EPTGonzaw, there's a chance we ruin each other's plans.
Boardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Gonzaw, there's a chance we ruin each other's plans. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 03 2013 12:49 sinani206 wrote: does anyone have a link to that role tier list that someone posted a few months ago? I remembered something similar, went looking through the last PTP game but couldn't find it. Must have been somewhere else. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Late start. If you want to argue about the setup, please read the last PYP game like this before doing so. Same discussions. I think there is reasonable discussion there that we don't need to have again. If you're arguing about how we choose roles/numbers/whatever this game without reading that or referencing it, you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're spamming up the thread in a way that isn't helpful. This game is different in two major ways that I see. (1) Different role list. (2) Some players getting bonuses for picking a specific type of role. I like the ideas from the older PYP of denying certain strong mafia roles (Janitor is VERY powerful, think of how much damage a 12-hour delayed SINGLE flip caused in Personality 2. Now imagine a N1 janitor usage in a game full of PYP-ed KP roles, and 4-5 flips FOREVER hidden. No bueno). Multi-KP roles, Janitor, other roles are things that we NEED to deny as town. In this game "pick the best role for town" often equals "deny mafia their best role" because they will often be able to use a role super-optimally where town can't (town doc doesn't always save, mafia KP role always hits townies, stuff like that). Once we have a picking order, we SHOULD be assigning some roles, and I also like RNGing some roles so that scum can't 100% know what's left and what's not. Any scum receiving VT is FANTASTIC for us. Artanis, we can both block roles AND RNG. They did last game and it made some sense. Check the bit on how (1), (2), and (3) in that game were supposed to pick. seriously though, if you're going back and forth with someone(s) about whether we should do x or y, at the very least go read the last game. Especially Qatol's posts, which tended to be super sensible and concise. We want to plan for the best draft we can get. Reading their planning stages, and how it played out for them, should be part of our planning. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:17 Oatsmaster wrote: The difference between Personality 2 and this game was that personality 2 was a closed setup.. So out of reading that game Austin, What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do? The reason janitor is powerful has to do with what you saw in Personality 2 (if you can't just intuit how no-flipping N1 could be crazy good). Heck...Aperture 1 had a janitor use early when a bunch of people died iirc. Janitor + big game + lots of KP = big lack of information for town. It's a strong role, even though all it does is mess with information. The difference in setup does not make a role that mucks with flips a weak one. I think we need to pick numbers for now. Next phase is where plans can really be hatched. I like the idea of everyone taking a public stance as to 3 roles that they think are the strongest for mafia and should be denied, as well as specifically WHY they chose those. That is something we can do now, pre-order and pre-role-picking. This list is different from that list, and we may want to deny different things than they did in that game. It's not the biggest stance ever, but it forces each player to take a stance on what roles are pro-mafia, and so also has the effect of limiting someone's ability to later say that they chose x, used the power, but tried to do so in a pro-town way. We also can look through who is/isn't spamming, who actually has good/town-favored ideas, and start making reads. But hopefully you've already started doing that and it should go without saying. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
(1) CPR doc - In mafia hands this is a multi-shot vig but without accountability (america = multi-shot nuker but has to publicly out self). Doubles mafia KP, but secretly. (2) Assassin - See above. Mafia knows all alignments, therefore this is a multi-shot vig without accountability. (3) Janitor - Information from flips good for town. Lack of that information for town bad. LOTS of KP roles in this game, good chance that some townies will be firing as well as mafia maybe getting extra KP, so there's the chance to hide multiple flips. (4) Role swapper/copy cat - These are dangerous only in that they can be used to get dangerous roles. Role swapper somewhat prevents town from denying mafia a role, but power still out of mafia hands for a night and the town role swapper then basically can DT check someone (if they've claimed, see if they're lying. If not, can you tell whether they've used their role, and in a townie/scummy way?). Copy cat another way to try and get a strong power passed down. Roles that I considered but dont' think are as strong as they look: (1) Hooker - Multi-shot vig without accountability. Stronger than the above because you CAN infect multiple targets. Weaker than the above because can be medic protected off. Also weaker than the above because, HOPEFULLY, if a townie knows he's going to die next cycle, he can be very vocal and is trustworthy/semi-confirmed-town (given that town hookers shouldn't be hooking willy-nilly, so we can assume he was targeted by a mafia hooker). | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Inventor was a consideration of mine, but the fact that you have to give your inventions to other players weakens it somewhat. Possible that mafia end up implicating themselves slightly if they're only giving inventions to each other, and each