EPTNewbie Mini XII
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
Sorry to do this, but: Millers - they are listed on the "remaining list" but not on the "Roles and Setup Info"; so are there potentially millers in this game? Vigilante has only 1 bullet? Hypothetically, if the Framer frames the Godfather, does he return 'Mafia'? When a mafia dies, will we be told specifically if they were goon, framer, rolecop, etc? Jailer protects from "1kp and roleblock" : so if the jailed player is targeted by multiple kps they would die? If they are "protected from roleblock" does that imply that their action still occurs, or is being jailed the same as being roleblocked? Does jailing also prevent investigation by detective or rolecop; does it also prevent being framed? What happens if Jailkeeper and Mafia Drug-Roleblocker act on each other? Drugged players are informed; are jailed players informed? | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
Thank you, sir. I find it amusing to imagine someone being chloroformed and tied up and have no idea it happened when they wake. @Gummy Because he can, the framer is a crazy person, and it defies natural logic which television tells us is the best way to confuse and defeat a superior logical opponent.  | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
Hello, gl hf. @Gummy, yes, but not intentionally esoteric; in the digital, internet age nothing stays that way. As this is "newbie" and Day 1, I would just ask that we be clear, concise, and focused. We should not be posting impulsively or without a purpose. Don't spam our own good points away. That is to say, Gummy and paschl, I assume you are excited and want to do the most to be helpful; however, your initial back-and-forth seemed to me as distracting, reflexive, and spammy, which hardly helps us focus to start the game off. My knee-jerk reaction to seeing your discussion felt like you two got online together with the intention of distracting us with your page long short post conversation where you immediately compliment one another and suggest the other is surely clean, fun, and innocent. Posting random lists of people is actually suspicious as it creates a false illusion of being helpful while contributing nothing; especially in a short 9 player game. Gummy's first posts include 'suspecting the size of the Mafia faction to be 2' to be helpful, when it is clear in the rules that there are indeed 2 Mafia and 7 Town. I don't mean to be rude, I just want to make sure for the sake of our survival that we all read the setup and rules thoroughly to avoid having to discuss things that are indeed facts not speculation. i.e. FirmTofu asking something clearly stated in the setup rules. @Gummy: I don't believe the framer can frame himself, just as the medic cannot heal himself, or the jailer jail himself, etc. I would not jump to any conclusions about Ange because the first post lacked a sentence that explicitly role-claimed. We should read posts to analyze players' motives and let that inform us of their roles. Without a specific plan to use a claim to some end, claiming immediately serves no purpose. Everyone is going to claim Town without a specific flavor until it helps them somehow. I suggest that if Claw stands by his medic claim, he keep the mafia uncertain of what he will do. Given Claw can't heal himself, it was bold to come forward, but the mafia cannot know if there is a jailer or another medic to protect Claw. To be honest though, I don't see the benefit he is seeking with the claim. It is very dangerous to suggest detectives role claim immediately for you to heal, but maybe I'm misreading you. Medics, protect whoever in the town is making the most sense. | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
DT claiming on Day 1... so either you are a DT and the mafia does everything they can to kill you asap, or you are a liar and we lynch you in the first couple days. Either way, this claim seems very suicidal. What kind of information do we get from it? If you are just a townie and you die soon, I fail to see how we get any info. If you are a DT, maybe you live one night and give us one report, which will likely be a confirmation of someone as Town. (The DT does not see roles, only alignment.) If you are mafia, then you bank on there not being another DT to start a lynch on you Day 2; you draw a lot of attention to yourself with the belief that you are safe because no Vig will target you and no town would lynch you before catching the lie; as a mafia you could simply pass us Town reports on people and be remis about not finding Mafia; all the while you kill us off one by one. @Gummy: You have already labeled 3 players as useless. It's still somewhat early, so I don't think that judgement can be made and only helps if your goal is to prompt them to talk more. @Aces, they cannot prove their roles on Day 1. The mere fact that they were foolish and bold enough to claim, however, suggests that they are not likely Mafia and we are safer waiting til Day 2 to even consider lynching one of them. We should only lynch if it gives us information and lynching either of them Day 1 would give us far less info than letting them make it to the night. | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
