Newbie Mini Mafia XXVI
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
Regarding policy lynching: On September 02 2012 12:31 thrawn2112 wrote: Emphasis mine, double emphasis on the underlined part. I don't want a no-lynch. Even if a townie gets lynched we still gain information from their flip. If a player flips green then the next step is to look at who all played parts in getting them lynched. And besides that if we don't have a lynch goal for D1 I think there will be a lot less conversation than normal. As far as it being impossible to have a good lynch candidate, that's where lurker policy comes in. Regardless of if we lynch a lurker or not, coming out and deciding to lynch a lurker in the first 12 hours is going to stifle discussion and allow the mafia to know exactly what they need to do to not die (just be less lurky than someone else). In theory this works to get everyone discussing but if there is even one town who isn't posting often it gives the mafia a free pass D1. On September 02 2012 12:29 kushm4sta wrote: Also guys remember school starts soon if it hasn't already started. Sept 4th for me. This is going to make it kind of hard to distinguish malicious lurkers because people will have a good excuse. Low post count doesn't mean someone isn't town. Check my filter in NMMXXIV. Hopefully I'll be able to be more active here but why someone has a low post count isn't as important as what they say in their few posts. Regarding lists: This might be just me, but I don't want lists posted throughout the game. It's an easy wall for scum to hide behind without explaining why they think what they do and without forcing them to ever commit. Will have individual questions for people in a bit. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
@Sonic Death Monkey It wasn't an alibi. It was a direct example of a low post count not being immediately a scumtell. I should have been more clear about it though. A low post count doesn't indicate scum or innocence. It should warrant heavy scrutiny to determine the motives behind their posts. Especially if it comes down to a debate between lurkers. Your post is exactly what I'm taking about with lists. If I was a scum I wouldn't put myself in a position to be lynched by posting once or twice than bouncing for a day when you guys make it so easy to hide without committing to anything. All I'd have to do is post a list of everyone and sheep on townish people and say well he hasn't posted a lot so I'm not sure but W,X,Y,Z are scummy for not posting very often and I'd be covered through a D1 lynch without having to explain anything. That said Drazak's list has one very interesting point. On September 03 2012 16:45 drazak wrote: [*]Kville Not active, at all. He seems very active in NMIII or whatever the normal mini mafia he's in right now is. Willing to bet he's scum or useless for town. He has my vote at the minute. . This needs to be explained by Kville. There is no excuse for not posting while on TL considering there was a reminder before the game started. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
are we allowed to reference people's activity on TL outside of the game(it wasn't allowed in XXIV is why I'm asking.)? | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 02 2012 22:57 Kville wrote: Im not lurking! I just woke up! First, why has no one called KVille out on the fact that all he's done is avoided a modkill two days ago and posted zip since then? At the very least step up and say that if he doesn't step up his game he's going to die D2 or something in case he really has been busy. Golbat lived til D4 like this last game as a scum doing the exact same thing. He's managed to drop 6 posts in his other game of mafia but he can't spend 5 minutes here? @Sonic Death Monkey So your case against me consists of determining I have "pseudo-helpful posts." What part of my post was "pseudo-helpful"? The fact that if I point out things that don't necessarily mean scumtells because I don't want to see the town go down the same road as it did in XXIV? Fair enough it hasn't been the most helpful but your entire case on lynching me is off of a lack of contribution. Like others are saying why am I a better lynch than Cubu? He's said he's suspicious of Drazak for one post (which could easily be a misunderstanding of the rules) and is asking people to kill off Kville instead of him because he isn't there. Not providing reads to show why he'll be helpful day2, he just should live because there is someone afk. You bring up how a lurking scum tends to be more rational without any explanation as to why you say that (except to further your own case) and justify not lynching Cubu. Spazzes have been scum before in newbie games (DrWiggl3s, YourHarry) and the only reason they've lived was due to giving them the benefit of the doubt for days (Got Vig Thrawn lynched instead of Scum YH in XXIV). You also say The low level of Cubu's contributions makes him a better lynch candidate even though I think Drazark may be a more likely scum. If you think Drazark is more scummy why would you ever consider Cubu over him? It's not like a flip on Cubu confirms anyone else's alignment this early in the game. Explain.(As a side note I've just contributed as much as Cubu in terms of scumreads, but you're missing my point from earlier still. It isn't how often you contribute its the intent and what you contribute.) Part 2 Incoming. I just wanted to address the case against me first to give you guys times to look it over. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
