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Death Note Mini Mafia

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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1 2 3 Next All
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 29 2012 14:34 GMT
#30
/in
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 30 2012 21:09 GMT
#68
Last-minute replacement gogogo!
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 02:29 GMT
#83
I like Ryuk. Moar spam plox.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 02:40 GMT
#91
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 03:43 GMT
#113
On August 31 2012 12:39 HiroPro wrote:
No. I would policy lynch anyone who abstained.

Damnit Hiro, that was the secret ninja policy!
And @ Hapa - Good on you for being outrageous. Completely necessary this early in the game. As for your vote...haha?
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 05:30 GMT
#119
On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game.


Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post?

##Vote Hopeless1der


I'm saying I don't want to die, least of all to a policy lynch. I'd anticipate that most. if not all the players, would agree with that general sentiment. If people think I'm lurking, I don't want them to just lynch me with no discussion, I'd rather have the opportunity to make my thoughts known so that I could at least give the town something useful besides my flip. I want to make the most informed decision on who to lynch, instead of lynching by policy and getting very little out of it.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 15:23 GMT
#176
On August 31 2012 23:06 strongandbig wrote:
two to one he's town.

I've played like two games with him, and he was town in both of them, so he could be some kind of secret scum mastermind and I wouldn't know. But in one of the games I played with him I was really impressed because somehow he managed to just seem "townie" despite barely posting. (In the other game he didn't.)

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that he hasn't posted much, but I don't think that's a tell; and that his posts are pretty reasoned-out, but I think that's a sign of him trying to play to his strengths since he just got mislynched in PTP.

However, Hopeless - I don't really see much in the way of "actual opinions" or "positions" from you in the thread. I think you're probably town, but let me ask you - what do you think of the hapa situation, or Marv's zentor policy lynch?


Actual opinion time:

BMB's case against Hapa is shitty, and dare I say it, scummy.

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2012 16:19 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I sat down and read the whole thread now. I don't know Hapahauli's meta but I agree with Shady Sands' FOS. Hapahauli immediately breadcrumbs the VT rolename "detective" then qualifies/explains the post following it immediately.

Town wouldn't breadcrumb if they know mafia has a safeclaim and they wouldn't breadcrumb without knowing that. He didn't ask. Mafia, however, immediately like to abuse any defense they have. There is inherent guilt. If supplied with a safeclaim it's a very reasonable thing to do. I missed the Zephirrds post about the safeclaims because I'm very unattentive. When I first entered the thread, I only scanned and read the longer posts and made my comments about policy lynches. I forgot the game was starting tonight and saw my role PM right before I was about to watch a movie.

Why would a townie, after making a specific reference to his role name then immediately post that he will no longer be using real role names? Why would he even need to tell us that? Is he afraid someone is going to point it out as an inconsistency? the first two posts in the thread are him and they're both passively defensive. Scum like to announce things that are meaningless for some reason.

In his post history, he only goes on and on about lurkers and other bullshit like that. It's so tired and worthless. "Lurking is anti-town." What a revelation. Mafia are no more likely to lurk than town are and if town goes on a "let's kill the lurkers" bend how easy is it for the scum team to tell everyone on the team to just post a lot? It's stupid.

##vote Hapahauli

Also, just an aside regarding "reads". I consider them totally worthless. I will post and try to get someone lynched if I think they are mafia. I will not post a list of "suspects" or "reads" or make bullet points or anything like that. It has no value. Waste of a post. I almost made VE quit a game because I talked down on him so much for posting reads lists and other things like that so don't expect that out of me regardless of my alignment.


@The bolded in the first paragraph: BMB freely admits to not knowing Hapa's meta, but decides to make a case out of the first two posts of the game. Not just Hapa's first two, the first two of the game. Taking the brief moment it takes to review Hapa's game history:

1st post in NMMXXIII:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 06 2012 08:06 Hapahauli wrote:
‘Sup town!

Much to my delight, I’ve rolled Vanilla Townie this game – I hope strength in numbers shall prevail this game!

I ended up rolling mafia-goon in the last newbie game I played (Newbie Mafia XXI), and two members of my scumteam got away with blatant-lurking for days because of poor D1 discussion and a disorganized town. Our scumteam ended up winning that game in large part to this lack of productive discussion.

