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On September 24 2012 11:10 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:
funny how almost everybody advises against all-ining
you need to do some 2 base timing push, else you lose against any decent zerg. their eco if untouched>yours.
What no...
The only 2 base aggression I ever do is 1gate pressure (just make a zealot and 2 stalkers after gateway finishes), to force 10-16 lings at 7:00. It hurts their economy while being risk-free, and enables me to scout and set up my third base + 5gate robo tech safely. From there you scout and react and play a normal macro game.
It's a myth that Zerg is OP if you don't hit some huge economic timing. Terrans do fine in TvZ, even if their hellion/banshee does little to no damage. It's the same for PvZ. All zerg units are cost-inefficient, except broodlords. And there's always a pre-broodlord timing that you can hit in all XvZ matchups.
Basically, don't 2 base all-in. 4gate +1 pressure is OK but will stop working at a certain level. Just play macro and learn lategame!
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On September 23 2012 21:30 Zrana wrote:
These threads crop up every so often. Allow me to translate the real meaning:
"I all-in every game but feel like it's just cheap wins and i should play macro. However I don't wanna lose so help me justify all-inning as a valid way to play".
I don't know of anyone who dropped leagues when they stopped all inning. Most people get to plat or diamond, decide to start playing macro, then stay there because all-inning takes just as much skill as any macro game. Look at someone like heart. If you can play an all-in style and win in the GSL, I'm reasonably certain there's a skill to it...
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On September 24 2012 09:15 Messi wrote:
Obviously not. It's all in, and there are many builds besides 7 gates all in.
It only works in plat and diamond, sometimes in masters if you execute perfectly.
It will let you win easily, but I suggest you to practice other builds besides 7 gate all in to you to use various builds for futur
Lol hence why everyone complains when someone pulls it out and wins in the GSL with it (I'm assuming you're referring to the OP's 7gate sentry immo all in)? Builds never stop working, even if some become less effective. Especially if you combine them with scouting...
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At some point you will stop winning with all ins. At that point, you will learn mechanics. All ins are pure macro. If you are playing against players 'that could beat you up in a straight game' you will be testing your macro against theres if you all in them
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It depends on what your strengths and weaknesses are as a player. Using all-ins on the ladder can help you:
-Learn to macro while microing
-Execute a detailed build order perfectly
-Perfect the specific kind of micro in the all-in
All-ins usually won't teach you:
-To defend a greedy expansion with minimal units
-To adjust your gameplan on the fly to respond to scouting information
-Late-game macro and army control
So, you should probably assess your strengths and weaknesses as a player, then choose a build to improve. I would also point out that "getting better at Starcraft" is a somewhat empty goal. If your goal is a specific league, then a style that incorporates a lot of all-ins will get your there faster, because NA players are much stronger at macro than they are at defending. If your goal is enjoying the game, your build will reflect personal preference more than anything. For example, if there's a matchup you hate (say, for example, TvP...), there's nothing wrong with playing a strong all-in to keep a decent record, then developing your skill in the other matchups.
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Like the person above me said, I do allins in 2 matchups while i focus macro play in the 3rd matchup.
Like 3 hatch bane bust vs protoss, bane bust or roach bling allin vs T, then super safe macro style zvz.
This way you can do more thinking in your current macro matchup and somewhat ignore the other 2 matchups.
But for your allins, you better do them perfectly, you do the same build every game afterall...
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On September 24 2012 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Like the person above me said, I do allins in 2 matchups while i focus macro play in the 3rd matchup.
Like 3 hatch bane bust vs protoss, bane bust or roach bling allin vs T, then super safe macro style zvz.
This way you can do more thinking in your current macro matchup and somewhat ignore the other 2 matchups.
But for your allins, you better do them perfectly, you do the same build every game afterall...
very strange advices in this thread lol
a big thing you want to consider is the 'surprise' element of your builds. that's the only difference between an allin and further macro. you cannot rely purely on surprise play every game on the highest levels of play(note that this is different to having different variation and paths you can take).
Compare these:
A scouted immortal-sentry is easier to hold than a non scouted immortal-sentry all-in.
A 9 minute third with robo is often responded with an 11:30 roach ling attack, and whether zerg knows this for sure or not there is a less degree of chance in this attack, as this is considered standard play.
However, i do feel it is possible to do this build for a very long time given its strength. If you're comfortable with it, sure you can stick with it.
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On September 24 2012 11:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 21:30 Zrana wrote:
These threads crop up every so often. Allow me to translate the real meaning:
"I all-in every game but feel like it's just cheap wins and i should play macro. However I don't wanna lose so help me justify all-inning as a valid way to play". I don't know of anyone who dropped leagues when they stopped all inning. Most people get to plat or diamond, decide to start playing macro, then stay there because all-inning takes just as much skill as any macro game. Look at someone like heart. If you can play an all-in style and win in the GSL, I'm reasonably certain there's a skill to it...
No. They all in in GSL as an element of surprise. Unlike OP, they dont do it to improve their skill
Doing just all in alone wont teach you anything but 1/2 base macro which isnt very helpful if you play standard macro game. In fact, there are a couple of guides which people created to get to High Master/GM by pure all in alone. However, all of the author admitted they have shitty macro and micro when they dont all in
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microing and macroing when you have 2 bases and trying that to perform the same level of micro and macro consistently when you have 5-6 bases instead is completely different. there are so many different areas to attack/defend and manage when you have that many bases. by performing the same 2 base allin, you gain the mechanics to execute and micro/macro off well off 2 bases. but beyond that. you will struggle as your bases begin to pile on.