By the same token I'd support a lynch on Kville if we can consolidate enough votes on him. There is at least one person who said they probably won't be back before lynch who is on Cubu and we can't trust Kville's vote on himself. Because of that I have to go with Cubu but I'm open to switching if there is support. ##Vote Cubu | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 04 2012 05:35 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: This has been addressed, read the last couple of pages. The case is based on you contributing a few times without any valuable reads or questions. Your contributions have been about: 1) Lynching lurkers. 2) Low post counts not necessarily being scummy. 3) List-making. You've only covered the most generic questions possible and without helping out on reads and who to actually lynch. You've been in the thread but you're the definition of laying low. Put yourself in my shoes, reading your own posts, why wouldn't my read be that you're scummy? As for XXIV, I haven't followed TL maffia threads. You'll have to enlighten me as to why your posts in this thread was meant to avoid whatever happened in that thread. It's based on experience and what I believe to be fairly sound logic. The first is obviously my personal observations of games, admittedly limited to 4-5 games, mostly newbie. The second is covered in the quote in my last post. The inexperienced town newbie knows he's townie and he usually underestimates the difficulty of getting this information across (it's really hard). This leads him to 1) underestimate the risk of getting into a sticky situation and 2) overestimates his chances of getting out of those situations. The reverse is true for an inexperienced scum. I'm obviously working with probabilities here, the fact that there are exceptions doesn't mean the analysis is invalid. Because if we keep Cubu around I'm worried he'll just keep his nonsensical posts coming. Since Drazark is more active and tries to contribute in an intelligent way, keeping him there's a good chance we can get a better read later (in either direction). There's a decent risk Cubu will remain a black-box. I don't think so. What was the intent of your contributions? Like I said, it seems like your posts are trying to look like contributing without actually adding much value at all. The case against you isn't rock solid, but as I've just explained, it's the wagon I like best. You've mostly stayed out of the thread for ~40 hours and now show up for EOD, why haven't posted anything of value earlier? You've put yourself in a shitty situation because not everyone will be around for EOD (as a Euro I need to go to sleep now). I still like your wagon better than Cubu's so I'm leaving my vote on. If you're really townie I hope you survive and give me a chance to change my mind d2. Sorry what's EOD? I haven't heard that expression before. Regarding XXIV: In XXIV we went from lynching a lurker D1 to lynching our most vocal town. Day 2 we lynched a claimed Vig Thrawn over a scum YourHarry. This happened because instead of focusing on motives and what was said everyone except 3 of us just assumed YH was so bad he had to be good. The intent of that post is showing you how you've spent all of day 1 tunneling me off of one post instead of checking other people. I'm not saying you're wrong for questioning me but you're going to be sorely disappointed if I get bandwagoned, flip town and you're the only person who has interacted with me at all. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 04 2012 06:12 Kreb wrote: Stutters You started off by ignoring this: Then you follow it up by posting this: So, we got this part 2 coming anytime soon? Or are you, for the second time, saying you will do something and then just ignore it? Sorry I didn't see your post about that. Regardless I fell asleep as it was like 4am my time when I posted that. Other people have since covered what I would have questioned them about. Part 2 was my post on Cubu and Kville. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
Sorry about the slow start d1 guys. Hopefully I can prove my town worth today. Kville is interesting. His first helpful post comes 10 hours after the end of Normal Mini III where he was mislynched for nearly identical play to his start in this game. Assuming he keeps up this improved style of posting this means one of two things: 1) He realized that his playstyle previously loses games and has decided to make a more serious effort 2) He realized after how bad he'd played it would provide a perfect cover for scummy play in this game. There is some evidence for the latter. In III he was essentially a guaranteed lynch from the start of the last day onward. This would mean that he should have realized his bad play was hurting the town during Day 1, not partway into Day 2. His filter in Mini III also has fairly steady activity throughout each day with occasional cases Of course the simplest and most likely explanation is 1) and he simply realized we'd lose like this. So for Kville: Why did you have such a sudden change in posting style? Why should we believe you've turned a new leaf? Even when you were ignoring this game for the other game you were posting mostly spam but still working in cases. Here you've been lurking, even since the end of Mini III. Also why did you "vote" for imcasey at night? I'm assuming it was a joke but if that's the case of your 2 posts in the night period why would you waste one of them on a joke and then come in and defend the guy the next day? | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 04:16 kushm4sta wrote: Thank you for that meta read on kville, Stutters! Fitting his meta doesn't make him automatically town, but I think it does remove suspicion for that suspicious behavior. I think it makes kville a null read. And I think he is fitting his meta. Basically this guy believe that posting and making reads on d1 is useless, and he's bitter about being lynched for believing that. Please note that this is not me saying he's unknown. This is me wanting answers to those questions in order to have a more solid read on him. If he doesn't answer or is only popping in the thread once a day still I will assume he's scum because he's shown that he isn't incompetent at this. