I need to stress, only to avoid accusations of being blind by the outcome of this match: BoxeR was not perfect. He is probably first to know that all mechanical skills, agility and reactions are deteriorating from age 25 onwards. That is how he lost first Wraith and more Marines than any modern-era pro would waste after falling into Lurker ambushes.
However
This man is strategical monster! Do you remember best football goalkeepers when they were getting older? Everyone watched over them, predicting spectacular failures, since their moves were getting slower and slower so as everyone thought he can fool them easily. Not so. At the age of 35, great goalies like Oliver Kahn or Peter Schmeichel had already tons of experience and never needed to move that fast: they could just wait for a ball exactly where it's was going to appear.
That is how BoxeR computes these days. Playing against slight advantage in terms of mechanics, he maximized his strategic edge over Killer - and punished him for spreading too thin. Watch this replay again, and catch these little details of brilliancy:
- 1st Marine cancelled after Overlord goes out of sight. - 2 Wraiths not being lured by vulnerable Drones at Zerg natural and instead going for Baxter's third, since it was much more exposed to harass. - Nuke Silo being destroyed AND rebuild in the same place, when noone could expect such stubborn move from player whose intentions were scouted already.
And that's not enough.
To tell the truth, Boxer's game wasn't perfect also because he mindfucked his opponent. To continue football analogies: he was like old goalie winning penalty shootout by diving all the time in one direction just to change it in critical moment. Boxer played exactly this way: when everyone expected he will abandon air harass (1st Wraith went down), he persisted to make it happen. When Nuke Silo was gone, he replaced it. So, in fact, the point is: by doing strategically weird things he overcome tactical bloopers; no, he even TURNED these mistakes into advantage.
If anyone still wonders why it's Lim Yo-Hwan who became No.1 superstar of progaming, despite NaDa won more titles: watch that game. Boxer makes more mistakes than Bisu, is slower than Jaedong and macroes worse than Flash. But he knows how to dominate opponents; he knows how to destroy their minds so they would just sit still and ask themselves what's going on. And my final point is, that he does it by being imperfect, being erratic, being against the principles.
Wow just watched the game. Boxer is amazing. His plays are so genius. I love how he goes nuke in so many of his games. He definitely still knows how to entertain a crowd.
unecessary to boast about some old school guy who can never compete with the modern day players
psssssttttttttttttttt......he won.
Also if boxer beat a mediocre player doesn't that make him good?? Of course he's not at the top of the list right now because the game has changed so much since he was in his prime. I think its awesome that he can still play in his entertaining style and still be pretty damned good. Seriously haters gonna hate.
to be honest: this game wasn't that special. if a player like iris or leta would have played that game instead of boxer (what could be absolutely possible if you ask me), no one would have taken note of it. it was still a good watch i always love to see boxer win though.
On October 26 2009 06:14 Itachii wrote: Not only Killer got owned and mind fucked, but his team was also morally destroyed, i mean look at this haha
All these little things which OP has pointed out are obviously harder for you to spot and understand , so no wonder you prefer watching Flash over our Emperor.
Come on.. Killer probably played the worst ZvT ever done in a Proleague match.. Even SKT1 B-Team would have raped badly Killer this game. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Boxer won a PL game but god.... he didn't play that good -.-
How can you expect to do anythnig with those 6-8 hydra at the start?? lol And losing like 20 lurker to mine... tha twas the worst attack ever done by a Zerg
Seriously, Killer was just plain bad, no need to start 30 thread to say how awesome Boxer was since he faced a palyer that wouldn't even reach A- in iccup O.o
lot of people in here who can't be happy for what this was: Boxer winning, and doing it with panache. I don't think anyone is reading too much into it. Though one does wonder why Oz sent out Baxter in an ace match last week :-/
Yeah, yeah, Killer sucked. So what? Beating opponent who sucks takes all credit out of the winner?
Itachii pretty much summarized what I said - BoxeR does weird things just to force unorthodox gameplay, when you cannot 'go standard' and win by better micro or timing. Going crazy is in fact smart way of playing to his strenghts: game sense and flexibility. I'm pretty sure Killer would not feel so obliged to do something (what he did is another story), if he faced 'typical' TvZer.
How can you expect to do anythnig with those 6-8 hydra at the start?? lol And losing like 20 lurker to mine... tha twas the worst attack ever done by a Zerg
Seriously, Killer was just plain bad, no need to start 30 thread to say how awesome Boxer was since he faced a palyer that wouldn't even reach A- in iccup O.o
wouldn't reach A- in iccup? are you serious? I thought all progamers more or less were A- at least.
keep in mind that even the worst progamers are better than most all foreigners.