player can only receive inventions once. Plus all inventions have to be one-shot, and you can't re-invent the same thing. There are enough restrictions that it limits the ability for the role to cause serious damage. As to denying roles/RNGing later down the list, I think it's a good idea if we can get people to agree on a plan of denial. The fact that mafia has a single factional KP is very important, especially in a game where we could also have a lot of protective roles. They NEED roles to win this, town doesn't. Time favors town, especially in a game where people can be outed based on what they pick, how they use, detective checks, etc. etc. I don't like the idea of having someone too far down the list RNG. Mafia is going to want x role or y role. The further down the list the RNG happens, the higher the chance that: (1) multiple mafioso are above the RNGer, and can pull shennanies; (2) mafia can just risk the RNG, because the chance that RNG steals the role they want to preserve are lower (50% chance at pick 3 last game, 20% chance at pick 6). | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 04 2013 23:48 Oatsmaster wrote: Look deeper. The more people that come out saying "I think x, y, and z are mafia-favored roles," the higher the chance is later in the game that we catch someone using role x after admitting it was mafia-favored. They can't just say "Yeah I used my power but I didn't think it would be bad for town, don't lynch kk."How in the world does stating setup information help town? What? Thats saying why GF is a good role. WHAT IS THE POINT? Plus, if nothing else, we've already had confusion over the janitor role. Talking about it yielded an explanation of how it works, now everyone is on the same page. Maybe people aren't reading the role list closely. Maybe people don't understand why something is/isn't powerful. I also personally just find it more fruitful as a discussion topic than heavy heavy plan chatter, which we'll have to bring up again tomorrow once we actually have a picking order. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
It's a one-shot skip-a-day. It's pardoner but without the information from the day. Because of their limited KP, I don't think it' ALL that strong as it gives all DTs a second check, medics will still be active, etc. etc. I don't think the setup makes it stronger than a multi-vig, when their real concern is most likely to be lack of KP. I don't want to talk more about RNG right at this moment. Big game, want to see more discussion and thoughts from others before we go deeper with that. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 05 2013 02:25 Keirathi wrote: I think you're reading Assassin wrong. AFAIK, a scum assassin can't say ##Kill austinmcc GREEN. Its either ##Kill: austinmcc ROLENAME, or ##Kill austinmcc RED. I think I read it wrong as well. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Having people take KP roles and then lynching them if they ever hit town is sillypants. I have not seen any multi-shot vigis hit only scum. And vigis probably aren't even 50/50 across the board hitting scum with the first shot. So instead, what we get is someone who THINKS that they're going to do better than the average vigi, probably still hits town, and then we spend a lynch killing a townie who thought he could be an outlier. Even if you choose vigi and shoot scum then town, congrats. We are now supposed to lynch you and than means we lost 2 townies for one scum player AND had to use a lynch on you. Don't like town KP roles using it, because scum NEEDS extra KP flying around to win. Don't like planning for what happens if town KP roles use it, because they shouldn't be, except in corner cases where we have investigations we trust or something of that sort. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 05 2013 23:10 Oatsmaster wrote: I am suggesting that town don't use KP. There will be corner cases - DT checks, possibly to keep any heavy lurkers we have out of the lynch discussion later on by shooting them a couple days in, etc.So you are suggesting town dont use KP right? The point of lynching dudes if they hit town, its a policy. POLICY. Its supposed to give really really bad odds for scum to claim vig/ get outed after they shot town. Also discourages town from using KP. Its optimal for town to not use their KP. Other than lynches But in general, I don't think town should be firing off KP because, imo, the more quick deaths the better for scum this game. A longer game in which people have roles, we have checks, we have confirmations of role uses and whatnot, is going to favor town. It simply gets more and more difficult to hide that you chose a mafia-favored role or used your role in a mafia-ish manner. So the longer the game goes, better for town, therefore the less KP thrown around, better for town. If someone really wants to hero it up with KP, there's the magical compulsive scum-only vigi in the game. There's the assassin. I think it's BETTER for town to take the normal KP roles and not use them, because of the above paragraph, but if the only thing you're going to do this game is grab a KP role, flop your e-peen on the table, and shoot scum, then use one of those two roles. That way you don't hit townies and we don't need to discuss policy lynching people who shoot townies. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Given past results, I don't think a policy would stop behavior, and I don't think we'd follow through on the policy. We've already got a game with 5 scum and a couple players known for trolling, I don't see the upside of adding policy lynch targets to that mix balancing out the upside of people just not shooting. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 05 2013 23:39 Oatsmaster wrote: It is not bad to have that policy, per se.Why is it bad to have a policy If you shoot town, AND WE KNOW. You get lynched? It was mentioned earlier that there was a ton of KP in themed and thats kinda how town lost, as well as in Personality. 5 people got nukes. 4 of them used them on TOWNIES. So I think its a really good policy and we should do it. The reason this is different, is cause its COMPLETELY obvious and also You have to be PROACTIVE to get policy lynched, not like lurky or whatever. It is unreasonable to assume that people will policy lynch folks instead of scumreads/lurkers/whatever. If you know of a game in which the playerbase actually policy lynched multiple folks based of some policy that they created in the game, let me know. Otherwise, consider that it is highly unlikely that "HAI GAIZ THIS IZ POLICY" will yield lynches according to that policy. I dislike the policy itself. It's goal is to keep town KP directed at scum. Which it doesn't do at all. Townies who think they might get mislynched if they shoot townies don't magically have better aim. In no way does the "policy" actually improve shots. Instead, what it does is encourage NOT SHOOTING, which we can do without policy lynching, because "don't shoot" is better than "the idea of shooting should be less good because we'll totally burn a day mislynching a townie if you shoot town." One says please don't be dumb. The other says, "Oh boy, you guys are gonna be dumb, and town as a whole is going to mislynch to punish that stupidity!" I'm more interested in hearing from Keirathi about this, actually. He proposed the lynches, and I'd like to know why he thinks this sounds like a good idea, and why he thinks it would actually work in a game. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Having a policy isn't "bad." But I think this is actually not a good policy, and I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to policy lynch no matter what policy you propose. Let alone that you're trying to organize policy lynches, which I don't recall seeing ever work, in a game in which there are multiple roles that give extra votes/vote steals/end day early powers/multi-lynches/etc. etc. etc. You are attempting to control town in a manner that towns don't normally cooperate with, and in a game where you can't ensure control. That is another issue. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 06 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote: It is not that I, or we, don't get it. It is that you have unreasonable expecatations AND are overly complicating this. Go read the posts over. You are trying to do something that you cannot do (enforce policy lynches) in order to get people to do something they should be doing without a policy. For now, we should quit filling the thread.The Goal of the KILL DUDES WHO KILL TOWNIES POLICY LYNCH. Is to STOP dudes from using KP. The less KP there is, the better town is. This is the point of the policy. GEDDIT? That is not to say that Keirathi should not be filling the thread, for proposing this and then stepping back. You have made your thoughts clear, Keirathi has not. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
*note: There is a new rule in place. In the event that your first AND second numbers clash with another player you both go straight to the bottom of the order. So if 3 players picked [4][1], [4][1] and [4][7] the 2 players with [4][1] are bumped below the player that picked [4][7] along with the original bump. All in All the most unique number combination gets priority. Therefore, not everyone has to be 8s in there. You could have multiple people picking [9] to [20] as a first number, but different second numbers, and then the last folks picking the exact same two numbers. That way, the [9] to [20] pickers would be behind the [8] pickers, but in front of people who picked the exact same two numbers. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:39 Restraining Order wrote: I think we're gonna need a bigger rope.And I would lynch all of those people. And I would lynch all of those people. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Scum picked [1][1] last game in a similar manner. Therefore, town will be watching for that and it won't work again Mafia know town will be watching, so maybe it will work because they'll assume mafia won't try it again The pick just leads to that loop, even if he said he'd grab [1][1] pre-game. It's null. Only two things stand out about him if you don't use the [1][1]. This post: On April 05 2013 14:38 Sn0_Man wrote: Was there a consensus as to what I was picking first? No i'm not doing a silly "deny" pick like janitor. I'm not really in any hurry to share my pick but if we came to a solid consensus I'll pick it. This thread is a lot longer than I expected during the draft phase though  . I cant say I'm experienced with PYPs but I was under the impression that vigs still shoot their scumreads no? and something that is sooper secret. That post blows if it's from town because: (1) He deliberately avoids any discussion of the denial picks, not "tell me again why I should deny," not "I don't really want to deny," but just "I'm not doing a silly denial." I don't like the way he announces he's not going to participate in what is, as far as I can tell, a very pro-town thing to do with high picks. (2) Is similar. Instead of discussing any of the KP stuff, which was overdiscussed, I'll admit, he just drops that line. It adds NOTHING to the KP/vigi/policy conversation, except this half-ass remark when there have been legitimate reasons given why vigis shouldn't just be popping caps in every scumread they have. It's not a shooting down of discussion, it's not participating in the discussion when it is ongoing, then dropping a thought that is absolutely not helpful AT ALL on the subject later. | ||
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