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 17:02 KillingTime wrote: Ok, having re-read through a bunch of filters today I think we should lynch Stutters695 - Yes his posting/lurking has been/is reason enough to lynch him. But, reading back through filters there has been way to much redirection of discussion away from him as a good lynch - particularly from kush. First : Kush, who on Day 1 was very eager to see Cubu lynched, and made numerous posts deflecting attention away from stutters equally terrible posting (and he convinced town to mislynch - not necessarily his fault ofc, but...). Here, just after stutters has made his first substantive (no real scumhunting though, just pointless arguing) post, Krush soon starts to push his lynch wagon on other targets: Well, clearly alot of people did not feel that way, but Kush was very good at pushing (Cubu over other targets). Here he redirects the suspicion of our confirmed town player with a poor defence (Stutters posts d1 were NOT helpful, in depth & coherent - they essentially amounted to "look guys I am somewhat active and these guys are not - lynch them instead") Equally on Day 2 Kush is keen to portray stutters as basically a null read and focus discussion elsewhere. But then, again straight after that he is again trying to establish a consensus on a lynch that does not include stutters Xatalos has done a similar thing (to a lesser extent) - throughout much of the game redirecting suspicion away from stutters (though it may be less intentional in his cas) Here he is: but then, when I (and jacob? - not sure, I am not reading jacobs shitstorm of a filter again to find out) were confused why he thought this he says But in that post he is at least happy to discuss Stutters as a lynch. Now, this does not mean that both Kush & Xatalos are mafia if stutters flips - but that is WAY too much subtle redirecting of a target for me. Stutters is as scummy as anyone at this point, if he flips we will have some strong targets for d3. If we lynch him and he is not mafia, town is in a bad spot - but we are in a bad spot regardless of who we lynch if they flip and are not mafia (kreb has convinced me of this with his case against kville that there is no point not going for lurkers.). I think kville is not a terrible lynch. But Stutters is better and more scummy, and throws alot of suspicions on others who seem to have been redirecting a/the serious Stutters wagon so far... This case is so shortsighted and full of holes. First please explain how day 1 was me just saying "look guys I am somewhat active and these guys are not - lynch them instead" (bolded part is Killing Time's). I explained my reasoning in voting Cubu, why I was also in favor of a Kville lynch (still am since he hasn't responded yet again) and provided insight and questions to Kville that will help to determine his alignment (assuming he comes back). The rest of your post is all about how Kush and Xatalos thinking I'm not the worst lynch D1 somehow means if I'm scum there is a really good chance they're scum. First I'd like to direct you to Marv's guidance after XXIV Associative cases - don't bloody do them until someone has flipped. They're bad. Following that notion: What happens when I flip town? All you've done is gotten a townie lynched and your associative case is worthless. You've put town at 5/3 going into D3 and provided absolutely nothing useful from my lynch except the same type of info that you'd get from seeing how people react to any lynch. Even if I were scum (I'm not), all your case does is lynch a scum through poor reasoning. It doesn't in any way implicate them. Kush has only a couple of posts that relate to me at all. One that was more challenging someone else pushing me for lurking over Kville (Kville has obviously been lurking harder than I have, not to mention the quality of posts). His other major post relating to me and not being lynched is his saying D2 he'd prefer someone else because of my meta read on Kville. If you don't buy that you should be questioning him, not pushing a lynch on someone because I didn't want to get lynched D1 when I know I'm town and Cubu and Kville seemed sketchy to me. This is what really got me though On September 06 2012 17:02 KillingTime wrote: I think kville is not a terrible lynch. But Stutters is better and more scummy, and throws alot of suspicions on others who seem to have been redirecting a/the serious Stutters wagon so far... Please explain what part of my play has been more scummy than someone who has been trolling the thread and not contributed anything? ##FoS Killing Time I need to go through his filter but this isn't the first time he hasn't taken a stance on issues while posting "reads" that don't actually commit longterm. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