Boxer winning wasn't important. What was important was that he showed that through smart play (Horang2 did some of this before he somehow turned retarded this season) and basically deep sixed the inexperienced Killer from the get go. Watching Flash currently rip through Zergs is amazing, but this was pretty amusing.
With SKT's strong lineup (Bisu, Fantasy, Hyuk/Best), I hope we see more Boxer because let's face it, Bisu and Fantasy can reliably win games, Hyuk is fine as long as its not a terran and Best is still a vastly better protoss than most teams have in their lineups.
(Oh just to nitpick, the VOD of Boxer and Flash was when Flash was like 15. I don't think anyone is debating that Boxer's experience allows him to smash through inexperienced players easily)
That game was just depressing to watch IMO. The only part of that VOD worth watching is after the match is over and Boxer flashes his Obama-caliber smile. Mediocre (at absolute best) play from both players. Personally I'm of the attitude that Boxer should have gone the way of iloveoov and retired to coachdom a long time ago. He's just a gimmick now and this game practically proves it by itself. Going nukes in this game didn't even make sense and I just can't believe the OP is calling Boxer's decision "genius"... I mean he killed like 3(!) drones with that nuke and made a few building bleed...
How can you expect to do anythnig with those 6-8 hydra at the start?? lol And losing like 20 lurker to mine... tha twas the worst attack ever done by a Zerg
Seriously, Killer was just plain bad, no need to start 30 thread to say how awesome Boxer was since he faced a palyer that wouldn't even reach A- in iccup O.o
That charge was hilarious. It was like "oh crap I'm behind on econ I need to attack right now. Should I scout first? Nah no time for thatI'll just move in all my lurkers in one big clump, right towards his seiged up tanks and mine field. That'll work."
Baxter played a horrible game and lost like 8(?) lurkers to 2 mines thus losing his giant midgame advantage. Then he proceeded to play like absolute garbage as per the norm for baxter. Check your fanboyism at the door that was a god awful game by both players and I love LYH just as much as the next guy
Hey, kvilx, pay no heed to those who are flaming you for posting a thought-out and well written article.
I have yet to watch the match you linked so I can't say if I agree with what you wrote or not, but I can say that I found it to be a good read. You clearly sat down and thought about what you watched and then wrote a nice text about it. For that I thank you; always nice to see quality contributions and deeper analysis than "yeah, BoxeR won!".
How can you expect to do anythnig with those 6-8 hydra at the start?? lol And losing like 20 lurker to mine... tha twas the worst attack ever done by a Zerg
Seriously, Killer was just plain bad, no need to start 30 thread to say how awesome Boxer was since he faced a palyer that wouldn't even reach A- in iccup O.o
That charge was hilarious. It was like "oh crap I'm behind on econ I need to attack right now. Should I scout first? Nah no time for thatI'll just move in all my lurkers in one big clump, right towards his seiged up tanks and mine field. That'll work."
Boxer totally abused the fact that he had the mental edge. When he hit the 3rd gas with MnM he made a tank+mine line at his nat, and since the lurks were too slow to go home Killer just did the knee jerk reaction and amoved into the minefield and tankline without defiler tech instead of securing his gases.
The nuke silo was another thing that Boxer abused - he made the silo in clear sight of Killer's moving army and planted many tank (no pun) on the no man's land near it. Since Killer didnt want to be humiliated he just randomly charged up to the terran 3rd and lost forces repeatedly to that, ironically causing him to again suffer the humiliation of nuke.
Honestly though, how he didnt capitalise on the early weakness of tech openings and boxer losing his 1st wraith is inexcusable for a young pro's mechanics >.>
On October 26 2009 22:24 DustBowl wrote: That game was just depressing to watch IMO. The only part of that VOD worth watching is after the match is over and Boxer flashes his Obama-caliber smile. Mediocre (at absolute best) play from both players. Personally I'm of the attitude that Boxer should have gone the way of iloveoov and retired to coachdom a long time ago. He's just a gimmick now and this game practically proves it by itself. Going nukes in this game didn't even make sense and I just can't believe the OP is calling Boxer's decision "genius"... I mean he killed like 3(!) drones with that nuke and made a few building bleed...
My God are you ignorant.
All the haters in this thread are ripping on Boxer because of that one wraith loss and because of Killer's play. Two things:
1) People make mistakes. It happens. People rip on Boxer for this because they're convinced that he's not good enough for progaming anymore. What ever happened to mind over mechanics? Which brings me to my next point:
2) Mind over mechanics. Many people in the stream thread said he (Baxter) looked nervous. Well, of course he was! He going up against a player that MADE THIS GAME WHAT IT IS TODAY. I can't see Jaedong or any other current S-class progamer being at least mildly intimidated by that. Intimidation leads to mistakes, and plus he already lost to him previously in one of the GOM seasons. He was under a lot of pressure to perform, and he buckled under it. Combine the fact that Baxter was intimidated with the fact that Boxer is still the best (without question) at duping his opponents, you find a player incapable of making correct decisions.
