EPT[D] All-ins (Immortal/Sentry) good for improving? - Page 3
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Xaddy
Sweden41 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
With timing attacks if you fuck up your macro at any point you usually just lose. Being able to execute a timing as powerfully as mc is a great skill to have. also i do it often because i just feel in the current metagame it has been found that fast 3 hatch, 6 minute double gas, with this late lair is just an unsafe build yet people will not try and experiment with anything else. I don't think you can beat sentry immortal without drop tech, muta or infestors therefore i think earlier lair tech is needed by zergs in zvp. | ||
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CodeskyE
United States777 Posts
i pretty much played protoss in sc2 but all my fave players are terran lol | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 23 2012 21:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: timing attacks actually require better macro and are often better practice than playing 'macro' games. The reason for this is if you are not engaging until 200 supply you can inefficiently get there but still win the game. With timing attacks if you fuck up your macro at any point you usually just lose. Being able to execute a timing as powerfully as mc is a great skill to have. also i do it often because i just feel in the current metagame it has been found that fast 3 hatch, 6 minute double gas, with this late lair is just an unsafe build yet people will not try and experiment with anything else. I don't think you can beat sentry immortal without drop tech, muta or infestors therefore i think earlier lair tech is needed by zergs in zvp. I think the above is all true. Besides, if people insist on leaving themselves open to early game timings then you should keep exploiting said timing. Why pass on an early advantage and let some guy open greedy out of some misguided sense of ethics in which smashing an unprepared opponant is considered bad form? | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
The question always comes down to: What is skill? If skill is a high ladder ranking -> why doesn't everyone just cheese their way up to master? If skill is being good at the macro game -> why doesn't everyone open up really safe? I mean, I could've probably been a higher league (top platinum atm) if I would all-in in some matches but I just feel like... I want to be able to out macro my opponent in every game. This makes the improvement really slow but atleast I'm at the same level as my opponent, both macro- and micro wise. I'm not just some kind of guy who gets build order wins every game. | ||
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iglocska
Norway589 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:24 NVRLand wrote: I have _ALWAYS_ gone for the macro game against zergs. I almost never try to end the game before 20 minutes because I've always had the thought in my head that I want to be good on macro (the reason why I have never cheesed on the ladder) and this has put me on a win rate of about 50% but a couple of days ago I thought I'd try some... not all-innish but atleast pressure in the mid game (I did a ffe -> 6 gates -> 8:30 3rd with robo) and I pulled out 9 wins in a row. The question always comes down to: What is skill? If skill is a high ladder ranking -> why doesn't everyone just cheese their way up to master? If skill is being good at the macro game -> why doesn't everyone open up really safe? I mean, I could've probably been a higher league (top platinum atm) if I would all-in in some matches but I just feel like... I want to be able to out macro my opponent in every game. This makes the improvement really slow but atleast I'm at the same level as my opponent, both macro- and micro wise. I'm not just some kind of guy who gets build order wins every game. I think this mentality is actually pretty counter-productive. I have seen so many players complain about losing in the earlier phases of the game and how they'd easily win in the late-game - but the reality is, that as long as you cannot get into the lategame without dropping dead to a timing then you're not better than your opponent. In lower leagues like platinum, every lategame macro-game is just cringe worthy when it comes to the number of mistakes each player makes, simply because controlling a 3+ base macro is beyond their skill level. Whoever is a tiny bit more comfortable with this will get an easy win. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On September 23 2012 16:30 myRZeth wrote: well for improving you should never have started all inning look at what the kespa pros stated "i always go macro to understand the game as much as quickly as possible" can you see how damn fast they improve? Yeah well they're KeSPA pros. Not only do they have immense talent and extensive prior RTS experience, they also have already developed godlike mechanics. The main argument for allinning is developing your fundamentals, because if you try to macro when you can't even 4-gate, it'll be like a paraplegic trying to ice-skate. You'll just get overwhelmed and won't really learn that much. The main argument for macro gaming is learning the timings and flow of a macro game. In general, you want to break what you're learning into bite size bits. Mechanics are infinitely more important than any strategy. Phoenix beat Korean masters players using only zergling and occasionally banelings a while ago, even against zealot/colossus deathballs. The reason for that was fundamentals. Whereas the others neglected fundamentals like macro in favor of stuff that they really didn't need yet like strategy, Phoenix just made zerglings and beat the best in the world. Channel phoenix and you improve. | ||
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ian952
Canada124 Posts
