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I'm a platinum league Protoss player and my goal is to improve as quickly as possible, since time is valuable. Although I am going to talk about PvZ, this is just an example and I think this discussion covers all ins in all matchups.
Every PvZ I do the same build - 2 base 7-gate immortal/sentry all in. This build is much harder to defend than it is to execute. I win almost every single game. But I'm not sure if I should continue with the build.
The upside of Immortal/sentry is that it wins me games. Winning games raises my MMR, which means I face better opponents. By playing against better opponents I can improve quickly - or can I?
The downside is that because I all-in every PvZ, I have little experience playing lategame PvZ. Since Immortal/Sentry is harder to defend than execute, by using this build my MMR is artificially inflated. Eventually I will face better players who can defeat the all-in. Due to my limited PvZ skillset, I will then lose many games against better players, but because there players are so far above my head, I won't be able to improve at all - or will I?
The above analysis suggests that there is both an upside and a downside, but I'm not certain about either. The question is, if I want to improve as quickly as possible, which outweighs the other? At what point should I put down Immortal/Sentry and try a different play style?
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well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve?
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On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve?
do you know the person who said that or link? i'd like to read more on it.
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sorry for offtop :
i'm gold Protoss, started playing SC2 like 2 weeks ago but i have some problems with execute immortal/sentry 7 gate all in, can u show some replays ? like 2-3 in .rar ?
User was warned for this post
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up to top plat, just expand and build stalker sentry zealot and win with macro!!
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Mastering this build will help you getting better at macroing a two base economy, but like you said, won't help you too much in late game PvZ.
Since you seem to have it down, I'd advise moving onto taking a more passive stance with Immortal/Sentry to take a quick third. That way you can learn about the three base timings and even late game play against Broodlord/Infestor, as well as improve your macro on 3-4+ base.
Best of luck. 
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one needs to learn to add more production when required, if you just *7* gate all in, you will never learn when you need more. Therefore once you expand, you stay on just 7 gates..
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On September 23 2012 16:32 CodeskyE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve? do you know the person who said that or link? i'd like to read more on it.
i think that was a kespa protoss player, but don t ask me which
was said in an interview, i can t find it anymore
he said he struggles in pvz lategame with the mothership, but tries to learn every aspect of the game
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Macro play is the best way to improve. All-ins cut the game short and prevent you from learning how to deal with mid and late game scenarios.
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Canada16217 Posts
Macroing instead of all-inning will always improve your game, If you keep immortal/sentry all-inning it won't improve your play at all. Macro in all 3 match ups and you will improve.
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I think it will help your micro and execution of this one build, but I don't think it will be as beneficial as trying different things for long term play. I too, use this in my arsenal vs zerg, but not every game.
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I suppose it's good for practicing your FF micro.
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On September 23 2012 16:32 CodeskyE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve? do you know the person who said that or link? i'd like to read more on it.
I think it was on this interview : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339200
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On September 23 2012 17:00 PixelNite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 16:32 CodeskyE wrote:On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve? do you know the person who said that or link? i'd like to read more on it. I think it was on this interview : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339200
yeah that could be it
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Don't let the macro trolls get you down -- learning how to all-in properly is a skill that requires practice, and will make you a better player in general. In order to all-in at the highest levels, your execution needs to be perfect, which is not always the case at lower levels.
It's easy to copy a pro build and perform it well for quick and dirty wins. It's much less easy detecting weakness/risky builds from your opponent and choosing to branch off into an all-in because of what you scouted. This requires building game sense from playing many many macro games.
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On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve?
You're taking a quote without saying who said it and without giving us an idea about what context it was said in and then you're misusing it to argue people whose mechanics arent top-kespa level should always go for macro game.
A build like 3 Immortal 1-1 push is great for practicing forcefielding positioning and decision making which Im sure would benefit the OP.
Edit: typo.
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winning with an all in is like going cheating on a test, you can cheat on this test and get an A (higher league) and your grade(league) will reflect but since you did cheat on this test that means you didn't really learn anything which means you didn't really deserve the grade you got. I know people who all in every game and they are in diamond and masters, they will try to play game against each other where they don't cheese or all in and its like watching gold leaguers play( not meant to be rude). Just because your in diamond or masters doesn't mean your macro game is. I get cheesed or all-in plenty of times when i play and I'm in masters.
Ups about immortal sentry all in- It will help you work on your force fields which is really under rated in how well a protoss player is. I know plenty of builds (typically pvt) where if you do not force field correctly you just lose the game right out. So by working on making your force fields efficient is something that will help you play better.
Downs about all ins- You are basically only going to be good up to that point. MC for instance is amazing at his all ins. You can have me do a +2 7 gate blink stalking all in and have MC do it and he will have a larger army and better economy AND most likely will be 20+ second ahead of me in attacking with the same upgrades. So it does take skill to do these build correctly and efficiently BUT you will learn to do this and when it fails your done so you will not be comfortable past a certain time period in the game. Another thing about all ins and skill is that you will never learn the little things that other players will know about there race if you just do the same build every game. For instance knowing how many gateways to have on 3 base when going for colosi out of 1 robo and trying to get a mothership out with a forge going for +3 attack. Macro players will generally know a number and all in players will never get to this point in the game to learn these things.
All ins have a place in this game, If everyone played just Macro then this game would be predictable and boring so if you choose to just play all ins it is fine, but if your wanting to get better then you should stop doing these allin build so much and learn to take a 3rd base with immortal sentry instead of trying to win with it right away.
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It should help. Sentry Immortal all-ins require very decent force fields, something that you definitely should practice. It also relies on your build being pretty crisp, constant warp ins, never getting supply capped, etc. Every delay makes this build highly ineffective, so despite it being ridiculously good when done right, it definitely requires you to execute it well.
Also, you still have 2 other matchups where you should face higher MMR opponents based on your PvZ success alone.
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On September 23 2012 17:06 myRZeth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 17:00 PixelNite wrote:On September 23 2012 16:32 CodeskyE wrote:On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote:
well for improving you should never have started all inning
look at what the kespa pros stated
"i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible"
can you see how damn fast they improve? do you know the person who said that or link? i'd like to read more on it. I think it was on this interview : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339200 yeah that could be it
wow that was bisu who said that.
thank you guys :D
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On September 23 2012 17:28 iglocska wrote:
It should help. Sentry Immortal all-ins require very decent force fields, something that you definitely should practice. It also relies on your build being pretty crisp, constant warp ins, never getting supply capped, etc. Every delay makes this build highly ineffective, so despite it being ridiculously good when done right, it definitely requires you to execute it well.
Also, you still have 2 other matchups where you should face higher MMR opponents based on your PvZ success alone.
^ quality reply, wish there were more like these.
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EPT
