EPT[D] All-ins (Immortal/Sentry) good for improving? - Page 5
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FuGGu
United States176 Posts
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hersimp
Norway40 Posts
Since you're already familiar with the Immortal / Sentry all in, you can go for a quite similar opening, but with taking a quick third instead (7-9 mins) with 3-4 gates and a robo. Then add more gates abit later. This is of course abit map dependent, but its a valid and pretty safe strategy on most maps in the ladder pool. | ||
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ThyLastPenguin
United Kingdom101 Posts
The more you enjoy it, the more you play, the more you play, the better you get. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
"Improving" means patching up every weakness you have. And the only way you will do that is if you can actually understand what you need to improve. You should find a macro style that you feel comfortable with, which can potentially mine out the map, but keep you alive or in a good position throughout the game. For example, you can always macro in PvZ by taking a 3rd base on just 1 gateway, add gates and defend for your life if you are comfortable with that style. You can macro by researching Blink and getting a handful of sentries, then take a 3rd base. Doing this will teach you what you will die to, how you can improve your build and how you can improve your control. It forces you to take a build and stretch it out as far as you can, relying only on your own skill and understanding of the game. You should try to do this in every matchup if you really want to improve. Anybody can all-in, and it doesn't help them understand the game, and therefore does not lead to them improving as a complete player. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On September 25 2012 01:22 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Running just one build and closing options for so much understanding of the game doesn't really make you better. And being better != rank. You can get a high rank by using abusive cheeses, as displayed on TL multiple times. That doesn't mean you're good at the game. i think that is an important point | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Those units don't abuse themselves. I agree its no good to be a one trick pony, and that improving means patching all weaknesses, but to just write off people as less skilled because they abuse a certain early timing or something is really ignoring the real skill these people have. Grandmaster by 6 pooling or 4 gating is hard. With just a bit of knowledge, holding these builds becomes more efficient, and you reallly need to work to win with them. It isnt lame to blast someones door down because they have no friggin units, or retarded units, or improperly placed units or they cant control their units, or they rushed tech or whatever. How are you less skillful because they don't know what to do or how to do it? The fact that you understand a build well enough both in theory and in execution means you are pretty skilled. It isnt possible to master ANY build without having some skills. | ||
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Ruin
United States271 Posts
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tuukster
Finland114 Posts
Long macro games with 3+ bases are much more demanding than 2 base all-ins, so it would be wiser to start with the easier one until you are ready to step up your game. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:58 ePAiur wrote: I'm a gm protoss and heres what I advise: Do this build untill you can execute it perfectly (same timings as pros) then switch to 4 gate immortal fast third and do the 3 base timing until you can do that perfectly. The AM server is really really bad because people think allins are immoral and therefore do not have enough practice with them. On the korean server every league is a league ahead in macro games and with allins! And they allin more. So there is no correlation between playing macro and getting better. Allins help you refine mechanics really well. The American server just needs to grow up about this whole "cheese and allins are bad derp derp" mentality. No wonder it's the worst server. This. Ive heard that the KR server is much more aggressive, but I havent played on it so I cant be sure. The stigma associated with ealry timings is the worst, and its funny that everyone talks about how great the koreans are and then ignores the fact that this is how it is over there, and maybe this has something to do with why they are so good. when people use the word cheese, in my head it translates to "I didnt scout", "I scouted but didnt read the signs properly", "I read the signs properly but my execution was poor". All of these indicate that the guy thats complaining is lacking in skill, not the guy who beat him. "How dare he not let me skip units and defense!" You are not entitled to 70+ workers! | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On September 25 2012 01:52 rikter wrote:Those units don't abuse themselves. I agree its no good to be a one trick pony, and that improving means patching all weaknesses, but to just write off people as less skilled because they abuse a certain early timing or something is really ignoring the real skill these people have. Grandmaster by 6 pooling or 4 gating is hard. With just a bit of knowledge, holding these builds becomes more efficient, and you reallly need to work to win with them. Getting to GrandMaster, or we could even say High Masters, by cheesing is not as difficult as doing it with standard/macro play. I don't think that point is very easily debated. The main point is that the cheeser barely needs to know anything about the intricacies of the game in order to get easy wins. I play people all the time in High Masters that do nothing but proxy 2gate every game, and their unit control is awful. They simply win because people don't scout. Still, apparently it's good enough for top 8 Masters. I don't mean to say that the units are abusive, but the builds