He's appeared pretty active all game and trying to contribute. However when I look closer at the posts I don't see the same feeling I get from an overview of them. + Show Spoiler + On September 02 2012 23:09 KillingTime wrote: When we call for an “active” thread - I think what we mean is players making logical cases and then responding to them. Here are my current reads so far. I would consider them weak ( esp as we have players who have hardly/not posted yet), but if they are not addressed in later play then I will be concerned - : Scummy: SonicDeathMonkey: I appreciate your efforts to keep the thread ordered and moving along. But, that is a nice null read at best. Your posting reads too much like scum trying to push others along without much substantive play in the hope that it will create a nice wagon to jump on or an outspoken townie you can target. You must stop trying to play threadcop and post some original reads with better reasoning. JacobStrangelove: Almost every post in your filter thus far is wishy washy and lacking in any content - your conclusion on lynching lurkers? It comes down to instinct. On nolynch day one: You disagree(only acceptable response to that dumb question) - but do “know what you mean”. On my first post? “Maybe it was pointless.. but on the flip side”. You have managed to be active without any content on even the most innocuous of debates - scummy until you get more involved with the thread. WeeTee - I agree with thrawn that only a fluffy first post, is now hard to justify now that there has been some discussion. Needs to follow up with a better second post. Weetee can stand in for anyone else who has not posted as well, at this point we have enough of a thread that just a fluff post is not a good entrance. Towny: thrawn Xatalos Both have posted good content, logically reasoned. Unsure: Kushm4sta’s posting so far confuses me. I need to think about them more/see what else he posts before I develop any kind of read. Fluff: - I have never watched the TV show the flavour for this game is based on - so please don’t make any jokes and expect me to understand them. His second post in the game is his best one (Calls out lurkers, poses questions to Jacob and Sonic). When Jacob didn't answer in a satisfactory way he called him out for it and got Jacob to answer. I'm assuming he felt Jacob's reads were sufficient at that point since he doesn't bring it up again. With Sonic Death Monkey he calls him out and once Sonic answers he immediately drops any suspicions. These were his only reads and he dropped them after short responses from the people. The rest of this post was simplying saying lurking is scummy and these guys I feel are town off of their few posts. + Show Spoiler + On September 03 2012 16:21 KillingTime wrote: Good morning all - ATM the player who I am most suspicious of is the one who has attempted to make a contribution to the thread but did so with a post that gave us no opinions or information that we didn't already have. I want to see if he is capable of at least trying to make posts that are interesting/valuable or if he is scum and just trying to skirt around beeing seen as a "lurker". I don't want the to be any trains started without one of them being Him because his style suggests so far that he might just come back and jump on one at the back. ##Vote WeeTee On September 03 2012 23:57 KillingTime wrote: I kind of feel that a kville lynch would be similar to a kush lynch. We seem to agree that for a mafia to go out and make the d1 posts that kush did would be very gambley/spaz mafia play. Well, the same thing surely applies to Kville - I don't like the fact he is lurking like a submarine - but at this point, given how every active player has repeatedly stressed that they want town to be posting - the total refusal of kville to do that kind of makes me think there are better lynch targets (atleast for d1, d2 is a different story and kville is certainly going to need a good explanation and good d2 play if he does survive). On a percentage basis I think it is more likely that cuba or weetee or stutters (who never asked those "questions" he was promising) or drazak are scum who have realised their mistake and are trying to cover for it - rather than kville who is being such a blatant lurk. Weetee says that "In my opinion my previous post is succinct of my town reads and its what I wanted to say which should be valued by everyone as a whole" My point was that I did not think your town reads added much to the thread, partly because I am very sceptical of "meta" reads at this point given that we all have 3 or less games. I could persuaded to change my vote off you given that others have not agreed with me, but to do so I do need to hear from you not about who you think is town - but who you think is scum! On September 04 2012 05:32 KillingTime wrote: Weetee are you around? I made a request earlier for you to do some scumhunting and I would really like to see some before the deadline/I comment more... I am ignoring Kville for the moment... I think the quality of his posts is self evident, but he is just a distraction atm. On September 04 2012 06:31 KillingTime wrote: I assume EOD is "evening of deadline"? Yawn - Ok... I am going to ignore Kville for the moment because his posting is useless. At this point I am happy to get on Kush's Cubu wagon. He has made a cogent case for why Cubu is a decent lynch and has offered up a plausible reason (meta) why he prefers him to Weetee. I have said already that I am sceptical of the value of meta in a newbie game, but looking back at the thread I can't honestly say I have a better case on Weetee than Kush does on Cubu and all day 1 reads are fairly weak