Yeah, I'm a fanboy, and I'll scream like a Korean schoolgirl when Boxer gets on stage, but people on here, worst of all you, are so biased because Boxer is loved by so many because of what you perceive as mediocrity. It is important to have mechanics, but if you can play mind games with your opponent by doing unorthodox builds and also having fame of past success, then you are obviously the better player. Boxer also has the luxury of spending a lot of time in those booths, where Baxter did not. Maybe he does well in team practice, but if he can't perform on stage like Boxer does (whose mistakes likely come from lack of mechanics practice), then he, again, is still not the better player.
He may not be an all-around force anymore but he's still got the TvZ magic; it's not out of the question to see him prosper (if given the chance) as a TvZ sniper.
On October 26 2009 22:24 DustBowl wrote: That game was just depressing to watch IMO. The only part of that VOD worth watching is after the match is over and Boxer flashes his Obama-caliber smile. Mediocre (at absolute best) play from both players. Personally I'm of the attitude that Boxer should have gone the way of iloveoov and retired to coachdom a long time ago. He's just a gimmick now and this game practically proves it by itself. Going nukes in this game didn't even make sense and I just can't believe the OP is calling Boxer's decision "genius"... I mean he killed like 3(!) drones with that nuke and made a few building bleed...
My God are you ignorant.
All the haters in this thread are ripping on Boxer because of that one wraith loss and because of Killer's play. Two things:
1) People make mistakes. It happens. People rip on Boxer for this because they're convinced that he's not good enough for progaming anymore. What ever happened to mind over mechanics? Which brings me to my next point:
2) Mind over mechanics. Many people in the stream thread said he (Baxter) looked nervous. Well, of course he was! He going up against a player that MADE THIS GAME WHAT IT IS TODAY. I can't see Jaedong or any other current S-class progamer being at least mildly intimidated by that. Intimidation leads to mistakes, and plus he already lost to him previously in one of the GOM seasons. He was under a lot of pressure to perform, and he buckled under it. Combine the fact that Baxter was intimidated with the fact that Boxer is still the best (without question) at duping his opponents, you find a player incapable of making correct decisions.
Yeah, I'm a fanboy, and I'll scream like a Korean schoolgirl when Boxer gets on stage, but people on here, worst of all you, are so biased because Boxer is loved by so many because of what you perceive as mediocrity. It is important to have mechanics, but if you can play mind games with your opponent by doing unorthodox builds and also having fame of past success, then you are obviously the better player. Boxer also has the luxury of spending a lot of time in those booths, where Baxter did not. Maybe he does well in team practice, but if he can't perform on stage like Boxer does (whose mistakes likely come from lack of mechanics practice), then he, again, is still not the better player.
Sorry, I don't seen any Mind game in this match... Killer was just sucking from START to END. No need to get into his head when he just plain suck..
If that exact game was palying by Lomo or Bogus or any low-tier terran, it would be just anothe rsucky game but because Boxer was in it, everyone jump in and say how good that game was and how brillant Boxer was in this game but ... this game was really bad.
On October 26 2009 22:24 DustBowl wrote: That game was just depressing to watch IMO. The only part of that VOD worth watching is after the match is over and Boxer flashes his Obama-caliber smile. Mediocre (at absolute best) play from both players. Personally I'm of the attitude that Boxer should have gone the way of iloveoov and retired to coachdom a long time ago. He's just a gimmick now and this game practically proves it by itself. Going nukes in this game didn't even make sense and I just can't believe the OP is calling Boxer's decision "genius"... I mean he killed like 3(!) drones with that nuke and made a few building bleed...
The game is pure entertainment and shouldnt be seen otherwise. Boxer is a showman, he gave the audience what they wanted and all D players saying that the game is mediocre at best should just go back watching the Bacchus OSL finals, OMG JAEDONG AMAZING CONTROL BEST PLAYER EVER, JVZ
well, Im indifferent. I found the game was very sloppy by both players. + Show Spoiler +
Those 2 wraiths from Boxer did MUCH more damage than 2 wraiths should Boxer's overall army control looked disorganized, just like his buildings placements. The game looked very sketchy and improvised.
Nonethless, I find it such a great pleasure to see Boxer winning any match. It does not matter if he plays well or now, he is starcraft, Like the game's protagonist. If Boxer wins it is a GG.
I pity the people that can't find entertainment in a game.