certainly are. They almost always force your opponent to have to work much harder in order to defend in comparison to the relatively little amount of effort the cheesing player is expending in order to execute the build order. Think Marine/SCV all-in vs Protoss. Not only do Masters players typically not have the ability to control Stalkers perfectly, but their subpar quickness and precision of their reactions alone would kill them almost every game. For the most part, the Terran player would just need to make their buildings on time, pull units, put SCVs in the front, a-move, and control their ball of Marines back and forth as needed to kill Stalkers or get in better position. How are you less skillful because they don't know what to do or how to do it? The fact that you understand a build well enough both in theory and in execution means you are pretty skilled. It isnt possible to master ANY build without having some skills. The people that develop every part of their game are more skilled/better than players that copy a build off TL and hope their opponent screws up (which they inevitably will because it's not like Masters NA players are all that good). Any Platinum league player in NA could pick up an abusive cheese and run it into Masters. That doesn't make them a player really deserving of being associated with a Masters skill level considering they likely could not get there without cheesing and abusing everyone on ladder. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
1 base doesnt have to be mindless. | ||
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Arrogant
Canada51 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:58 ePAiur wrote: I'm a gm protoss and heres what I advise: Do this build untill you can execute it perfectly (same timings as pros) then switch to 4 gate immortal fast third and do the 3 base timing until you can do that perfectly. The AM server is really really bad because people think allins are immoral and therefore do not have enough practice with them. On the korean server every league is a league ahead in macro games and with allins! And they allin more. So there is no correlation between playing macro and getting better. Allins help you refine mechanics really well. The American server just needs to grow up about this whole "cheese and allins are bad derp derp" mentality. No wonder it's the worst server. I agree with above. If my opponent tries to go for the macro advantage I do my best to punish and end the game early. If he looks to be doing a one base play then I expand and hold the all in. The goal of the game should be to win. You do this by countering your opponents strategy. Edit:Spelling | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
Whether you play this game for fun, to improve, or simply to win, all-inning every game is going to give you short-term rewards but is a losing strategy in the long term. Explore other builds, develop your own strategies, learn the matchup in and out through macro play, and develop your mechanics and decision making skills during the process. You will have more fun, you will improve faster, and you will win more after you've put the work in. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On September 25 2012 04:53 Arrogant wrote: I agree with above. If my opponent tries to go for the macro advantage I do my best to punish and end the game early. If he looks to be doing a one base play then I expand and hold the all in. The goal of the game should be to win. You do this by countering your opponents strategy. Edit:Spelling Not sure if you read the OP, but he said he is doing the same all in every single game. There is no "this is what i see so I am going to punish it". It's just the same build over and over. You are telling me that is going to develop a player's skills faster than macro play? | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:23 tskarzyn wrote: Not sure if you read the OP, but he said he is doing the same all in every single game. There is no "this is what i see so I am going to punish it". It's just the same build over and over. You are telling me that is going to develop a player's skills faster than macro play? Itll develop them faster to a point, and that point can be very high depending on the builds strength relative to the metagame and the skill with which it is executed. Maybe what that guy has "seen" has been that the last 50 games hes played Z is always doing X, and so he does what it takes to win, even if its boring. To be the best though, you need to add more builds...but if you do it on a solid foundation of one and two base play its easier to both add them and execute them. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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Arrogant
Canada51 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:23 tskarzyn wrote: Not sure if you read the OP, but he said he is doing the same all in every single game. There is no "this is what i see so I am going to punish it". It's just the same build over and over. You are telling me that is going to develop a player's skills faster than macro play? Yes because when the build doesn't work he will be able to watch the replay's and start to figure out how his opponent held. He will then figure out when NOT to do the build and will be forced to come up with a build to use in those situations. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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Arrogant
Canada51 Posts
On September 25 2012 06:18 tskarzyn wrote: Just curious, but what makes you think he is watching replays? And what makes you think that he is changing the build in certain situations if it doesn't work? OP is in platinum so clearly there is a deficiency in many areas. Lol...alright I guess I assumed to much. Yes if the OP does not watch a single replay nor learn from the times that the all in does not function....then he is better off just doing macro games. | ||
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rshswe
Sweden40 Posts
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