(dahdum is correct, and Gummy and paschl are wrong.) In this game, LAL is best. It is wrong to suggest that Town all have an incentive to lie. An honest Townie can be quite powerful. Once a Town player has lied, even with good intentions, the rest of us can no longer trust him for the remainder of the game. Hence, there is no justifiable reason for us to lie. And since we need at least one plan to stick with, we should lynch all proven liars. Claw, I think you are overthinking things. The Mafia will not avoid hitting you because they think you are lying: they are just as likely to hit a townie by randomly hitting someone else, so their best bet is to hit you with the chance of you having been honest (since liars get lynched). A revealed DT and medic are not going to be left living after 2 nights. The Mafia cannot and will not risk letting Tofu live any longer than that because with only 2 members they can't afford the chance he is DT and manages to finger one of them. | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Just to put it out there: the setup could hypothetically be 2 medics as the towns power roles. In spite of that, we all seem to agree is likely that at least one of the current medic claims is a lie. (Note that both could be lies.) What do we learn by lynching Claw today? If he flips Medic, then in all likelihood we either see Gummy killed tonight or lynched tomorrow. If Gummy then flips Medic, the town is doomed. If Gummy then flips town, we learn nothing and are in a bad position. If Gummy flips Mafia, then we are in a good position. If we lynch Claw today and he flips Townie? Then again, the town and any vigilante will be compelled to kill Gummy. If Claw flips Mafia, then we cheer and Gummy is trusted but also likely is killed by mafia. Lynching Tofu today produces similar scenarios. Lynching Gummy as Matriach suggests? Well, if Gummy flipped Town then we would have to kill Claw. If Gummy flipped Mafia, then we would trust Claw. But note, that if Gummy dies tonight, we still either kill Claw or have him confirmed on Day 2. If Claw dies tonight, then if he is town we turn against Gummy. If Claw dies tonight and flips Mafia, or if Claw doesn't die, then we can lynch him on Day 2. If Tofu dies tonight and flips Town, we lynch Claw. Now if Gummy is town, the Mafia will be more likely to kill him than Claw. So we stand to confirm or condemn one of Gummy, Claw, or Tofu based on whichever one of them dies. How can the Mafia not kill one of them if all 3 have claimed blue roles? If none of the 3 die and a random townie dies? Then all 3 have to prove their claims on Day 2 and if Tofu gives us a report we let him live for another day, while we either lynch who he claims is red or if his report greens someone then we lynch the least trusted Medic-claimee hoping the medic lives and Tofu provides a second report on Day 3. If these outcomes sound flawed, please let me know. Look, Gummy is playing aggressive, loud, and loose. I understand the logic behind his vote on Claw. But I remain unconvinced that we, today, can be 99% certain Claw is Mafia, or that Claw and Tofu are mafia colluding on their claims. Why would, with only 2 players, the mafia claim to be blue. There is no rational scenario in which the town doesn't lynch someone who claims blue and then lives for another 2 nights. The role claims draw far too much attention and responsibility upon them, especially DT, to be a good rational mafia strategy plan. Mafia want to blend in by 'nodding with the town' not being 'nodded at'. If they indeed turn out to be mafia, they have already lost even if we don't lynch one today. If, however, more likely they are Town either being honest or vanilla townie trying to confuse mafia, we only hurt ourselves by mislynching one of them on Day 1. Gummy, imo, really hurt himself and, if he is town, the town by making that ultimatum threat. It's hard to trust someone willing to quit on us. It's also hard to keep up with someone who posts so much. You could form just as, if not more so, convincing an argument without spamming every thought you have. Tofu, whether he's a bad DT or a bad mafia, clearly seemed to believe there would be at least 3 blue roles, which is fairly unlikely when thinking about balance. (At the same time, I'd like to point out to anyone studying paschl's list of previous setups, that there is nothing statistically informative about 6 data points.) dahdum, at the moment, is Town-ish. His posts have echoed some of my own thought processes, so for the time being I'll overlook his low amount of posts. Matriarch has failed to post enough actual content for me to place any trust in her yet. Ange seems very inexperienced but at the