So to get things moving in a good direction, howabout some policy talk? I propose the following:
  • We will not lynch highly-active members D1! Often, the most active members in games are townies. I suggest we be very mindful of bandwagonning on active/controversial players D1 – they often get lynched in newbie games and almost always flip town.
  • We will focus our lynching efforts on less-active lurkers! Lack of discussion is bad for the town, and most mafia lurk/semi-lurk through the first few days of the game while they figure out how to play. I propose we keep the pressure up on non-posters day 1. Hell I don’t even mind a lynch-all-lurkers policy: in Newbie Mafia XXI, town would have had a 50% chance of lynching scum D1 if they went after lurking posters.



1st post NMMXXI:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 16 2012 09:35 Hapahauli wrote:
Hey folks! I rolled Vanilla Townie (again) - let's lynch us some scum!

Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 09:06 calgar wrote:
On July 16 2012 08:59 Evulrabbitz wrote:Since it's newbie games I feel people haven't really gotten a feel for their preferable playstyle and thus I deem meta analysis worthless.
I have to disagree with you here. We saw firsthand how hapa crushed hopeless last game with a thorough meta-analysis. This means it is at least worth something. Having said that, I think it will be less useful this game since those who saw what happened will be more careful to avoid similar mistakes. And some players (like me) have no history to analyze.


One of the lessons I learned from the last game (Newbie Mini Mafia XX) was how fickle meta-analysis can be. My case against Hopeless was mostly based around him mis-representing evidence and fingerpointing. The Meta was the icing on the cake. Also note that my cases/meta arguments against two players (Release and JingleHell) were ulitmately wrong. While meta has a place as supplemental evidence against players who are not self-aware of their own history, Otherwise, it lead you on a goose chase after a player who's in a bad mood in a particular game.

To re-iterate, meta is icing on the cake. We should always look for suspicious behavior and mafia-motive before even considering something like meta.

Suspicious behavior like the bolded part below:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 09:06 calgar wrote:
---SNIP---
And some players (like me) have no history to analyze.



That's a really subtle way to point out your newbieness. That's some mafia behavior right there.

FOS calgar




1st post NMMXX:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 05 2012 11:37 Hapahauli wrote:
Hai folks! Just opened my inbox to much relief: I'm a Vanilla Townie!

I would like to cast an FOS on JingleHell, who's actions in day 1 have been nothing but contradictions so far.

Show nested quote +
Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point.

Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things.

Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away.


Show nested quote +
##Vote YourHarry


JingleHell opens the game by decrying D1 voting as "nonsense in newbie games," then immediately fires one out himself. When Harry replies with the innocent, "why is lightning fast vote scummy," JingleHell posts:

Show nested quote +
EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote.


Not only does this not address Harry's question, but it has an incredibly defensive tone when he was not yet attacked. Sounds to me like someone who is very paranoid in the early game...

Show nested quote +
I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.


Show nested quote +
Oh, and bear in mind, I won't do this if a case gets made. I let people make their own counter-claim. I only stepped in because I see random D1 votes as so dangerous in our newbie games.


JingleHell posts another crusade against bandwagoning and day 1 voting, despite his earlier vote against YourHarry. In addition, he's very adamant (almost panicked) about this "avoiding bandwagoning" business. From a townie perspective, what incentive does he have to discourage bandwagnoning only a few hours into the game? I would understand if this was a day or a half-a day before the lynch, but seeing who does and does not bandwagon provides us townies with time to provide good reads. It makes no sense to take such a staunch anti-bandwagoning platform so quickly into the game.

Finally, Jingle Hell has been content to laugh off a legitimate post against his early-game behavior by lazermonkey.

Lazer's post ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&currentpage=7#132

Show nested quote +
I can't decide what to laugh at first, but at least now people are explaining votes.

If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance.


No defense, and completely ignores a topic worthy of response.

In conclusion, FOS on JingleHell. His actions regarding D1 voting are contradictory, and he's taken a very suspicious stance on anti-bandwagnoning so early into day 1.