This age fucking sucks, the only thing that all these "newfags" care about is winning with perfect mechanics, macro, and multi-tasking. This is what all the bandwagoning threads were about, caring about winners rather than liking the players that actually play with personality.
On October 26 2009 18:33 LibertyTerran wrote: This game is mediocre at best. Very sloppy play from Boxer.
I have to agree with this. From a technical standpoint, the game was actually quite dissapointing. Boxer`s build order was neither here nor there (he seems to have adopted Flash`s "Just build everything" policy) and his control was very poor at times. Plus, he went for Nukes, even though he was not really that far ahead at that point. Had it not been for Killer`s really bad mistakes (particularly when he ran his large group of Lurkers into a minefield), I am not sure if this game would have ended the way it did.
Having said that, however, I was pleasantly suprised that Boxer was included in a series that actually mattered (although one could also claim that they only featured him beacuse he would be unable to do much damage to SKT`s performance this early in the season even if he lost....but let us pretend for a second that was not the case). If there is anything I hate more then the hype that surrounds Boxer, it is the almost hypocritical stance both SKT and his fans seem to take regarding the frequency of his participation.
"He can`t play regularly beacuse he cannot carry the team like Bisu and Fantasy can" people will often say. Well, if he is supposed to be "the greatest and most adaptive player of all time", that should really not represent a problem to him. Even Leta and Sea[Shield] (both of which cannot achieve anything noteworthy in the individual leagues if their lives depended on it) at least carry their respective teams in the ProLeague. So if he is supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, he should be more then capable of competing with the best at least in Proleague. In short, show some confidence in the hero you so praise! >: (
Also, even though I am not a Nada fan, I fail to see why this game proves he is not the number one progamer of all time. Infact, I am flabbergasted how come that is even a point of contention. Nada has 6 major titles to his name and was consistently among the best for 7 years until he reached the rock bottom of his career earlier this year. While titles are not everything, they are still a measure of success in competitive sports. Boxer cannot match that, therefore he does not qualify for the title (even though he is undisputably among the best progamers of all time).
Boxer's got Charisma and he's paved the way for E-sports more than any other progamer in his past but lets not tie the skill level of his games with these things and claim that his plays are genius. Only thing he's good at now is killing Zergs and Zergs aren't that hard to kill when you play T.
I don't have any negative / fandom bias toward Boxer but I really feel like some people go crazy about his modern plays to the point where its getting really annoying.
On October 27 2009 07:25 kvilx wrote: Umm, I wonder if at least some of those BoxeR's alergeeks at least read my writeup...
Well, I am not an "alergeek" (I dislike the hype that surrounds him; I have no reason to dislike the man himself since I do not know him personally), but I did read your writeup. I actually was not really responding to you specifically; I was just providing some general thoughts on Boxer and his game against Killer.
On October 27 2009 07:25 kvilx wrote: Umm, I wonder if at least some of those BoxeR's alergeeks at least read my writeup...
Well, I am not an "alergeek" (I dislike the hype that surrounds him; I have no reason to dislike the man himself since I do not know him personally), but I did read your writeup. I actually was not really responding to you specifically; I was just providing some general thoughts on Boxer and his game against Killer.
That generally wasn't aimed at you, but when you read other answers... Meh.
I thought that boxer's build was kind of cool really. Killer didn't know how to respond properly, and the fact that it was a pretty new map didn't help as well. Boxer made a ton of mechanical mistakes, and Killer made a bunch of bad decisions. Just goes to show that decisionmaking is still > mechanics, even at the "lower levels" (if you can call a game with boxer at lower levels) of proleague play
Why are people critiquing this game so hard on technique? Yes both players were sloppy based on a progamer standard. Why does that stop your enjoyment of the game?
People have fun watching A and B-level ICCup players all the time at foreigner events. Most of those games show skill levels below the levels of these players. That doesn't make their games less entertaining.
The game produced excitement, and had some crazy moments. Isn't that enough?
holy FUCK that was LEGENDARY!!!!! killer/baxter wtf was fucked in the ass psychologically, he obviously had no fucking idea what was going on and what to do about it
On October 28 2009 09:21 biomedical wrote: holy FUCK that was LEGENDARY!!!!! killer/baxter wtf was fucked in the ass psychologically, he obviously had no fucking idea what was going on and what to do about it
Idk, I thought killer's play wasnt bad strategically...He had a good gameplan against the wraiths (if not executed perfectly), sniped the first wraith, and had fast swarm to counter the mnm tank push. Boxer adapted well though and the peeks at unconventional play we got really screwed with Killer. I agree with OP for the most part.
EPT
BoxeR vs 
Killer on Tornado.
Bisu, is slower than 
and good VOD.
![[image loading]](http://i38.tinypic.com/k99h77.jpg)