I managed to claw my way into gm on NA with a variety of all-ins but i found that in a long drawn out macro game (beyond 3 bases), my win rate drops drastically. so basically if you play alot of games managing 2-3 bases. you will get better at managing 2-3 bases. if you play lots of games on 5-6 bases. like wise, your ability to mange 5-6 bases will improve. which i feel is the main reason why people advocate the importance of being able to play a macro game. basically if you can macro on 5 bases close to flawlessly, what makes you think you wouldnt be able to manage 2 bases. =)
just my 2 cents worth. =D
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There is no inherent morality regarding any strategy with starcraft 2. As for improving, the fact is no one really knows the best way to improve really quickly. Alot of people assume they know because they are high level but this isn't the case. My advice? Have fun! If you prefer to all in then you will get better at that and improve along those lines. If you go for macro game you will improve along those lines.
Fact of the matter is starcraft 2 doens't just have one way to play that is best. The game is about decision making, reading the game and choosing the best course of action depending on the flow of the game. What you find is that the TOP players never consrtict their play to "I am macro player" or "I am a micro player" they know and understand that to be the best you need to be able to play all styles effectively.
So go play whatever style you think is best and stick with it. Dont let anyone tell you it is wrong untill you understand and know why for yourself. Have fun and goodluck!
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wow people are macro gods on this forum apparently, so evreone here is master since they macro so hard every game? ehm no. Best way to improve is to allin imo. If you can execute a perfect allin you are allready top master level. Its really hard and i doubt the op can do perfect immortal allin even if he can do it decently. When i started playing i got to master doing allins and now i only do macro games but allin helped me so incredibly much to understand the game and improved my multitasking and 2 base management needed for me to then go over to macro play.
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It is best to just keep doing the same build over and over. Then once you get to player that you loss to, change the build to win, or learn a new one. The key concept here is that it takes people a long long time to learn the in's and out's of a build. What happens if they hit befor I have X, and I am delayed? You need to be able to answer random questions about the build, and know at every second what you want to be doing. Day[9] has some great videos on this, you should look him up. Good Hunting <3
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Yes, it will help you improve. However it helps you improve in a extremely narrow set of skills. Granted, you will improve faster and beat better players using this build as you perfect it, but only because you are perfecting a much smaller aspect of the matchup as a whole.
I strongly urge you to practice nothing but heavy macro play untill you have a strong understanding of each matchup in all segments of the game.
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On September 24 2012 09:15 Messi wrote:
Obviously not. It's all in, and there are many builds besides 7 gates all in.
It only works in plat and diamond, sometimes in masters if you execute perfectly.
It will let you win easily, but I suggest you to practice other builds besides 7 gate all in to you to use various builds for futur
I'd go as far as saying this is the best all in in the entire game. Works on every level and is a ton easier to execute than it is to defend.
If you truly wanna get better OP, you should take that third base of the immortal sentry-mix you know so well already.
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Strong all ins are part of the arsenal of any good player.
Repeating them teaches you nothing about the game except how a prepared player will react.
When you're already good at the all-in doing therefore does nothing to improve your skill and does inflate your elo.
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On September 24 2012 11:22 PlacidPanda wrote:
Allins help you on micro, macro games help you on macro. Which facet you need to improve on should decide which one you employ.
You have to macro in an all-in, you are typically still producing units to reinforce, and those rally points need to be managed, the reinforcing waves corralled and added in etc.
The big thing about the all-in s that it works on all elements of your game...theres still decisions to be made, targets to prioritize, point of attack. Plus you learn how to actually kill. Macroing up blindly to 200-200 before moving out doesn't teach this. You cant kill someone by just producing units, you actually have to use them. And if you can't properly control and reinforce a small army, what makes you think it somehow becomes easier to win with a bigger one?
At some point you need to learn 3 base play, but I strongly disagree that this is the fastest way to improve, especially early on.
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A buddy of mine went from Silver to Masters in about two months. The way he did it was, 1 base play, once he could macro there, he did 2 base plays, now that he's in masters he is focusing more on +3 base play. The way he described it was: If you can't macro and spend your resources on 2 bases, there is no points trying to do 3 base Macro games just yet. Take it one step at a time and you should only learn all ins when you're Top Master/GM to get some free points.
That's my two cents, other than that watch your replays carefully, always compare your army value to your opponents in the big battles, see why you won/lost (positioning, bad micro, etc..)
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All-ins are a good way to gradually work on mechanics because you get immediate feedback (win or lose). When you try to take a macro game to 4 bases, there are hundreds of decision points for both players that will influence the outcome, and the feedback you get from your games will be diluted. As you get better you move up a base and continue doing timing attacks, and you will probably have better 3 base play than the guy who started out doing 3 base every game.
As long as the all-in requires some level of precision and macro, I think it is a good learning tool. 6 pool, cannon rush, proxy gate and 3 rax scv trains don't count.
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Anyone who watched Flash from BW might remember that he started out just cheesing, but doing it insanely good, and then eventually switched over to macro play.
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On September 24 2012 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Like the person above me said, I do allins in 2 matchups while i focus macro play in the 3rd matchup.
Like 3 hatch bane bust vs protoss, bane bust or roach bling allin vs T, then super safe macro style zvz.
This way you can do more thinking in your current macro matchup and somewhat ignore the other 2 matchups.
But for your allins, you better do them perfectly, you do the same build every game afterall...
I tend to do the opposite meaning I all in 1 match up and play standard in the other two. I've done this since day 1 and am now in masters. As long as you keep rotating which match up you all in you'll become pretty rounded overall. Obviously, there are probably better schedules but I find a somewhat brainless 3rd match up where I only have to focus on timings and micro gives me a chance to focus on the little things that I don't get to focus on as much in a macro game.
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EPT
