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Basically it's a 3 racks/factory/starport push that hits at about 13 minutes with 35+marines/3 thors/5banshees/a raven/scvs.
I tried colossus/gateway, immortal/gateway, and chargelot/archon and all got rolled pretty hard. My micro wasn't great by any means, but neither was the terrans. I think the col/gateway would be strongest, I just have to meet the terran at midfield and kite with colossus/stalker.
HT with storm/feedback sounds reasonable too, but I didn't have time to check it out. I'm just hesitant to resort to templar tech, as it's hard to identify if it's this push or a standard 1/1/1, considering the fast raven can snipe obs. The last two games I didn't scout properly because the terran and I were just practicing and trying to come up with a composition that is good vs it. The first game I didn't know what he was doing for sure, and that was my response. Masters toss vs masters terran btw.
Anyone have any experience dealing with this or replays beating it? I know there was a thread about it from like march, but it wasn't terribly helpful IMO.
gateway/colossus
http://drop.sc/28032
immortal/gateway
http://drop.sc/28033
chargelot/archon
http://drop.sc/28034
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I've encountered the same problem a couple times and have tried both the immortal gateway and chargelot archon builds to no avail =\ I'm gonna tentatively agree with you that gateway/colossus might be the best way to do it, as the main problem for me is the scvs repairing the thors D= Sure I could surround and kill them with zealots or archons or something, but by then the rest of the terran army has gone and killed everything, so i'm left with nothing facing a giant bio force and possibly still thors. Collosi focusing down scvs and bio seems like it might work, though I'd like to see if anyone else has an answer.
Actually storm sounds like it could be viable too, but I feel like you might be a bit too frail if he manages to split and dodge your storms well.
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This was posted in another thread, but I don't want to stray too far from that thread's topic, so I'll respond here.
Not viable. Dies flat out to a 4 gate. You dont even scout in one of them. Also the P players you are playing against also see to refuse to scout. No expo at 9 min and they arent cutting probes.... or suiciding a probe to see whats up.
Im not saying you wont win some games with it. But the build is not solid, it auto dies to too many common P builds. You dont even put up 1 bunker
Typically the T does it with a bunker and holds 4gate with repair, and easily once the thor is out, we were just experimenting compositions really (but he is super successful on NA masters ladder using this build). As for the lack of scouting, I mentioned why in this thread but not the other. Btw I'm the toss player lol
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Ah lol thought you were the T. To be honest this is too late. If they scout the can kinda do anything and win. Colossus gateway is generally good.
1 bunker is not enough to hold a 4 gate, trust me ive done this a lot. You need 2. So you need to scout well. 3 gate void all in rapes this so hard. Like. Its not even funny.
Its a good build, but you want to get there by 11 so there are 2 colossus out at most.
Ill try and find some of my replay of me doing it, Ill look for a loss but i doubt ill find one in my unsaved.
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On August 19 2011 09:28 Squigly wrote:
Ah lol thought you were the T. To be honest this is too late. If they scout the can kinda do anything and win. Colossus gateway is generally good.
1 bunker is not enough to hold a 4 gate, trust me ive done this a lot. You need 2. So you need to scout well. 3 gate void all in rapes this so hard. Like. Its not even funny.
Its a good build, but you want to get there by 11 so there are 2 colossus out at most.
Ill try and find some of my replay of me doing it, Ill look for a loss but i doubt ill find one in my unsaved.
sounds good
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Hey, I am a platinum terran who plays very similar to this style.
I use a 2/1/1 that hits a touch faster but with smaller numbers: 28-30 marines 3 thors 3 banshees and 1 raven.
Archon/Zealot can usually hold my first push if well controlled but has no answer for round two (I expand behind the first push).
Immortal/Zealot may handle the thors if and only iff you have enough immortals, and if you managed charge will likely take out the marines, but the banshees will clean house on your probes/pylons while I make round two and I have rarely seen roudn two fail to this comp.
Collosus/Gateway can work but it takes good control and atleast 3, preferably 4-5 cols.
6gate mass blink stalekr works if you out micro me/catch me unaware, but is risky.
Voidrays work with stalekr support, BUT if you let the marines get them its over.
templar tech rapes this build, if you do it right. if you have storm, kill the scv's and marines. DO NOT FEED BACK THORS as the raven and banshees will clean up. Feed back my air units and watch the no-upgrade thors and marines die so fast.
Just my experiences. hope they help.
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On August 20 2011 12:56 Ironsights wrote:
Hey, I am a platinum terran who plays very similar to this style.
I use a 2/1/1 that hits a touch faster but with smaller numbers: 28-30 marines 3 thors 3 banshees and 1 raven.
Archon/Zealot can usually hold my first push if well controlled but has no answer for round two (I expand behind the first push).