same time his/her second post bothers me: + Show Spoiler + On May 01 2012 09:04 Ange777 wrote: Ok, I am a townie. But: Isn't it better to abstain from any roleclaiming? Otherwise isn't it easier to identify the special roles? Furthermore scum could just claim to be regular townies and right now we have no way to prove anything. I would have thought claiming to be a townie is just as suspicious as saying nothing about it but hey, I don't have any experience in this game  On May 01 2012 09:12 Ange777 wrote: But then we will just have 9 people claiming to be townie. I don't understand what kind of information you will get from that. On May 03 2012 01:27 Ange777 wrote: 2) Claw is the real medic and you are desperate to kill him before someone reveals you as scum. Although this logic is flawed as everbody would blame you if Claw flipped blue. Or you are playing a huge mindgame and already calculated that possibility? God, this is just soo confusing ... Aces thought that if Claw and Tofu were as claimed it would a dream scenario for the town with Tofu's plan, which makes no sense because I still fail to see how any player imagines that somehow they would live forever in that scenario. Why does Aces beg us to "please believe that he is vanilla townie and not scummy"? paschl spams at the start, claims townie, then claims he never claimed townie or a role. Well into his spam just posts "This is gonna be fun", great more spam. Fails to thoroughly read the rules and setup. Has posted a few unnecessary lists and then voted for dahdum for not posting much in his opinion (in comparison to paschl and Gummy, everyone is a mime). As I don't feel I can say 99% someone is mafia, I feel no lynch day 1 is better for us than a mislynch. How often have you seen a Day 1 lynch be mafia and not mislynch? Mafia want us to help them by mislynching the first couple days, why would the mafia draw attention to themselves or lie on day 1 and potentially get caught in the noose's spotlight? ##Vote: No Lynch | ||
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
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DeMorcerf
United States56 Posts
On Day 1, I doubt both mafia will be caught pushing and voting for the lynch of a town; they wouldn't need. Generally, they can just watch the town damage itself by grabbing onto a poorly written post or a bad town player. I doubt if we had lynched a town on Day 1 we would find the mafia from it. + Show Spoiler + I agreed with you that it was so flawed that it shouldn't have been posted --- that statement and the meta-comment on it were fairly useless and distracted from the rest of your post. Gummy would be the immediate lynch target if Claw turned to be blue; no mind-game could undo that. On May 03 2012 06:29 Ange777 wrote: @DeMorcerf: While I do understand your logic I don't believe No lynch is better than possibly mislynching. By voting for a lynch we will be able to see who voted on whom and why. No lynch just gives scum an excuse not to make a case against someone. You are correct that by lynching one of the three potential blue roles we might mislynch. But lynching is the only way to get more information about the motives of every votes. If we just wait for night, scum can pick a target and we only get to know what colour they flipped. With this little information it would be really hard to reveal scum on day 2. If I missed some point, please tell me. Regarding my role claiming: I thought this was normal seeing all the other players roleclaiming. I merely wanted to state that I don't think it will be of much use. I admit being a first time player I am probably easier to influence so next time being pressured to role claim I will think first and then post Can you please explain why I should not have posted that? @Gummy: I said I agreed with your deduction that if "I'm medic, Claw is lying. Lying is suspicious. Lynch him." I wasn't convinced that your claim was true or that he's obvious mafia; he has now though become increasingly bad at the game. You post a lot of "info"; well, some of that info is useless or redundant, and I think you should wait for more people to chime in between your posts. We will have information Day 2 that we did not have Day 1. We will not just be in the same situation minus one town. To say such overlooks the fact that if one of the blue-claimees die we will see their true role and can argue other members' alignments based on how they spoke of the dead. If no one dies, then we can assume that indeed medics/jailers are out there. If a red dies, we know there was a vig. If a random town member dies, we can then thoroughly examine his posts and people who mentioned him prior, as well as speculate that maybe mafia feared one of the medics being real. + Show Spoiler + If we are talking about Near Eastern mythology and folklore, then I have to plug Ferdowsi's "Shahnameh". It's epic and not just because it's an epic poem. | ||
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