by necessity. Weetee still remains in my mind though and I certainly will want to examine him again D2. He has ignored/not seen/not yet answered my request, but I assume he will see it when he comes to vote soonish assuming he does not want to get modkilled. As I will be asleep for the lynch - gl town. Again he calls out a lurker and votes WeeTee. No real analysis, just "hey you haven't posted." Finally to end D1 he sheeps onto Kush's case on Cubu [More on this later] (Posts in spoilers). Notice how up until this point he hasn't comitted to a single lynch except wanting to lynch WeeTee for lurking? Despite all of his posting throughout Day 1, he really only managed to get a couple sentences out of Jacob and Sonic and bring up a lurker constantly (any scum could just as easily do that as a town, null read). Day 2 consists of more of the same. No reads or cases until this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 17:57 KillingTime wrote: @Kreb: I would consider kush & sonic (who i suspect d1 but for weak reasons and who has played well since then) to be the most town players at the moment, with Kreb & drazak someway behind them. They are all active and seem to be trying to help town. But many of them seem to be abit at loggerheads so I want to go through filters this afternoon and see whether I still agree with these reads. I agree my post last night was broad/reluctant. That is because I broadly agree about kville, but really hope we can do better because even if kville is mafia he is the weakest member of the mafia as well in terms of finding the whole mafia team. In terms of those I am suspicious of at the moment: Weetee/imcasey - No change since my last post when I said they were null for the moment (perhaps jacob did not read that post?) and that the need for replacement might have explained what I found scummy about them, but that I would be watching closely. I am not sure how this can be seen as “bandwagoning with xtalos” as Jacob has suggested. If you look at Xatalos’s vote he voted for Cubu early, when I was still voting for wetee.. which hardly seems like bandwagon activity to me. Jacob - I am trying hard to be objective about you and not fall into an OMGUS trap just because you are pushing me. But, I really dislike your play-style, posts like this one: seem to be designed just to confuse townies while saying almost nothing of value. At this point in the game town has very little information, so we can dream up any number of scenarios to second guess the mafia actions, I don’t think that kind of theorycrafting will help us catch scum. Your current argument seems to be that Xatalos & I are/were attempting to bus weetee/imcasey because I was more suspicious of him (unknown alignment) over cubu (confirmed town) on d1. I find this argument hard to understand and it seems more driven by your suspicions/attempts to smear me. Xatalos - I don't know what to make of the fact that jacob is pushing him alongside me. But, I would like him to explain why he thinks that Stutters695 is a much weaker case than imcasey, given that the need to be replaced seems to count in Weetees/imcaseys favour but not in his on d1 and there has been little from either of them on d2. Kville/Stutters - yep these two guys exist, not much more you can say about either unless stutters decides to be helpful (I have no hope with kville) Again more non-committal thoughts. He still hasn't tried to make a case on anyone until his case on me. Now the issues with the case on me that tie into his posting habits in general. Up until the case on me he hasn't posted a valid train of thoughts as to why someone is scum. It has all been one liners and individual quotes which he doesn't even pressure after asking. He says earlier in his filter "but looking back at the thread I can't honestly say I have a better case on Weetee than Kush does on Cubu and all day 1 reads are fairly weak by necessity." He claims Kush's case on Cubu was better than his on WeeTee yet now he is trying to pin Kush as scum proxied through me for pushing a case on Cubu instead of me. If he is so suspicious of me he should make a case on me not "well Stutters hasn't been active so he's better than the other lurkers because if he's scum then these people might be scum." That is the exact same thing he is accusing Kush of doing. Once again he has appeared active without actually producing anything but a completely WIFOM case that will fall apart once I flip town and he'll just say "oh I guess I was wrong but I really wasn't 100% sure and it made sense so it's not my fault." My question to Killing Time is who would your #1 scum read outside of me be and most importantly WHY. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 18:56 Kreb wrote: To Stutters You did explain your reasoning of Cubu. And that was a very easy target to jump on, and its quite clear that both mafia and townies jumped on the wagon once it got rolling. So that is a 100% null-read. During D2, you have provided two posts worth mentioning: 1st) Discussing the meta of Kville. Once again, this is the most likely target jump on given his behaviour. Could obviously be geniune suspicion, but you have to agree that should you be mafia, jumping on those two targets is a very easy thing to do. 2) Defense against KillingTime's accusation. While also adding a FoS back on him. What you HAVE NOT done: - Responded in any way to the accusations on you by thrawn back on D1 and N1. Here, let me refresh your memory: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 21:44 thrawn2112 wrote: I'm not exactly sure what you