I'm seeing a trend here. None of this is indicative of Hapa's alignment, but it's depressing to see that BMB couldn't be bothered to look into Hapa's meta.

Instead, Hapa is clearly posting with inherent guilt, clearly trying to breadcrumb his 'fakeclaim' and assumes Hapa didn't know about mafia getting the fake claims. That wasn't the point of his post...that's just how he opens games. To make it the basis for a case is lazy and foolish.

He also pushes the policy talk into his case against Hapa. Why is that scummy again? It was scarcely 5 hours into the game.

Marv and ghost, you seem to think this goes into WIFOM on whether BMB knows his case is bad and he's baiting. Can you answer whether or not YOU would have bothered to check Hapa's "opening-post meta" before basing a case around it?

Either way, BMB is the scummiest looking player to me.



As for Zentor...from what I saw in MadMen, I'd be inclined to agree with a policy lynch, but then...

[Stating the obvious] I want to lynch scum [/Stating the obvious]

Pressure him, and if he doesn't respond, then sure, lynch the sucker. I'd rather give him a chance to begin with though. There's always the possibility that he is in fact useful.




Deadline is 7:30 pm for me. I should have no issue with being active leading up to it.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 17:27 GMT
#211
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 02:16 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 02:07 strongandbig wrote:
...

So the problem with your first point is "bad =\= scum." There are bad townies who don't try very hard to help the town, and if we want to win we need to be lynching scum. Still, another true thing is "thinking bad = scum =\= scum", although "bad=scum" is something scum do sometimes try to push.


What does this even have to do with my first point? I'm suggesting that players who lurk in this format deserve suspicion. This has nothing to do with "bad townies" or whatever. Also, this ain't a newbie game, and I think everyone here knows that lurking is bad for town.

Also, I have no idea what your last sentence there means...

Show nested quote +
On the other thing, I guess you have a point - I think hopeless was being reasonable, but if you thought otherwise and your vote was a pressure vote I guess it could have a town motivation. It would have been really suspicious if you'd just tried to tunnel in on that, though.


So I'll take it you're no longer suspicious of me then?

Show nested quote +
Also, many people need to post more in the next few hours. Actually, what if we RNG the policy lynch between the lurkers? That might actually have a better chance of hitting scum than just choosing one, since scum couldn't nudge the RNG towards a scummy lurker. My lurker list currently reads: node, zentor, palmar, solarsail, and mkfuba, although mkfuba will be off soon if he keeps posting like he said he would. Still guys, node hasn't posted since his /in. With Palmar he could be doing anything on purpose as part of some kind of "plan", but he also has only posted once since the game started. If people are proposing a lurker lynch, I think we should come up with a list that a majority of us can agree on and then RNG it using some method.


No. It prevents players from taking stances on specific players. Sure we could end up lynching a lurking townie D1 - it happens. But the votes give us so much information for future days, and an "RNG" vote deprives us of this.

Show nested quote +
On the other hand, Marv seems to be proposing a "lynch zentor because he doesn't try" policy lynch. I just don't feel comfortable with that this early in the game, given how grush changed his style in the ptp game. People do change. Still, if zentor doesn't post again a few times before the deadline, I could get on board with it.


I didn't see anything in Marv's filter about MrZentor... you're talking about momentoss, right?


Hapa...Are you being deliberately obtuse?

On August 31 2012 19:35 marvellosity wrote:
why aren't we policy lynching zentor

On August 31 2012 21:54 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 21:51 Mementoss wrote:
On August 31 2012 19:35 marvellosity wrote:
why aren't we policy lynching zentor


Im not familiar with zentor fill me in


is actively self-aware he's useless, could choose to be not useless, but purposefully chooses to be useless nonetheless


SnB's point with the bad town vs scum discussion is that scummy players will pick up on things that are bad for town and try to exploit them into a mislynch. He's semi-accusing you of doing this because your assumption that all players know lurking is bad means that the only people who will lurk are either Scum or they're just bad at this game, i.e. Bad Townies. There are no other options based on the way you've explained yourself. You also want to consider lurking to be an exclusively scum trait, which is completely untrue.

Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 17:34 GMT
#213
On July 06 2012 21:47 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 21:45 MrZentor wrote:
YAYA VE!

What's the Kenpachi rule...?


First person to attack the VT claim is scum.

Only works for ken though. So we're not lynching BL. Especially as he's one of the only players actually making an effort.

I like my search function =D
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 00:47 GMT
#434
Sorry I'm a little late here. I think mementoss is town based on his responses to the case against him. I'm null on Palmar overall, and he's next likeliest to be lynched, so I'll lynch him over MMtoss.

##Vote: Palmar

I don't buy into what Hapa is selling right now. Hapa tried to sway Hiro AWAY from his read on MMtoss:

On September 01 2012 07:04 HiroPro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 06:55 Hapahauli wrote:
Howbout this stuff?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&currentpage=13#258

Solid post, good logic, and I agree with most of what he says (still believe BM24 to be more scummy than Shady). Shouldn't that absolve him a bit?


It's ok. The problem I have is that he ignored the brunt of the case (which is how he says he's unclear about Zentor but then later in the same post says that Hapa is soft-defending Zentor and they're scum buddies together) and focused on small things to reply to instead.


Hapa is really off the wall today. Can't or won't sit still and he seems to see scum at every other post. I can't take him very seriously right now, but I think he's town.

Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 01:02 GMT
#447
Okay well BMB has already gone through why Hapa's case doesn't demonstrate Hiro to be scummy.
Hapa still has a point regarding who does Hiro think is scum.
Hiro? If your around, we'd be much obliged.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 01:06 GMT
#450
On September 01 2012 10:04 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 09:59 BlackMamba24 wrote:
On September 01 2012 09:55 Hapahauli wrote:
He showed NO intention of dropping his read against MMToss until I confronted him about it, then insta-dropped his read!

That was the post I was referring to. It didn't satisfy HiroPro but it satisfied you so how can you say he dropped his suspicions too quick when you dropped them even quicker?

He didn't drop it because you pressured it, he didn't drop it until MMtoss directly answered his question and main point of his case. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that...


You actually buy that?

Do you think like that as a townie? Clearly not, or you would've accepted the first defense that SnB posted against you insteantly. You don't see it as strange that Hiro doesn't pressure him any more than that after posting his case? Like he insta-dropped his suspicions man.


No he wouldn't. Or rather, I wouldn't. Read the argument presented and THEN make a decision. Your reasoning here is terrible and its things like that that make me want to ignore your cases in general.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 01:18 GMT
#457
To be honest, I don't think you are either.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 16:45 GMT
#618
I'm unconcerned with the merits of SnB's claim. I'm concerned with the fact that his initial claim was intended to reveal all the information he had regarding him being 'miller' and to inform us of what happens. His explanation was he'll return scum to some checks and town to some checks. No details on the when or why it might be one or the other.

Also of note:

I am a self-aware miller.

Is there some rule against using the flavor? It's incredibly relevant in a themed game with a Closed setup.

Once Hiro puts two and two together,
we get this from SnB:
my role PM says that rolechecks on me before half the players in the game are dead will return detective and after that point they will return suspicious detective.

It was in his Role PM. This didn't get suddenly revealed later. It's also way easier to understand how the return check mechanics work as opposed to
I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town.


Blatant lie in an effort to save himself from DT checks...because he's scum. This is pretty cut and dry.

##Vote: StrongandBig

Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 17:26 GMT
#622
No, his 'explanation' is that as long as half the players are alive, he'll return town. I'm going to take half as an integer meaning 8 players dead = half.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 01 2012 18:00 GMT
#624
Aside from just sheeping you on ghost, which I do agree with, I also think Shady is scummy.
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 02 2012 01:38 GMT
#679
An hour early isn't it?
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 02 2012 01:40 GMT
#684
Welp okay then.
##Vote: Shady Sands
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 02 2012 01:41 GMT
#688
Herp a Derp...should I unvote now or something?
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
September 02 2012 01:43 GMT
#695
On September 02 2012 10:42 Shady Sands wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2012 10:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Welp okay then.
##Vote: Shady Sands

Why?


I'll get to that once today's lynch is confirmed.
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