The current pvz late game is slightly zerg favored so I dont see a reason to not all-in. However, you should learn more than other builds like blink +2 all in, 3 base colossus allin... | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On September 24 2012 00:11 ian952 wrote: To perform a good sentry immortal all-in, you will need perfect force field and warping in units on time. This will improve your macro/mutitasking since you are able to macro while attacking. The current pvz late game is slightly zerg favored so I dont see a reason to not all-in. However, you should learn more than other builds like blink +2 all in, 3 base colossus allin... you don t need macro or multitasking to perform an immortal all in when you re fighting your macro has ended, you just warp some units in with your prism | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Also I can't seem to find that quote in those linked interviews anywhere. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 23 2012 17:34 Vermiiifuuge wrote: ^ quality reply, wish there were more like these. Agreed, this build is not easy for me to execute, i mess it up all the time and only win maybe 50% of my games when I do it just because my execution needs work. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 24 2012 00:17 myRZeth wrote: you don t need macro or multitasking to perform an immortal all in when you re fighting your macro has ended, you just warp some units in with your prism I bolded the part where you are in fact still macroing. Also, depending on how the attack goes, you still need to be making pylons to keep reinforcing, so theres some macro too. Agree though that you should be expanding your repertoire, especially if you are just rofl stomping everyone. If the build is strong enough though, and you execute it well enough, you can still go far on the ladders. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 24 2012 08:25 rikter wrote: I bolded the part where you are in fact still macroing. Also, depending on how the attack goes, you still need to be making pylons to keep reinforcing, so theres some macro too. Agree though that you should be expanding your repertoire, especially if you are just rofl stomping everyone. If the build is strong enough though, and you execute it well enough, you can still go far on the ladders. Agreed. I find this all-in kind of silly...I had played Zerg on ladder for like 1k games, hopped over to Protoss and was able to move out with 3 immortals, +1 attack, 8 sentries, 4gates done (3 more warping in), and a warp prism/obs on the way, at 9:00 Yet when I play ZvP, top diamond Protoss players are moving out with the same thing around 10:00-10:30, it's pretty silly. Just from the knowledge of how to scout the all-in, I know how to execute it at a level high enough to beat low masters players. On topic, it's not a free win or easy by any means. One supply block and it probably won't work, bad scouting and you might die to some all-ins, not to mention the required perfect forcefields. I believe that you'll learn a lot more and improve a lot faster if you drop a third nexus instead of the last 3 gateways, build 2 observers before immortals, then drop a council after the nexus. This is almost a BO win against Stephano-style roach/ling max (forcefields are still a must, however), and the scouting enables you to scout + react to other play (mutas, ling/bling with drops, etc). Do this build (go up to 10gate with colossus after taking third), make probes + pylons, stop at 8 sentries, and move out between when his hive finishes and when his GS finishes! That pre-broodlord timing is best with 3-4 colossi, 3-4 immortals, 8 sentries, and the rest of your supply in stalkers. I guarantee that you will win every game with this push until a low-mid masters level, it's kind of awesome :D Focus on defense, defense, defense. 4 gasses only out of Zerg? Expect a roach/ling or ling/bane attack. Et cetera. | ||
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Messi
United States212 Posts
It only works in plat and diamond, sometimes in masters if you execute perfectly. It will let you win easily, but I suggest you to practice other builds besides 7 gate all in to you to use various builds for futur | ||
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elliminist
Japan121 Posts
Cheeses are also a good way to learn the strengths of a unit composition or tech advantage. I like to see the difference between cheese and all-in in that a cheese has to open non-standard from the start, and an all-in can come from a normal standard opening. However, a player who knows only an all-in game without the standard opening mechanics will NEVER perform an all-in properly. you would end up killing them with 'stuff', but it doesn't mean you're hitting the timing right. If its the around platinum/diamond mechanics level I feel no build executed really hits the all-in timing correctly... There's a difference between knowing why you win and thinking you know why you win. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Even with plat mechanics its really not that big a deal to bang out the same units at the same time as the pros, the discrepency in play comes in how effectively the pros use their units and how effectively the pros handle harass. You actually learn how you win through your losses when you all in. In seeing people hold your attack, and what they do differently than the ones that get killed, whatever you are actually exploiting becomes clear. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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shadogi
United States194 Posts
On September 23 2012 16:27 lordsurya08 wrote: The above analysis suggests that there is both an upside and a downside, but I'm not certain about either. The question is, if I want to improve as quickly as possible, which outweighs the other? At what point should I put down Immortal/Sentry and try a different play style? I think it all comes down to what kind of player you want to be. There are a lot of players that make their living off of all ins. Col.Heart is a great example of someone this season in the GSL. The thing about all ins is that eventually, people learn to hold them and, in general, they become less and less effective. Once people learn your tricks, you either have to create more all ins or become irrelevant. Macro players, on the other hand, learn primarily how to hold off the tricks and place themselves into a winning position in the late game, so they might have a hard time when new builds are created, but they've already got the rough skill set to succeed no matter what turn the meta takes. The players that you still know the names of after 2 years are either insanely creative and have stellar micro (SK.MC) or are great macro players (Symbol, DRG, etc). So, in the end, pick your poison. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany674 Posts
you need to do some 2 base timing push, else you lose against any decent zerg. their eco if untouched>yours. | ||
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
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