want me to chime in on but I'll talk about scumhunting priorities that you and stutters seem to be arguing about. In XXIV, there was a massive shit-flinging fight between shady and I. There were people who thought shady was being completely illogical, and there were people who though I was being completely illogical. The vote was closely split between shady and I and shady ended up getting lynched. But the people who voted for either of us voted on the premise that illogical posting = scum. There weren't any good scum-motive explanations for either shady or my actions and the votes were completely based on "well this guy says dumb stuff." Then D2 I got lynched and flipped vigilante, and once again nobody was voting based off scum-motive suspicions. The case against me was that my vig claim was unbelievable, and there was an association case against me because another player and I had made extremely similar posts at the exact same time which made people think that we were in conversation with each other as scum. Meanwhile there was a player who had been saying extremely illogical stuff, but most people gave him a town read because they thought there'd be no way that a scum would be so illogical. His actual actions/votes were so extremely scummy throughout the whole game. However, people ignored that because they were spending too much time trying to make reads based on the quality of his posts, when instead they should have been looking at his motives behind the posts. The point is motives>quality of posts in terms of importance to making reads. That was the reason I favored lynching stutters over cubu. They both were heavy lurkers without much actual contribution in the few posts they had made. The people who voted for cubu did it because the quality (reasoning, writing style, and relevance to the thread) of stutter's posts was much higher than cubu's. So in their eyes, having low quality posts (see my earlier definition of quality) makes you look scummy. I didn't think that was a good assumption to make, and I preferred voting stutters because stutters had done less scumhunting than cubu. At the time of deciding between the two, the only scumhunting stutters had done was the very last paragraph of this post. Cubu of course hadn't done as much scumhunting as most poeple, but his contributions towards finding scum were more than what stutters gave. It was a vote based on motives instead of quality... somebody who doesn't scumhunt (ask questions, state what you find scummy, accuse people with FOS and such) is not a town player. - Shared any townreads throughout the whole game. - Shared any scumreads except for right now against KillingTime. - Explained your (relatively) low activity. - Scumhunted. Thats stuff you have NOT done. To me, you're trying to create a Stutters vs KillingTime situation similar to Kush vs Drazak in attempt to create confusion. You. Are. Still. Not. Contributing. Though. Show us some reads and do it well. Actually, I'd argue this might be a good time for you to create a list (yay, list discussion!) with your complete reads on everyone. As for my opinion of Stutters. He is 2nd on my vote list, well ahead of everyone except Kville. Those two stand out big time to me. Townreads are worthless. I'd rather suspect everyone who isn't confirmed rather than risk having a "town feel" on someone and completely overlook a scumslip because they're townie to me. It also gives the scum a grasp on where they sit in relation to everyone else. I work 30-40 hours a week and am a full time student in my Junior year. Trying to explain why I'm not here isn't really relevant when if you believe that is determined by if you believe I'm town or not. There really isn't much to respond to on Thrawn's case. He felt I was more scummy than Cubu, obviously I know I'm not. I'm giving you my best reads right now, there isn't much more I can do than that. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 18:51 JacobStrangelove wrote: I am going to reply to sonic in this post as quoted I am just saying he was mostly lurking day one but he had reasons. Sure he might be mafia with these same reasons but we are talking about real reasons that really happened. After that he has been much more active and helpful, this was not the extent of it though read the post right above this and you see my comment about pushing such a solid townie at the time. This said there has been some discussion over kush at the moment now that things have calmed down. (will get to this later) Fair enough. I will list the townish people most I have given reasons for before. Sonic Myself! Imcasey Drazak Killingtime(but I am watching him with a 10 foot pole) Kreb This leaves Stutters Kville xatalos and kush just now (who I am becoming aware of) Looking at this list kush defends stutters by avoiding talking about him (see drazaks post) this also leaves us seeing xatalos semi defending stutters. Kville is nowhere. See with a list like this town and scum you can see the links. A kush stutters xalalos team could be the answer. I would vote stutters instead of kville as if we vote kville we get nothing from he flip but you can see what we would gain from a stutters flip. HOWEVER stutters just posted turning my thoughts to confusion. To be open I will post this the way it was going to be but including stuff referring to the stutters thing. He says we won’t gain from a stutters flip if he flips town. If he flips scum however we would gain everything. So he says lynch killing. If killing flips mafia then I am probably confirmed town “yay” but if he flips green town town will instant lynch me. Which if stutters is mafia would win the game. Also would like to point out that a lynch on kville reveals nothing as well. Associative cases are pretty bad I must admit but they can provide a little information. I was attacking killingtime because he seemed to be ignoring the things I said about him in favour of just posting reads. The reason I town read you is you seem to have responded better initially so I temporarily town read you. I was getting frustrated as his semi avoidant approach however as the game went on he started replying in a manner that I would expect. The reason I attacked you and killing time so much is I realised you both thought in the same manner so 1. If you were both mafia we were screwed unless I could force you to make a slip early. 