Immortal/Zealot may handle the thors if and only iff you have enough immortals, and if you managed charge will likely take out the marines, but the banshees will clean house on your probes/pylons while I make round two and I have rarely seen roudn two fail to this comp.
Collosus/Gateway can work but it takes good control and atleast 3, preferably 4-5 cols.
6gate mass blink stalekr works if you out micro me/catch me unaware, but is risky.
Voidrays work with stalekr support, BUT if you let the marines get them its over.
templar tech rapes this build, if you do it right. if you have storm, kill the scv's and marines. DO NOT FEED BACK THORS as the raven and banshees will clean up. Feed back my air units and watch the no-upgrade thors and marines die so fast.
Just my experiences. hope they help.
If you feedback the raven before PDD thats game right there. Feedbacking Thors does work fine, not sure what your on about. The thors are the damage dealers. If its a decent push they shouldnt have storm yet.
Archons rape banshees in numbers like this. Archons rape terran in general before ghosts. Just feedback whatever you feel like. Make archons. Win. Especially if youve expod behind your all in (????????)
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I would try a blink stalker play with observer to harass the T to death, especially on maps with large mains. By the time he moves out, he won't have anywhere close to 30+ marines.
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I've never been up against this kind of push this late, it usually comes a minute or two after my own natural is set up. The reason its so hard for toss to hold is because it comes a time when they can't don't have the right kind of units to hold it.
So if the terran waits until 13 minutes to push, I would try to get templar up with for feedback if not storm, but like other people said you would need a lot of gates to back it up.
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On August 20 2011 13:02 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 12:56 Ironsights wrote:
Hey, I am a platinum terran who plays very similar to this style.
I use a 2/1/1 that hits a touch faster but with smaller numbers: 28-30 marines 3 thors 3 banshees and 1 raven.
Archon/Zealot can usually hold my first push if well controlled but has no answer for round two (I expand behind the first push).
Immortal/Zealot may handle the thors if and only iff you have enough immortals, and if you managed charge will likely take out the marines, but the banshees will clean house on your probes/pylons while I make round two and I have rarely seen roudn two fail to this comp.
Collosus/Gateway can work but it takes good control and atleast 3, preferably 4-5 cols.
6gate mass blink stalekr works if you out micro me/catch me unaware, but is risky.
Voidrays work with stalekr support, BUT if you let the marines get them its over.
templar tech rapes this build, if you do it right. if you have storm, kill the scv's and marines. DO NOT FEED BACK THORS as the raven and banshees will clean up. Feed back my air units and watch the no-upgrade thors and marines die so fast.
Just my experiences. hope they help. If you feedback the raven before PDD thats game right there. Feedbacking Thors does work fine, not sure what your on about. The thors are the damage dealers. If its a decent push they shouldnt have storm yet. Archons rape banshees in numbers like this. Archons rape terran in general before ghosts. Just feedback whatever you feel like. Make archons. Win. Especially if youve expod behind your all in (????????)
Sorry, was in a hurry at work and didn't elaborate enough I suppose. I shall do so now.
Indeed, killing the raven before PDD is game. Period. Feedbacking thors is only good if you have killed the raven and banshees, or have enough units to otherwise overpower the push. The banshees are the real deathdealers here, the thors are the tanks. Thor shots are far slower than banshees, but do the SAME damage to immortals, meaning you need the banshees to cleanup the immortals. Feed back those, and its over if immortals are also on the field.
However, most templar play will not have a robo, so you may still think the banshees are no big deal, but they do have great DPS, meaning if the thors are tanking the hits while getting repaired, the banshees will kill willy nilly. If you feedback the thors and DONT immediately focus one down, I will have them repaired fast enough that the feedback was a waste, and you will likely lose. If however you have a significant ball of templar laying around, sure feedback the thors too.
Zealot archon is hit or miss at best. Sure, the archons can rape the banshees, but the thors are raping the archons so it really comes down to unit control. The only time I have lost to zealot archon is when I hit too late and charge was already up OR when a key feedback landed against my raven/banshees. Luckily at my level most Archon users dont have templar laying around, and tend to warp in emergency zealots when seeing the thors. When the zealot archon DOES hold, most toss have lost nearly their whole army and probably their natural. Since I expanded and macro'd up, when my push dies i usually have another of nearly the same size minus a few marines waiting in the base. That is the push that will end it if the toss tries to recover. If he goes all in from there, then I may or may not be able to hold.
One more note on the push should hit before storm thing: some toss I have played against opt for a storm rush: storm is ready well in advance of my slow ass thors waddling into the natural.
Hope I made my experences more clear.
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Robo play with heavy zealots is the easy way to stomp this. Force pdd some where not in your nat, mix in 2 or so immortals with 2 etc colossi, and win. Try snipe some rines with the colossi and it makes it much easier.
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EPT
