was fair, but it was still the best that could be done, and JD having to step up there to decide against him winning a game which he was very close to having won, on a heavily T-favouring map, with a specific build order he could only use on it once... that's just bullshit. All I'm saying is that I hear lots of talk about how Flash should've stepped up to his team/dad but no one mentions Jaedongs (presumed) silence in all this. I think you're neglecting dropship play though. Flash might have been ready to employ 2 dropships right when it happened for all we know 2 dropships would mean an even smaller amount of science vessels and it would be tough to do any damage, since all the bases were nydus-connected and flash simply wouldnt have a large enough army to do anything And I didnt hear any talk about how Flash should've stepped up until after I had read your post. I love how you call everyone out for being too biased, while you are clearly 100% objective lol
Flash most likely had a decent amount of m&m at his nat and if he has dropships there ready to go, things could have been different. Also he could have dropped JD's main and 3 expo simultaneously while attacking his 7 o clock with m&m.
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On January 24 2010 09:38 7mk wrote:
I like how we only manage to respond to the 2nd last response of the other lol
Well I am wondering about his stance in all this, too, although tbh I am much more interested in Flashs view of this.
lol yeah we're lagging :D
I'm interested in both their views. I hope there's some news article on the matter soon!
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On January 24 2010 09:34 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 09:28 Gigaudas wrote:On January 24 2010 09:25 Foucault wrote:On January 24 2010 09:12 Gigaudas wrote:On January 24 2010 08:55 Foucault wrote:
Yeah, and this is motherfucking Flash we are talking about. I think you're a bit too biased actually. Because Flash was in the hot spot, Jaedong should have stepped up. It's not up to the person who gets the short end of the stack to prove his sportsmanship in a situation like this. That would only make him a martyr and Jaedong would feel worse about it all.
Can we agree that Jaedong was in a very good spot in game three? Now, imagine he were to agree to a rematch and Flash would've won the series. What would that trophy be worth? He was in a good spot, and neither you or anyone else can say exactly how good it was tbh. The trophy would have been worth more than it is now, that's for certain. The series ended up having one game left, with a devastated Flash. And JD walked over him. How is Flash being devestated an argument when JD would've had even greater cause to be devestated after having a victory stolen from him by the referee? Man, you are way too biased. I think an argument is a too light way to put it. I read that his father was walked out of the building and his team left, but came back. That's not an argument, that's a chaotic situation for young Lee Young Ho, who's social network suddenly messes up and he no longer has the strong comfort from his team and dad all of a sudden.
I'm not saying that Flash wasn't shook by the situation and it's very possible that it's what made him lose the 4th game. But the same thing might as well have happened to JD if the referee ruled against him.
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On January 24 2010 09:38 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 09:35 7mk wrote:On January 24 2010 09:31 Foucault wrote:On January 24 2010 09:28 7mk wrote:On January 24 2010 08:55 Foucault wrote:
You know why he got away with minimum of defense? Because of how big the maps are. He would have needed way more defense on a map like Destination for instance.
You are talking about Jaedong like he is way more experienced than Flash, which he isn't. He didn't "know" that he had the game in the bag, especially when Flash almost broke his 7. Jaedong didn't see the VOD or the dark area of the map so he didn't know that he would won that game. Knowing means 100% sure.
Yeah, and this is motherfucking Flash we are talking about. I think you're a bit too biased actually. Because Flash was in the hot spot, Jaedong should have stepped up. It's not up to the person who gets the short end of the stack to prove his sportsmanship in a situation like this. That would only make him a martyr and Jaedong would feel worse about it all.