2. By attacking him I could have more to look at 3. If I could confirm you guys town it would make scum hunting so much easier. It wasn’t so much about scum slips you had made (I was just nitpicking) it was about forcing the two most scary people. Into a situation they probably would. Part of the reason I think he is town now is I haven’t found anything unusual in his postings. (Apart from a growing annoyance of me which is to be expected and I apologise for) Although there might be something in stutters case just now. Drazak seems to be having the same idea Although just a note kush is known for overreaction for no apparent reason. Yeah I understand, I was just really short for time at the time and wanted to get a post in reply up. On a side note how long till lynch? I think the night period messed up my internal clock. First and foremost I didn't say vote KillingTime. I want him to explain his lack of real contribution despite his long posts. This is exactly what I was talking about with lists. I'm not convinced he's scum but I want him to explain his non-committal attitude. You appear active and its a good guise to hide behind. I'm having a hard time understanding the rest of your points but I'll try to address them. When I flip town all you gain is that KillingTime pushed my lynch. This alone doesn't guarantee he's scum. You need to focus on the motivations behind posts. He could be a misguided townie which hands scum the game. If Killing gets lynched because of my post and he's town and they lynch me because of it and I'm Mafia, Mafia doesn't win the game. With a mislynch today we're at 5/3 which makes it mylo tomorrow. So if they lynched me and I'm mafia they're at 4/2 and still at mylo. There is no way this can be a powerplay from a scum me to ensure scum wins tonight. A lynch on Kville reveals nothing major either, true. But what it does is ensure that if he's town we don't have an idle town causing doubts during mylos for the rest of the game. That's what happened in Mini III and eventually they lynched him and cost them the game. There is also precedent in NMM for scum this bad (Thrawn mentions it in the post Kreb quoted). | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 19:53 Kreb wrote: Very good time to reveal your disdain for townreads I must say. But very well. I could argue about your claims being bad, but I cant really argue about whether you truly believe what you say or make it up. So this didnt put you in a worse spot to me. Not better either though, as it was a very standard reply from what you'd expect. Same here really. Cant double check what you do IRL. Standard reply. Neither putting you in a better nor worse light. This, however, does put you in worse light. There is much to respond? Why on earth would a townie not feel the need to respond to accusation?!?! And you are not giving me your best reads, you're giving us a read on KillingTime. Singular. And yes, there is certainly more things you could do. Overall score: -1 to your towncred for the last part good Sir. Please explain what is great about giving townreads? I have no reason currently to suspect you're scum but lets assume you were. Everyone in the game comes out as a town read on you and now you know you're in a position of leadership and can probably lead a mislynch/maybe two without really risking yourself. That isn't pro-town. Town reads do nothing except provide an easy way for people to contribute without actually saying anything of value. Check my previous game where I'm town, there's not a single town-read until mylo where we had to make assumptions. If you can give me a good reason to share them I gladly will but I can't see one. There isn't much to respond to regarding Thrawn. He felt I was more scummy than Cubu because the other townies were giving me too much credit for a more intelligent style of posting and that doesn't equate to being more town. I agree with that. However I didn't have time to post a bunch of cases day 1. I can't change that now so that is completely up to the person how the view my day 1. I'm attempting to fix that now. Like I've been saying all game your reads should be based off of motivations, not associations or minor things you find suspicious. You should pressure them for suspicious lines but to lynch someone off of one or two is foolish after day 1 (when there is significantly more to build off of). Regarding my read on KillingTown other than Kville who I've made my thoughts clear I don't like KillingTown's completely noncommittal play so far. I'm trying to post other reads but when I have to answer 3 people drilling questions into every response I have I haven't had time to stop and figure out what I want to ask my other top reads. | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 06 2012 20:53 Kreb wrote: Putting the answer in spoilers again because I consider the benefit/drawback discussion of townreads to be kinda off topic for the purpose of scumhunting. Especially with limited time left until D2 lynch. + Show Spoiler + -By giving townreads you show that you actively think about who is town and mafia, which mafia obviously doesnt have to do because they already know everything. -Its also a committal, by sharing your reads you show that you are willing to share your opinions of other and that you are open to people questioning these reads. A mafia would love to be able to sit silent and not commit to any (or as few as possible) reads. -Not to mention the fact that as a townie you wanna confirm as many other townies as possible. Both because then you know you can trust these players' motives and trust their opinions to be genuine, and also of course because instead of having to guess the mafia players among all active players, you can eliminate a few a and focus on the remaining when scumhunting. -It might help people if you die. If I die but people use my reads to finish the game in favor of town, thats awesome. Feel free to reply to any of these points. I'd prefer if you did it in spoilers to not turn it into a discussion. No matter if you reply to this or not, I wont reply to it more. My take on townreads shouldnt really be a matter of discussion when we're in it for the scumhunting. + Show Spoiler + I actually like the committal part. Hadn't really accounted for that. Although I still don't think its a strong as scum reads because its much easier for a questionable post to drop someone's town-cred than it is to gain it so these are much easier to back off of. Most people I honestly have doubts about but I've got a strong town read on you due to your incessant questioning and not backing down until you've made up your mind. Without a doubt the most pro-town player so far d2. I've got a slight town read on Sonic Death Monkey and Jacob but I would have to reread filters and double check. Those are more from an overview than scrutiny. I'm tired as hell at the moment so I'll go more into that when I wake up. My current top 4 reads: Kville - Adressed before. I think keeping him in is a mistake longterm. Currently he's my number 1 vote. KillingTime - See my previous posts. Currently my number 2 read. Need to hear his responses before I'm sold however. Kush - I need to reread the cases on him and his filter but I really want to see an answer to this post of drazak: On September 06 2012 17:28 drazak wrote: Alright, I was afk most of the day. First I'd like to point something out about Kush's posting behavior, he tries to downplay my accusations, and say that my case is bad, deciding that there is almost no case against him in his first responding post. Kush goes on to make /4/ posts responding to my accusation and then accusing me. In his posts, he either delays replying to me, which if my argument is weak, makes no sense, it should be simple to pick apart. In the meantime, I've been afk and have made 0. This seems like a bit over an overreaction if he's innocent and my accusation is weak. + Show Spoiler +
You sir, have made a big slip, every time you're accused you throw it right back at your accuser, this is the weakest of the defenses, espescially when your case is weak. I urge the rest of the town to actually look at my arguments, instead of dismissing them as a weak case, look through kush's filter, and the posts I've described and linked, he's made a large scumslip here, at first my accusations were fairly tenative due to having only moderate evidence, but instead of his defense making my case weaker, he's made it stronger. P.S. sorry for taking so long to post, was going to hours ago and then had dinner with a friend, when I got home I had other stuff to do on my other pc, and then fell asleep for a little after I got my laptop out. Additionally, I don't care who you think the town has a consensus on for possible lynch candidates today. If you had to consolidate the town votes onto 3 people who would your third be and why? Xatalos - Easily my 4th although him and Kush are interchangable for the most part in order. Xatalos spends all of his time defending and not actually finding scum. He's mia, promising explanations for his vote on imcasey and cubu but not providing. I'm currently not sure if I believe that he has 0 time because of the military. I need to look into this more but its very suspicious to me at the moment. Anyway that said I need to go to bed for a bit. I'll be back somewhere between 9-5 hours from lynch depending on when I wake up and take care of some errands. I'll definitely be here before lynchtime though. Currently though my best vote is without a doubt on Kville ##Vote Kville | ||
Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 07 2012 05:41 Kville wrote: Uhm I'm not wasting anything if you know this is a waste lynch then don't lynch this is an easy lynch scum is wanting to push through becuase of town like you. You guys are making this lynch wasteful not me. You even said yourselves that xatalos would prove more than I. So why not make todays lynch useful? Why are you killing off a townie like this for scum? I'm still willing to give you a chance if you actually start helping. You've done nothing except say "hey I'm not scum so you guys are wasting a day. Lynch him instead." For starters: How do you know he is town? I don't think anyone in this thread has had a townread on him in D2. Do you know something we don't? | ||
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