I didnt make it sound like Flash was way less experienced at all, after the game was over I bet Flash knew he was in a very bad situation in that game. OK let me make a little correction. JD knew he was very close to winning that game, as long as Flash didnt have any expansions he didn't know about. And I very highly doubt that I am more biased than you are. I like Flash a lot. I'd be rooting for him against pretty much anyone except JD and the CJ boys. Look, I am not saying that it was 100% over, I am not saying that the decision was fair, but it was still the best that could be done, and JD having to step up there to decide against him winning a game which he was very close to having won, on a heavily T-favouring map, with a specific build order he could only use on it once... that's just bullshit. All I'm saying is that I hear lots of talk about how Flash should've stepped up to his team/dad but no one mentions Jaedongs (presumed) silence in all this. I think you're neglecting dropship play though. Flash might have been ready to employ 2 dropships right when it happened for all we know 2 dropships would mean an even smaller amount of science vessels and it would be tough to do any damage, since all the bases were nydus-connected and flash simply wouldnt have a large enough army to do anything And I didnt hear any talk about how Flash should've stepped up until after I had read your post. I love how you call everyone out for being too biased, while you are clearly 100% objective lol Flash most likely had a decent amount of m&m at his nat and if he has dropships there ready to go, things could have been different. Also he could have dropped JD's main and 3 expo simultaneously while attacking his 7 o clock with m&m.
Even if he miraculously pulled this off, his units split into three would mean each attack is even weaker, and its highly unlikely JD would let this happen. Especially with 5 gas pumping ultras.
Come on, pretty much everyone who has deep sc knowledge agrees that JD was far far ahead.
Of course it was still possible for Flash to win... it was just really really unlikely
P.S. about the comeback part...
I was pretty skeptical before the finals that it would produce good games.
Why? Because nowadays games between the best of the best tend to be really onesided, cause as soon as one player gets an advantage he just wont let that advantage go.. not someone like Jaedong, Flash or Bisu when they play at their best.
Think about Jaedong vs Bisu GOM BO5... not a single great match exactly because of this, despite it getting to a fifth final game.
Now maybe I just havent watched enough starcraft games, thats entirely possible, but to me it seems like huge comebacks really only ever happen when the one starting with the disadvantage is clearly overall the better player than the other (Flash vs FBH for example).
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Flash had enough gas left in his geysers for 8-9 more vessels, that's assuming he doesn't make any medics or firebats or upgrades.Considering what a good job JD was doing at sniping them, without tanks, this game was over. Without mines, tanks or firebats you simply can't kill ultralisks with a tiny vessel cloud. When 2 S-Class players are playing against each other, every little slip or mistake is capitalised on. There's no way any top calibre zerg player could have lost that game.
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On January 24 2010 09:37 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 09:33 7mk wrote:On January 24 2010 09:25 Foucault wrote:On January 24 2010 09:12 Gigaudas wrote:On January 24 2010 08:55 Foucault wrote:
Yeah, and this is motherfucking Flash we are talking about. I think you're a bit too biased actually. Because Flash was in the hot spot, Jaedong should have stepped up. It's not up to the person who gets the short end of the stack to prove his sportsmanship in a situation like this. That would only make him a martyr and Jaedong would feel worse about it all.
Can we agree that Jaedong was in a very good spot in game three? Now, imagine he were to agree to a rematch and Flash would've won the series. What would that trophy be worth? He was in a good spot, and neither you or anyone else can say exactly how good it was tbh. The trophy would have been worth more than it is now, that's for certain. The series ended up having one game left, with a devastated Flash. And JD walked over him. We can not exactly say how far ahead JD was, but I'd argue that people like Idra, Nony and Ret have a pretty damn good clue. Now I can still see the argument of people (like idra and almost all fans) that a rematch would have been better, even though I disagree But again, your suggestion blaming JD is just bullshit. It would be a different thing if there was a replay to analyze, but there isn't. No one knows exactly what Flash was up to. Like I mentioned earlier, dropships are not too unlikely, and could have turned the game around.
How much do you actually play? There actually is more than enough information to give a solid analysis of the game, you probably just don't realize how much of Starcraft is just economic analysis
Please learn how the game works... "its Motherfucking Flash!" is not an argument.
If a grandmaster has a king, rook and 2 pawns to the other grandmasters king and 2 pawns, the game is over whether they play it out or not.
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Very nice write up. Totally agreed with you.
Thanks for taking the time to put it together.
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Either way, this finals just felt so hollow. I can't help but feel like game 4 was marred by game 3, that the players weren't playing their best. Game 3 may have been 99.9999% in JD's favor but I still wanted to see it play out. Overall, just a very disappointing finals. I'm sure both fans, Flash's obviously more so, feel cheated.
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I didn't know that giving away hard-earned wins was a sign of sportsmanship. Maybe Jaedong should have conceded the rematch and let Flash go up 2-1 just to show he's a sportsman.
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EPT
